The Deuterocanonicals...again, I'm sure

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Tell you what, ask one of the apologists here at CAF whether or not prior to Trent a catholic could hold a varying opinion of the canon and still be, for lack of a better term, in good standing with the church. The answer will be yes. Ask Michuta, I’m sure you can find his website with a simple search.
We Catholics don’t feel oppressed because we aren’t able to come up with our own definition of the canon. To possess the knowledge that we belong to Christ’s Church is what true freedom is all about.
Please show me where in a catechism or a council your church has stated that scripture is the “primary” source for doctrine.
I know your church says that its doctrines aren’t supposed to contradict scripture, but that (even if it’s true) is not the same as having scripture as the primary source.
You need not look for direct statements that Scripture is the “primary” source for doctrine. The Catholic Church is based on the full Gospel. Look at the evidence directly–read the encyclicals, Church Council documents, other writings of our Popes, and the Catechism if you think we don’t base our doctrines on the Bible. Read “Dei Verbum” for example:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

Also don’t fool yourself. If you believe in the Trinity and if you accept a canon of Scripture, you rely on tradition as much as (or more than) we do.
 
I should add that scripture is, and always has been the PRIMARY source for doctrine, but not the only source. Profitable, yes, but not exclusive.
You need not look for direct statements that Scripture is the “primary” source for doctrine. The Catholic Church is based on the full Gospel. Look at the evidence directly–read the encyclicals, Church Council documents, other writings of our Popes, and the Catechism if you think we don’t base our doctrines on the Bible.
FWIW, I believe care should be taken with this idea of a Primary source. The Church does not teach Prima Scriptura. As we know, the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus directly and personally instructed by Him through His teaching of the Apostles. We also know the early Church was growing and flourishing before the New Testament was even written. This was accomplished through the handing on of the faith via Tradition. At the same time, Scripture is not simply the memories of the evangelists committed to writing, but is in fact a distinct channel of revelation, being the Word of God written under the direction of the Holy Spirit. Therefore the Church speaks of two modes of transmission (Tradition and Scripture) of the one sacred deposit of faith which are to be given equal devotion and reverence, for “Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ…”
 
Okay…when was the canon first “officially” defined?

Every catholic apologist I’ve ever heard confidently states that Trent was the first binding declaration of the canon. The other councils were apparently regional and not binding on the whole church.
in TRUTH, JESUS is all authority. We are subject to that authority. The real question isn’t, when, or how, or what, why, or where, but “who”?

If you see “who” is authority, then you hear the voice of the LORD. Those who hear HIS voice do not hear other masters. JESUS asked, “and why even among yourselves do you not discern that which is just?” . … this question in rooted in teh question that JESUS asked the Apostles, “Who do you say JESUS is?” . … some are saying that JESUS is the Bible, but then say we talk directly to JESUS, how is that possible, and not then believe what JESUS tells you? . . .

Is the Bible GOD? It is interesting within the word in English “authority” is “author” and GOD is the author of TRUTH, and indeed is TRUTH, and by HIS WORD all things are made.

The real question is who has authority? we all agree, it is JESUS. Some say so because they read it in the Bible then proceed to say what the Bible is: Haven’t they decided they can reform GOD and thereby made themselves authority, gods even to make GOD what they like? Making the Bible an idol. (more evidence for this can be found in attempts to use the Bible for diviniation and prophecy like the Bible Codes and other heretical prophets of the secular and protestant domain).

The answer is of course JESUS has all authority, but we must answer the question who is JESUS. We cannot answer this until we discern the BODY OF CHRIST, and only by JESUS CHRIST can we come to GOD OUR FATHER. . . when we properly discern that JESUS is present in the HOLY EUCHARIST, BODY, BLOOD, SOUL AND DIVINITY at every Catholic Mass . … We’ve come to a startling conclusion . … THE WORD OF GOD gives us the FULNESS OF THE TRUTH which is fed to us the flock at the mass . … in the liturgy of the WORD, in the liturgy of the EUCHARIST . … SONG FOOD = SON OF GOD (an anagram) . …

Once we see that THE BODY OF CHRIST is the Roman Catholic Church and that JESUS is the HEAD of the BODY we then know that the inerrant teaching about which teachings are inerrant are only by the LORD HIMSELF who is inerrant and can only be known through CHRIST OUR LORD through HIS BODY on Earth . … Therefore we must agree that the duetorocanonicals are inspired works of the Canon of Sacred Scripture and not necessarily the only inspired works of GOD, as we also adhere to Sacred Traditions laid down by the HOLY SPIRIT through the Early Church Fathers and are no less infallible and inerrant than the writings of Moses because they are from CHRIST OUR LORD.

And visa versa we must see that apostacy begins with the denial of the real presence and therefore there is a necessary errancy in the bootleg propoganda of renegade mavrick preachers, who being blind guides armed only with a prayer and the Bible proceed to try to reform CHRIST . … Instead it is ourselves who need to reform, in conversion to the tradions of our ETERNAL UNCHANGING GOD . …
 
FWIW, I believe care should be taken with this idea of a Primary source. The Church does not teach Prima Scriptura. As we know, the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus directly and personally instructed by Him through His teaching of the Apostles. We also know the early Church was growing and flourishing before the New Testament was even written. This was accomplished through the handing on of the faith via Tradition. At the same time, Scripture is not simply the memories of the evangelists committed to writing, but is in fact a distinct channel of revelation, being the Word of God written under the direction of the Holy Spirit. Therefore the Church speaks of two modes of transmission (Tradition and Scripture) of the one sacred deposit of faith which are to be given equal devotion and reverence, for “Each of them makes present and fruitful in the Church the mystery of Christ…”
Of course, the Bible came from the Church, the Church didn’t come from the Bible. The Document Dei Verbum explains how God’s Revelation has been handed on through both Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture, authentically interpreted by the living teaching office of the Church.

My intention in the previous post was to point out how “Scriptural” Catholic teaching is as seen in Church Council documents, in the writings of Popes, and in the Catechism. I didn’t intend to claim Prima Scriptura, though I still believe we are The Full-Gospel Church.
 
Please show me where in a catechism or a council your church has stated that scripture is the “primary” source for doctrine.
I know your church says that its doctrines aren’t supposed to contradict scripture, but that (even if it’s true) is not the same as having scripture as the primary source.
“Yet this Magisterium is not superior to the Word of God, but is its servant. It teaches only what has been handed on to it. At the divine command and with the help of the Holy Spirit, it listens to this devotedly, guards it with dedication and expounds it faithfully. All that it proposes for belief as being divinely revealed is drawn from this single deposit of faith” (Dei Verbum 10:2, also quoted in CCC 86).

The preservation, compilation, and proclamation of Sacred Scripture is a Sacred Tradition, which, though a different mode of transmission, compliments and is in harmony with Sacred Scripture.

Before the canon of the Bible, the Christian Rule of Faith (TRADITION) included belief in the Apostolic succession through the Episcopate, the authority of Tradition itself, the authority of Scripture, the three fold ministry (bishop-priest-deacon), belief in baptismal regeneration, prayers for the dead, veneration of the Saints, the Seven sacraments, the evangelical counsels, and others. The historical evidence is there for anyone who wishes to see it.

If every bible in the world was destroyed, the Word of God would be preserved in Sacred Tradition. God’s Word is much bigger than ink and paper.
 
Does anyone know of any documents on the internet that give a Catholic response to the argument that Jesus endorsed the Hebrew canon with Luke 11:51 “From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.”
 
Does anyone know of any documents on the internet that give a Catholic response to the argument that Jesus endorsed the Hebrew canon with Luke 11:51 “From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias, which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation.”
37
10 After he had spoken, a Pharisee invited him to dine at his home. He entered and reclined at table to eat.
38
The Pharisee was amazed to see that he did not observe the prescribed washing before the meal.
39
The Lord said to him, “Oh you Pharisees! Although you cleanse the outside of the cup and the dish, inside you are filled with plunder and evil.
40
You fools! Did not the maker of the outside also make the inside?
41 But as to what is within, give alms, and behold, everything will be clean for you.
42
Woe to you Pharisees! You pay tithes of mint and of rue and of every garden herb, but you pay no attention to judgment and to love for God. These you should have done, without overlooking the others.
43
Woe to you Pharisees! You love the seat of honor in synagogues and greetings in marketplaces.
44
Woe to you! You are like unseen graves 11 over which people unknowingly walk.”
45
Then one of the scholars of the law 12 said to him in reply, “Teacher, by saying this you are insulting us too.”
46
And he said, “Woe also to you scholars of the law! You impose on people burdens hard to carry, but you yourselves do not lift one finger to touch them.
47
Woe to you! You build the memorials of the prophets whom your ancestors killed.
48
Consequently, you bear witness and give consent to the deeds of your ancestors, for they killed them and you do the building.
49
Therefore, the wisdom of God said, ‘I will send to them prophets and apostles; 13 some of them they will kill and persecute’
50
in order that this generation might be charged with the blood of all the prophets shed since the foundation of the world,
51
from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah 14 who died between the altar and the temple building. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be charged with their blood!
52
Woe to you, scholars of the law! You have taken away the key of knowledge. You yourselves did not enter and you stopped those trying to enter.”
53
When he left, the scribes and Pharisees began to act with hostility toward him and to interrogate him about many things,
54
for they were plotting to catch him at something he might say.
Luke 11:37-54
So you’re saying there are some people who read John 6 (and don’t see the Eucharist) and who read Matthew 16 (and don’t see Peter’s primacy) yet who read Luke 11 and see Christ “endorsing” the Jewish OT (Protestant) canon?

That is truly amazing!

BTW, your question is answered in Gary Michuta’s book on page 23-27.
handsonapologetics.com/Table%20Of%20Contents_Page.htm
 
So you’re saying there are some people who read John 6 (and don’t see the Eucharist) and who read Matthew 16 (and don’t see Peter’s primacy) yet who read Luke 11 and see Christ “endorsing” the Jewish OT (Protestant) canon?

That is truly amazing!
LOL, good one! 👍
 
I’m sort of new to this whole forum thing (I did start one thread, if that’s even the right word, asking for help explaining the Perpetual Virginty of Mary to someone I know) but I just wanted to throw in my two cents, if you will, on this discussion, take it for what you will.
For me the Protestant belief of Sola Scriptura (Bible only) contradicts itself because
  1. the belief in Sola Scriptura itself is nowhere found in Sacred Scripture (whether you go with the Protestant Bible or the Catholic Bible). And actually it seems to be refuted by such passages as 2 Thessalonians 2:15, Matthew 16:15-19, John 21:15-19, Matthew 28:18-20, Luke 10:16, 1 Timothy 3:15, John 14:26, John 16:13 etc.
  2. the list of what books should actually be considered part of the canon is not listed in either Bible, because it is impossible to say I believe in these books as inspired because these books list themselves as inspired in their inspirational status. We have to start with no books being considered inspired and then prove which are inspired and which are not inspired.
    In other words you need a divine infallable inerrant authority outside of the Bible to come up with the Bible in the first place.
To me this proves that the belief in Sola Scriptura is, well, just plain silly. It contradicts itself. So actually the belief in Sola Scriptura proves only that their should be no Bible in first place. I don’t know, maybe I’m missing something, and if I am please let me know, but this always seemed kind of simple to me. So we must have a divine infallable authority outside of the Bible. This has to be either the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church, since it should be based on the Sacrament of Holy Orders. And from what I’ve learned (I’ve only recently joined RCIA, but I do talk like I’m a Catholic and consider myself an unofficial Catholic now, but only until this Easter then it’ll be official :), so please pray for my continued RCIA process BTW) the Orthodox Church is just in a schism regarding It’s relationship to the Catholic Church. So this rules out the Protestants completely from having this divine authority outside the Bible. And to me, since the Catholic Church is actually built on Peter (the Vatican being built on Saint Peter’s tomb and the belief of the Primacy of the Pope as universal shepard of the entire Christian flock) then this makes the Catholic Church the holders of this divine authority that resides outside of the Bible. It contains the fullness of the Christian faith that is to be adhered to by the universal Christian flock. And this includes which books should be a part of the canon of Sacred Scripture and which shouldn’t.
So the question I pose to Protestants is what authority outside of the Bible do you turn to for the authority to tell you infallably that the Protestant Bible is correct, no books should be added to it and none taken away from it. In other words you have to leave the Catholic Church completey out of it because you don’t believe in It’s divine infallable authority, as a Protestant, so the Protestants have to start from scratch. Who came up with the Protestant Bible from scratch and are those people considered infallable in this teaching of canonical status of the books of the Protestant Bible. And if they are then it seems Protestants have their own Sacred Tradition and/or Magesterium of the Protestant denominational umbrella (and Luther is then the first Protestant Pope I guess, 🙂 by Protestant beliefs, although they don’t believe in a Pope. So, oh well, so much for that idea)
Those of you who don’t believe in this (Protestants etc) will probably rip my arguments to pieces as again I am new to this whole Catholic faith thing, but I am interested in hearing everyone’s responses. Just be gentle please 🙂
 
This was in one of my word documents but I don’t know who to give credit to. It’s not mine.

This myth rests on two fallacies. The first is the “Quotation Equals Canonicity” myth. It assumes that if a book is quoted or alluded to by the Apostles or Christ, it is ipso facto shown to be part of the Old Testament. Conversely, if a given book is not quoted, it must not be canonical.
This argument fails for two reasons. First, numerous non-canonical books are quoted in the New Testament. These include the Book of Enoch and the Assumption of Moses (quoted by St. Jude), the Ascension of Isaiah (alluded to in Hebrews 11:37), and the writings of the pagan poets Epimenides, Aratus, and Menander (quoted by St. Paul in Acts, 1 Corinthians, and Titus). If quotation equals canonicity, then why aren’t these writings in the canon of the Old Testament?
Second, if quotation equals canonicity, then there are numerous books of the protocanonical Old Testament which would have to be excluded. This would include the Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations and Nahum. Not one of these Old Testament books is ever quoted or alluded to by Christ or the Apostles in the New Testament.
The other fallacy behind Myth #2 is that, far from being ignored in the New Testament (like Ecclesiastes, Esther, and 1 Chronicles) the deuterocanonical books are indeed quoted and alluded to in the New Testament. For instance, Wisdom 2:12-20, reads in part, “For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him.”
This passage was clearly in the minds of the Synoptic Gospel writers in their accounts of the Crucifixion: “He saved others; he cannot save himself. So he is the king of Israel! Let him come down from the cross now, and we will believe in him. He trusted in God; let Him deliver him now if he wants him. For he said, ÔI am the Son of God’” (cf. Matthew 27:42-43).
Similarly, St. Paul alludes clearly to Wisdom chapters 12 and 13 in Romans 1:19-25. Hebrews 11:35 refers unmistakably to 2 Maccabees 7. And more than once, Christ Himself drew on the text of Sirach 27:6, which reads: “The fruit of a tree shows the care it has had; so too does a man’s speech disclose the bent of his mind.” Notice too that the Lord and His Apostles observed the Jewish feast of Hanukkah (cf. John 10:22-36). But the divine establishment of this key feast day is recorded only in the deuterocanonical books of 1 and 2 Maccabees. It is nowhere discussed in any other book of the Old Testament. In light of this, consider the importance of Christ’s words on the occasion of this feast: “Is it not written in your Law, ÔI have said you are gods’? If he called them Ôgods,’ to whom the word of God came — and the Scripture cannot be broken — what about the One Whom the Father set apart as His very own and sent into the world?” Jesus, standing near the Temple during the feast of Hanukkah, speaks of His being “set apart,” just as Judas Maccabeus “set apart” (ie. consecrated) the Temple in 1 Maccabees 4:36-59 and 2 Maccabees 10:1-8. In other words, our Lord made a connection that was unmistakable to His Jewish hearers by treating the Feast of Hanukkah and the account of it in the books of the Maccabees as an image or type of His own consecration by the Father. That is, He treats the Feast of Hanukkah from the so-called “apocryphal” books of 1 and 2 Maccabees exactly as He treats accounts of the manna (John 6:32-33; Exodus 16:4), the Bronze Serpent (John 3:14; Numbers 21:4-9), and Jacob’s Ladder (John 1:51; Genesis 28:12) — as inspired, prophetic, scriptural images of Himself. We see this pattern throughout the New Testament. There is no distinction made by Christ or the Apostles between the deuterocanonical books and the rest of the Old Testament.
 
This was in one of my word documents but I don’t know who to give credit to. It’s not mine.

This myth rests on two fallacies. The first is the “Quotation Equals Canonicity” myth. It assumes that if a book is quoted or alluded to by the Apostles or Christ, it is ipso facto shown to be part of the Old Testament. Conversely, if a given book is not quoted, it must not be canonical.
This argument fails for two reasons. First, numerous non-canonical books are quoted in the New Testament. These include the Book of Enoch and the Assumption of Moses (quoted by St. Jude), the Ascension of Isaiah (alluded to in Hebrews 11:37), and the writings of the pagan poets Epimenides, Aratus, and Menander (quoted by St. Paul in Acts, 1 Corinthians, and Titus). If quotation equals canonicity, then why aren’t these writings in the canon of the Old Testament?
It depends upon how a book is quoted. For example, certain phrases are used by Jesus and the apostles when they are quoting from scripture. Phrases such as “…thus sayeth the Lord” or “it is written” are indicators that what is being quoted is in fact scripture. None of the books you refer to as the deutero’s are quoted this way.

The books you mention such as the Book of Enoch and the Assumption of Moses aren’t quote that way either. So we know for a fact that just because a book is quoted or alluded to doesn’t mean that it is scripture. Therein lies a part of the problem with your deutero’s. They are never quoted as scripture.
Second, if quotation equals canonicity, then there are numerous books of the protocanonical Old Testament which would have to be excluded. This would include the Song of Songs, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Obadiah, Zephaniah, Judges, 1 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, Lamentations and Nahum. Not one of these Old Testament books is ever quoted or alluded to by Christ or the Apostles in the New Testament.
Again, it depends upon how the book is quoted and your deutero’s never receive any indication in the NT that the apostles or Jesus thought they were inspired. Also, I’m not sure there was every any doubt about the canonicity of the books you mention.
**
The other fallacy behind Myth #2 is that, far from being ignored in the New Testament (like Ecclesiastes, Esther, and 1 Chronicles) the deuterocanonical books are indeed quoted and alluded to in the New Testament. **For instance, Wisdom 2:12-20, reads in part, “For if the just one be the son of God, he will defend him and deliver him from the hand of his foes. With revilement and torture let us put him to the test that we may have proof of his gentleness and try his patience. Let us condemn him to a shameful death; for according to his own words, God will take care of him.”
This passage was clearly in the minds of the Synoptic Gospel writers in their accounts of the Crucifixion: “He saved others; he cannot save himself. So he is the king of Israel! Let him come down from the cross now, and we will believe in him. He trusted in God; let Him deliver him now if he wants him. For he said, ÔI am the Son of God’” (cf. Matthew 27:42-43).
Similarly, St. Paul alludes clearly to Wisdom chapters 12 and 13 in Romans 1:19-25. Hebrews 11:35 refers unmistakably to 2 Maccabees 7. And more than once, Christ Himself drew on the text of Sirach 27:6, which reads: “The fruit of a tree shows the care it has had; so too does a man’s speech disclose the bent of his mind.” Notice too that the Lord and His Apostles observed the Jewish feast of Hanukkah (cf. John 10:22-36). But the divine establishment of this key feast day is recorded only in the deuterocanonical books of 1 and 2 Maccabees. It is nowhere discussed in any other book of the Old Testament. In light of this, consider the importance of Christ’s words on the occasion of this feast: “Is it not written in your Law, ÔI have said you are gods’? If he called them Ôgods,’ to whom the word of God came — and the Scripture cannot be broken — what about the One Whom the Father set apart as His very own and sent into the world?” Jesus, standing near the Temple during the feast of Hanukkah, speaks of His being “set apart,” just as Judas Maccabeus “set apart” (ie. consecrated) the Temple in 1 Maccabees 4:36-59 and 2 Maccabees 10:1-8. In other words, our Lord made a connection that was unmistakable to His Jewish hearers by treating the Feast of Hanukkah and the account of it in the books of the Maccabees as an image or type of His own consecration by the Father. That is, He treats the Feast of Hanukkah from the so-called “apocryphal” books of 1 and 2 Maccabees exactly as He treats accounts of the manna (John 6:32-33; Exodus 16:4), the Bronze Serpent (John 3:14; Numbers 21:4-9), and Jacob’s Ladder (John 1:51; Genesis 28:12) — as inspired, prophetic, scriptural images of Himself. We see this pattern throughout the New Testament. There is no distinction made by Christ or the Apostles between the deuterocanonical books and the rest of the Old Testament.
You can’t have it both ways. Earlier you said, and I quote “This myth rests on two fallacies. The first is the “Quotation Equals Canonicity” myth. It assumes that if a book is quoted or alluded to by the Apostles or Christ, it is ipso facto shown to be part of the Old Testament.” and you also pointed out that non-canonical books are in fact quoted in the NT. Now you want to argue that because a book is alluded to that they are in fact canonical. Your deutero’s are never given any indication that they were considered scripture in the NT. What would that indication be? Simply quoting them as other scripture is quoted with “…thus sayeth the Lord” or “it is written…” would suffice. Again, it depends upon how the book is quoted.

As I pointed out earlier there is in fact a distiniction given by Jesus and the apostles between books quoted that are canonical and books quoted as non-canonical.
 
It depends upon how a book is quoted. For example, certain phrases are used by Jesus and the apostles when they are quoting from scripture. Phrases such as “…thus sayeth the Lord” or “it is written” are indicators that what is being quoted is in fact scripture. None of the books you refer to as the deutero’s are quoted this way.

The books you mention such as the Book of Enoch and the Assumption of Moses aren’t quote that way either. So we know for a fact that just because a book is quoted or alluded to doesn’t mean that it is scripture. Therein lies a part of the problem with your deutero’s. They are never quoted as scripture.

Again, it depends upon how the book is quoted and your deutero’s never receive any indication in the NT that the apostles or Jesus thought they were inspired. Also, I’m not sure there was every any doubt about the canonicity of the books you mention.

You can’t have it both ways. Earlier you said, and I quote “This myth rests on two fallacies. The first is the “Quotation Equals Canonicity” myth. It assumes that if a book is quoted or alluded to by the Apostles or Christ, it is ipso facto shown to be part of the Old Testament.” and you also pointed out that non-canonical books are in fact quoted in the NT. Now you want to argue that because a book is alluded to that they are in fact canonical. Your deutero’s are never given any indication that they were considered scripture in the NT. What would that indication be? Simply quoting them as other scripture is quoted with “…thus sayeth the Lord” or “it is written…” would suffice. Again, it depends upon how the book is quoted.

As I pointed out earlier there is in fact a distiniction given by Jesus and the apostles between books quoted that are canonical and books quoted as non-canonical.
Still, how do you justify the “thus sayeth the Lord” or “it is written” NT litmus test for OT canonicity when many of the books you accept as canonical were never mentioned in the NT?

You accept that “there was never any doubt about the canonicity of these other books” because that is what your tradition has taught you.

No one could discern the OT canon from reading the NT, yet Catholics hear this argument all the time. That is what Ryan is pointing out.

(BTW, the canonicity of the book of Esther was doubted, at least by Luther.)
 
Still, how do you justify the “thus sayeth the Lord” or “it is written” NT litmus test for OT canonicity when many of the books you accept as canonical were never mentioned in the NT?
Do you disagree that the phrases “it is written” or “thus sayeth the Lord” indiate that the book referenced is canonical?

Also, I never said or implied that a book had to be quoted in the NT before one can consider it canonical.
You accept that “there was never any doubt about the canonicity of these other books” because that is what your tradition has taught you.
No, I said that I don’t think there was any doubt. In other words, I’m not sure about that. Do you know of a controversy surrounding the status of the books mentioned?
No one could discern the OT canon from reading the NT, yet Catholics hear this argument all the time. That is what Ryan is pointing out.

(BTW, the canonicity of the book of Esther was doubted, at least by Luther.)
No, not entirely the couldn’t and I don’t think I ever said that one could.

Did Luther finally deem it (Esther) canonical?
 
Do you disagree that the phrases “it is written” or “thus sayeth the Lord” indiate that the book referenced is canonical?

Also, I never said or implied that a book had to be quoted in the NT before one can consider it canonical.

No, I said that I don’t think there was any doubt. In other words, I’m not sure about that. Do you know of a controversy surrounding the status of the books mentioned?

No, not entirely the couldn’t and I don’t think I ever said that one could.

Did Luther finally deem it (Esther) canonical?
In the end, the canon of Scripture is discerned by tradition. You seem to agree since you said:
Also, I never said or implied that a book had to be quoted in the NT before one can consider it canonical.
Catholics are comfortable resting on tradition to discern the canon of Scripture; Protestants are not. That’s why they frequently appeal to arguments about OT quotes in the NT in support of their canon.

I won’t say these “NT quote” type arguments have no merit. I’m sure these are the questions the Church Fathers addressed in the Councils of Hippo and Carthage. But ultimately these arguments fall short in explaining the canon in its entirety. Ryan pointed out the shortcomings of these arguments in his post.

Also, the “thus sayeth the Lord” and “it is written” criteria seem to be applied arbitrarily since not all the books you accept are referred to in the NT. I’m not aware of anywhere in the NT where Christ or the Apostles reject the deuteros. If they did reject them, you would have a point.

In the end, you accept your canon of Scripture because of your tradition; I accept my canon because of my tradition. Neither of us could discern the canon from the Bible alone.
 
I won’t say these “NT quote” type arguments have no merit. I’m sure these are the questions the Church Fathers addressed in the Councils of Hippo and Carthage. But ultimately these arguments fall short in explaining the canon in its entirety.
I agree and don’t think I implied otherwise.
Ryan pointed out the shortcomings of these arguments in his post.
No, Ryan pointed no such thing. His points were:
1.) Books quoted in the NT aren’t always canonical and I might add that we agree on the fact that non-canonical books are quoted or allluded to in the NT and are not canonical.

Note that Ryan used an argument that can be used against the canonocity of the deutero’s. If they are ever quoted in the NT it doesn’t establish their canonocity.

2.) A book (OT) may not be quoted in the NT and it could still be canonical. I am sure we both agree with this point.

3.) Your deuterocanonical books are at least alluded to in the NT

I attempted to point out that:
1.) Books quoted with the “it is written” introduction are to the best of my knowledge considered canonical by both sides of this debate. I also pointed out that your deutero’s aren’t ever quoted that way.

Simple quotation does not equal canonocity and I never have indicated that it did. It is the way in which a book is quoted that should give us some clue as to whether or not it is scripture.

2.) I don’t think there was any debate around the canonocity of books such as Esther and the Song of Songs. Note that this isn’t a statement of a fact and I am open to correction on this if I am wrong.
Also, the “thus sayeth the Lord” and “it is written” criteria seem to be applied arbitrarily since not all the books you accept are referred to in the NT. I’m not aware of anywhere in the NT where Christ or the Apostles reject the deuteros. If they did reject them, you would have a point.
No, the criteria isn’t “arbitrary”. I think you misunderstand my point.

My point isn’t that a book has to be quoted a certain way to be canonical or even quoted at all. My point is that if a book is quoted with an indicator such as “thus sayeth the Lord” it seems obvious that that book is canonical. Again, I did not mean to imply that a book has to be quoted at all to be considered canonical.

I’m curious.

Is there anything I’ve said above that isn’t accurate?
 
Originally posted by Calvinator.
*My point isn’t that a book has to be quoted a certain way to be canonical or even quoted at all. My point is that if a book is quoted with an indicator such as “thus sayeth the Lord” it seems obvious that that book is canonical. Again, I did not mean to imply that a book has to be quoted at all to be considered canonical.
I’m curious.
Is there anything I’ve said above that isn’t accurate?*
Code:
It seems to me that your question (of curiosity) really lies with what should be the criteria for deciding if a book is inspired or is not inspired (ie. Belongs in the Bible or doesn't). And this is a very important question to ask. It leads into the question of who is to say what the criteria is. Even if a book of the NT has a quotation in it that says "thus saith the Lord" refering to an OT book, we still would have to be sure of the particular NT books status as inspirational that had the quote in it. Even the Koran (and numerous other writings outside the Bible, whether Catholic, or Protestant) call themselves inspirational. We all agree that this alone cannot suffice to decide on a book's canonical status. So what are the "rules" for canonicity (I think that's the right spelling)? And who has the authority to come up with them? 
We must remember that Christ, while he was on earth, did not just sit down, write the NT in it's entirety, hand the Bible (OT and NT) over to the Apostles, then told them to go out, make copies, and hand the Bible out to all the world. He instituted the Church to infallably teach the Word of God to the entire world, through preaching. The Bible was written during the time of the Apostles, but no official canon was in place to say what was a part of the Bible and what wasn't. 
It wasn't until 350-400 years after Christ that there was a canon in place (unless you want to make the argument that it wasn't until the Council of Trent in the 1500's that the Catholic Bible came to be, and of course the Protestant Bible didn't come into it's own official canonical status until the 1500's). This means that for 350-400 years (or 1500+ years if going with the Council of Trent/Protestant Reformation argument) the Church and Holy Tradition were the only known sources of Divine Teaching. Sacred Scripture was of course used, but there were many false letters circulating around, the authors claiming to be Paul, when in fact they were not. So the laity had to turn to the Church to know what writings were true and which weren't, and also what books were inspired and which werent. 
And if the Protestant Bible was the "right" Bible then why did God wait 1500+ years to give it to Christians, especially if the notion of Sola Scriptura is correct? Were the original Christians wrong for listening to the authority of the Church? And were their beliefs wrong as well, since they line up with the Catholic teaching of today? We must remember that God instituted the Church and the Church (with God's guidance) wrote the NT and came up with the entire Bible, the Bible did not come up with the Church. Without a divinely appointed infallable authority outside of the Bible to come up with the Bible in the first place we have no Bible to turn to. So who is this divinely appointed infallable authority, it is the Catholic Church. 
Every Protestant I've spoken to, from Pastors and Ministers to lay people, all admit to their own fallability and their lack of authority. They all say the Bible and the Bible alone is the sole rule of faith. They dont say the Bible and the Protestant Reformers, or the Bible and the Jews who came up with their own OT canon in circa 100AD (which some Protestants like to use to support the Protestant OT canon since it is, I believe, the same as this Jewish canon), just the Bible. But the Bible didn't come up with itself, and could never come up with itself. It didn't drop from the heavens (in it's official status as a complete written book) on the lap of either the Catholic Church or the Protestant Church. It came from God's inspiration, through the Holy Spirit, through men in the Church, through the decisions made by the infallability of the Catholic Church (which was guided by God, particularly the Holy Spirit, in making this canonical decision). Protestants either have to say they believe in their own infallability (Sacred Tradition and/or Protestant Magesterium) or say that everyone has just as much a right to come up with their own Bible as anyone else does (including the Protestant Reformers). Neither of these things they will say though, because they don't believe in either of these ideas. So what are we left with? In my opinion it's either the Catholic Church and It's Bible or no Bible at all. I know this sounds harsh, but I really don't see any other answer. The Church is the infallable authority set up by our Lord Jesus Christ to spread and teach the Good News. So the Church also needed to infallably know what books, or writings, were in fact inspired by God and which weren't. Anyone can come up with their own checklist for which books belong in the Bible and which don't but who is to say? Catholics hold that the Church was set up to decide. The Protestants say that the Bible itself is the sole rule of faith. This notion contradicts itself, in my opinion, and that's one reason why I turn to the Catholic Church for infallable teaching. There is much more that can be said for "proving" that the Catholic Church is "the" authority, but I just wanted to try and concentrate on the discussion at hand.
I am interested in hearing everyone's responses to these issues and comments and as always, welcome a friendly and lively debate from all. Thank you, in advance, for allowing me to voice my beliefs and for reading this post.
May God bless you and Mary keep you.
 
Hi Calvinator,

To answer your post, these are the things we agree upon:

–“NT quote” arguments per se cannot explain the canon of Scripture. Agreed.

–some, but not all books quoted in the NT are canonical. Agreed.

–there are references to the deuteros in the NT. Agreed.

–when Jesus says “it is written” and then cites a particular book of Scripture, that indicates authority (or inspiration) of that book. Agreed.

These are the things you claim that I don’t agree with:

–if an OT book is quoted in the NT without an “indicator” (such as “it is written” or “thus sayeth the Lord,”) it should not be considered canonical. I disagree. Many times the NT writers refer to OT books without the “indicator.”

–it is possible for an OT book not to be cited in the NT and still be considered canonical. Yet if an OT book is mentioned in the NT, it must have the “indicator.” I agree with the first sentence, but disagree with the second. The requirement of an “indicator” seems like an arbitrary rule you are imposing. Just because Jesus indicates the authority of Scripture by using “it is written” at times, we cannot infer that He indicates a lack of inspiration when He excludes “it is written” from an OT quote. The context of the citation is important; sometimes the context of the citation demands the recognition of authority; sometimes it does not.

–some of the deuteros were cited in the NT, but they have no “indicator” with them, so we shouldn’t accept them as canonical. I disagree, and will explain in the next few paragraphs.

If one looks objectively at your claim, he will see that there are many times when Jesus and the NT writers refer to the OT books without the indicators “thus sayeth the Lord” or “it is written.” If you search the KJV for the phrases: “it is written” and “thus sayeth the Lord,” you will find 160 matches for “it is written.” (There are no matches for “thus sayeth the Lord.”) In the NT, there are a total of 71 times where the writers use “it is written” in reference to an OT book: Jesus uses it 28 times (in reference to 13 OT books) while the remaining 43 citations refer to these 13 plus 5 additional OT books.

There are many times Jesus refers to the OT books without the indicator “it is written.” Examples are found widely throughout the Gospel and include Matthew 24:15 (reference to Daniel) and Matthew 24:37 (reference to Genesis.)

So from the information above, there are 18 non-deutero OT books either Jesus or the NT writers cite with the indicator “it is written.” Using your argument, that leaves 21 non-deutero OT books in question. Ryan lists 11 non-deutero OT books that were never cited in the NT. That means 10 OT books (accepted by Protestants) are cited in the NT without the “indicator.” This puts these 10 books in the same boat as the deuteros. Where is your argument now?

Now if you say “but there never was any debate about these 10 books and there was debate about the deuteros,” you are simply appealing to tradition. A different tradition than the one I accept, but it is traditon nevertheless.

My point is why bother using the “OT quote + it is written” argument at all when in the end you refuse to hold all the OT books (deuteros included) to the same standard, your argument falls short, and you are left to appeal to the authority of tradition anyway?
 
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