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AlanFromWichita
Guest
Gottle of Geer:
Yes.
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reen12
Guest
quote: Gottle of Geer
Not to us, Lord, not to us -but to You be the glory.
Psalm 115:1
usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm115.htm
Best,
reen12
Makes me think of,
Not to us, Lord, not to us -but to You be the glory.
Psalm 115:1
usccb.org/nab/bible/psalms/psalm115.htm
Best,
reen12
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reen12
Guest
quote: Thal59
Iâve got to tell you - and I am not being sarcastic - when
phrased this way: âauthorized churchâ - itâs sounds like an
auto dealership - rather than ecclesia - as in:
Only have your car seen to by an âauthorizedâ dealer.
I find same most dis-spiriting.
Before I would dare assess a fellow Christian to be ââŚin schism with the LordâŚâ I would pause - to consider:
----> Let us pursue what leads toâŚbuilding up one another.
Romans 14: 19
usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans14.htm
And, further:
So, there remain faith, hope and charity - but the
greatest of these is charity.
1Cor 13:13
usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians13.htm
Just my thought.
reen12
in schism with the Lord. Protestants are - as they have broken from his authorized church.
Iâve got to tell you - and I am not being sarcastic - when
phrased this way: âauthorized churchâ - itâs sounds like an
auto dealership - rather than ecclesia - as in:
Only have your car seen to by an âauthorizedâ dealer.
I find same most dis-spiriting.
Before I would dare assess a fellow Christian to be ââŚin schism with the LordâŚâ I would pause - to consider:
----> Let us pursue what leads toâŚbuilding up one another.
Romans 14: 19
usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/romans14.htm
And, further:
So, there remain faith, hope and charity - but the
greatest of these is charity.
1Cor 13:13
usccb.org/nab/bible/1corinthians/1corinthians13.htm
Just my thought.
reen12
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AlanFromWichita
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Dear reen12,
It just occurred to me that Catholics who think this way probably donât consider them âfellow Christians,â but some sort of counterfeit Christians, or Christian wannabees. That is how you avoid judging a fellow Christian; you define them as non-Christian, maybe not in so many words but certainly in theirr hearts.
Does anybody really think Christ is going to forget about a Christian who did unto others as He found to be good? He gave us ample evidence to the contrary, yet we think their soul is at stake if we donât convert them.
Even the Church acknowledges valid Baptisms from some Protestant faiths. One would think that âJoe Catholicâ like me, with less reason to find âtechnical errorsâ than the Church on things like this, would minimally hold others in the esteem the Church does. If the Lord were not active outside the Church then it would be impossible for us to accept their baptisms as valid.
Either that or one must conclude that the Catholic Church does not think God plays a role in baptisms.
Yes, thatâs where that logic leads, and I took it all the way, thank you. Thank youveddymuchâŚ
Alan
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clmowry
Guest
So it doesnât matter what is believed by someone as long as theyâve been baptised and claim the name Christian?
Itâs all just the same to God?
Itâs all just the same to God?
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Church_Militant
Guest
Iâd disagreeâŚI think the fact that Jesus said.â6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.â (John 14:6) would point out to us all that there is absolute truth and that we have a moral obligation both to seek it and to adhere to it when we find it.
I am Catholic because I went seeking truth regardless of where it led and it led me to the Catholic faith. I canât be anything else because it is not truth in its fullness. It is not easy, but I have the satisfaction & peace of knowing that I am where the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of Truth) has led me. I am still seeking truth, but I have not found it nearly as fully outside the Catholic ChurchâŚmore like partial truths.
The glaring truth is the Eucharist, but other things are the certainty that comes of seeing our beliefs align with those of the early church.
I hope that makes senseâŚ
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reen12
Guest
quote:ChurchMilitant
stated, in the material quoted above.
Yet there is one element in it that I think that I would
âchallenge.â :tiphat: According to Christianity as a whole,
Jesus IS ââŚthe way the truthâŚâ
So, seeking out âtruthâ is truth - with a capital âT.â
Jesus is the Truth, for Christians.
All other âtruthsâ are ancillary to this greatest truth.
And if it were to be said: âYes, but finding Jesus means
following what He said which would lead one to His
one, true Churchâ etc., even *then *I wouldnât have a
problem with this position.
Yet, if charity is done downâŚin this âproclaimingâ of
the truthâŚthat Iâd have a* major* problem with.
Do you see what Iâm saying, here, Church Militant?
Thanks,
reen12
Oddly enough, I donât have a problem with what youâve
stated, in the material quoted above.
Yet there is one element in it that I think that I would
âchallenge.â :tiphat: According to Christianity as a whole,
Jesus IS ââŚthe way the truthâŚâ
So, seeking out âtruthâ is truth - with a capital âT.â
Jesus is the Truth, for Christians.
All other âtruthsâ are ancillary to this greatest truth.
And if it were to be said: âYes, but finding Jesus means
following what He said which would lead one to His
one, true Churchâ etc., even *then *I wouldnât have a
problem with this position.
Yet, if charity is done downâŚin this âproclaimingâ of
the truthâŚthat Iâd have a* major* problem with.
Do you see what Iâm saying, here, Church Militant?
Thanks,
reen12
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reen12
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quote: clmowry
Please define ââŚdoesnât matterâŚâ
Thanks,
reen12
Iâm perfectly serious, in asking the following:
Please define ââŚdoesnât matterâŚâ
Thanks,
reen12
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Church_Militant
Guest
the truthâŚthat Iâd have a* major* problem with.
Do you see what Iâm saying, here, Church Militant?Yes, I think so, however, I see that as a âtechnical problemâ that depends a great deal on the individual person sharing their faith and not something that applies per se to the entire body of believers.
Some folks are good at faith-sharing and are charitable about it and some are not. Does that invalidate the truth? Of course not! It merely makes the person unpleasant to listen to and often closes the channels to any real discussion.
The pursuit of the truth requires courage and honesty, because it means that we must unflinchingly go where it leads, like it or not.
Example: The Eucharist.
If the Eucharist really is the Real Presence as Catholics have believed for 2,000 years, (One need only read the letter of Ignatius of Antioch to the church at Smyrna), then if we are honest then we have no choice but to go where that is believed, taught, and practiced. Anything less just will not satisfy the honest personâs soul.
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AndyF
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Paris Blues said:
Absolutely.
The devil is determined to deceive some in thinking that the true perfect Church that Christ established is not one.
Andy
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Paris_Blues
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And remember, Iâm NOT saying Protestants have got anything to do with the Reformation for those who think Iâm saying that
. If they only knew what being a Catholic is, then and only then they would know what Iâm talking about here.
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Thal59
Guest
Gottle of Geer:
Thal59:
And purely as a matter of experience, Iâve often found (when a Protestant) that they were âempoweredâ by God". God is alive and well elsewhere than in the CC - there is no reason for Catholics to be so anxious to prove the contrary (if that were possible; which it is not.)
Why should admitting that God is present among Protestants be damaging to Catholics or Catholicism ? To do so, does not upset a single Catholic doctrine - or any other Catholic thing. If anything, it is a case of joy that God is great enough not to be hindered by our petty rivalries; it is a sign of His power and mercy and grace. What more could we want ? ##
Let me focus on this partâŚ
The people who have responded to my posts keep making the mistake of thinking that I am declaring that God does not work through any Protestant individual. I am speaking of the authority of the church compared to the lack of authority in the Protestant churches.
Look at it this way. As a Catholic, do you believe the local Baptist minister can hear your confession and grant you absolution? Does a Presbyterian minister have the authority to offer the Eucharist? If David Koresh and the Branch Davidians were still around, would you ask him to marry you? Would you consider it a valid marriage?
If an ardent anti-Catholic church, which attacks and profanes its doctrines Baptizes a child, is the Baptism valid? How can a minister, who is part of a church that is not a part of the body baptise someone into it? When Pastor Alex Jones and dozens of his flock converted to the RCC, they also were baptised again, as they considered their first baptism invalid. (Or, at least suspected it might be.)
Yes, the RCC allows for valid Baptism outside of the church. I do not agree. But I accept this stand by the church because it has authority to say so.
What is disturbing to me is what appears to be a weakness of the church by accomodating Protestant sects in ways that undermines, or at least diminishes the RCCâs authority; if not at least the value of that authority. But this is a subject for a different thread.
Thal59
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OriginalJS
Guest
I have a question. Are people who are informally referred to as âCafeteria Catholicsâ and by that I mean those who pick and choose what they will believe and follow and reject teachings of the Catholic Church in their lives really Protestants at heart even if they show up at Mass from time to time and go through the motions?
For example: is a man who requires his wife to use artificial birth control really Catholic? How about the couple who agrees to uses artificial birth control?
How about divorced Catholics whose marriages have not been annulled receiving communion?
How about Catholics who receive communion who are in a state of mortal sin? (I have been at Mass many times when 400 or 500 people all receive communion. I canât believe they are all in a state of grace.)
How about CEO Catholics who attend Mass on Christmas and Easter Only?
It seems to me that all of these folks are really not Catholics but are protestants at heart.
For example: is a man who requires his wife to use artificial birth control really Catholic? How about the couple who agrees to uses artificial birth control?
How about divorced Catholics whose marriages have not been annulled receiving communion?
How about Catholics who receive communion who are in a state of mortal sin? (I have been at Mass many times when 400 or 500 people all receive communion. I canât believe they are all in a state of grace.)
How about CEO Catholics who attend Mass on Christmas and Easter Only?
It seems to me that all of these folks are really not Catholics but are protestants at heart.
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reen12
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Well said, Church Militant. Thanks.
quote: Church Militant
quote: Church Militant
reen
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AlanFromWichita
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This is a great point. It leads to a question I have, though. Who is a pure enough Catholic to judge anotherâs âCatholicity?â Where would humans draw the line v. where would God? We donât rightly claim to know.
Alan
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Thal59
Guest
I understand where you are coming from, although I feel the analogy is weak.
The Catholics in the hypothetical examples you have offered can be called weak, or perhaps ones who have lost their zeal or who are lacking in piety. I know a number of Protestants who have a greater zeal than the people you have mentioned. But one needs to keep in mind that Protestants reject many Catholic doctrines.
There is a world of difference between someone who accepts the churchâs teaching but is tepid in observing its practices, as compared to someone who rejects those teachings and practices altogether.
Thal59
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
People are Christian in Godâs POV - not their own, nor that of a Church. Only from God can grace come
No one has access to Godâs POV, or to God, except insofar as God makes this access available. And that He does supremely, and solely, in Christ. This means our knowledge of God is always imperfect, is always a provisional knowledge, and subject to correction. Our ideas are always under Godâs judgement, as are we. That is why the Church as a whole. like ourselves individually, is âat once righteous,and a sinnerâ, and why we and the Church as a whole need always to be in a state of repentance.Christianus is a political name; but only because Christiani belong to the polis, the city, of God: the spirit of Christ is death to the political, factional, divisive spirit - the worldly spirit which denies the name of Christian to those whom Christ has not denied Himself. The political approach to being âin Christâ makes it another âinterest groupâ like others, it degrades and perverts it. That is presumably why St. Paul rejects all factional spirit, even when a group claims to be âof Christâ:
- 1Cr 1:10 I appeal to you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree and that there be no dissensions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment
- 1Cr 1:11 For it has been reported to me by Chloeâs people that there is quarreling among you, my brethren
- 1Cr 1:12 What I mean is that each one of you says, âI belong to Paul,â or âI belong to Apollos,â or âI belong to Cephas,â or âI belong to Christ.â
- 1Cr 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?
- 1Cr 1:14 I am thankful that I baptized none of you except Crispus and Gaius;
- 1Cr 1:15 lest any one should say that you were baptized in my name.
- 1Cr 1:16 (I did baptize also the household of Stephanas. Beyond that, I do not know whether I baptized any one else.)
- 1Cr 1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with eloquent wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
- 1Cr 1:18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
- 1Cr 1:19 For it is written, âI will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the cleverness of the clever I will thwartâŚâ
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AlanFromWichita
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You are right that they are different. I think God has a very specific opinion about the tepid:
Rev 3:
Alan
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
One complicator, is that charity is identified, in some sense, as being the same thing as communion in the one Church. That is one of the reasons the Fathers are so negative towards schismatics - to be in schism, is to be outside charity. By this reasoning, to say that God gives schismatics charity, or brings gifts of charity (such as the sacraments) into effect outside the Church, is to deny that God is with the Church. God cannot be with schismatics, cannot bless them, cannot make their bodies means of salvation - therefore, they are Hell-fodder. There is a (pretty straight) line, at least in the reasoning, between identifying charity with ecclesiastical communion, and, declaring that Jews and schismatics and heretics and pagans are damned, as the Council of Florence did.
This idea all holds together - but it overlooks an awful lot. It is based on texts in the Bible into which it fits other texts, that might be understood in a more generous sense. Bit by bit, not without a lot of heart-searching, the CC has discarded this attitude to schismatics; thank goodness. Which is one of the reasons Vatican II has caused so much anguish; the thinking behind the older position, and Vatican II correction of parts of it, has remained the preserve of theologians and bishops; not been spelled out to the ordinary Catholic.These things need to be explained, and to be explicit - the doctrines, drawn up in the form of propositions, are all very well; but they are the product of a lot of theology and reasoning and politics and history and argument and so forth: they express the Faith, but are not the Faith. The Faith is far bigger and includes far more than a body of propositions, useful as these are. These things also need to be explained. ##
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Gottle_of_Geer
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Thal59: Let me focus on this partâŚ
Gottle of Geer1:
Auctoritas is the state of being an auctor; that is, an âincreaserâ [from augeo, augere, auctum - I increase]; not, at least primarily, of giving orders. Giving order, yes. but not orders in the more obvious sense.
Jesus âtaught with exousiaâ/authority - and the Gospels show how.
There is a book by Mgr. Cormac Burke called âAuthority in the Churchâ which is very good on the subject; anyone could understand it - which canât be said of all theological writing.
Look at it this way. As a Catholic, do you believe the local Baptist minister can hear your confession and grant you absolution?
If David Koresh and the Branch Davidians were still around, would you ask him to marry you? Would you consider it a valid marriage?
BTW - âattacks and profanesâ in what sense ? Mere disbelief or denial on the part of the minister is insufficient to invalidate the sacramental act. Iâm assuming Church is not polytheistic (say) - that is why Mormon baptisms are invalid - and that the matter and form are not invalid.
But, regardless of the minister or the theology or doctrine of this or that person or Church, God confers grace as He wills - He is not tied to the sacraments: the Church is, up to a point. Grace can be effective even when the rite is technically invalid.
**
[continueâŚ]
Gottle of Geer1:
The people who have responded to my posts keep making the mistake of thinking that I am declaring that God does not work through any Protestant individual. I am speaking of the authority of the church compared to the lack of authority in the Protestant churches.
My apologies - that shows how limited words are. A lot of people do seem to think that God is absent from Protestants.
The notion of authority needs to be teased out - both in the NT Greek, and the Latin.Auctoritas is the state of being an auctor; that is, an âincreaserâ [from augeo, augere, auctum - I increase]; not, at least primarily, of giving orders. Giving order, yes. but not orders in the more obvious sense.
Jesus âtaught with exousiaâ/authority - and the Gospels show how.
There is a book by Mgr. Cormac Burke called âAuthority in the Churchâ which is very good on the subject; anyone could understand it - which canât be said of all theological writing.
Look at it this way. As a Catholic, do you believe the local Baptist minister can hear your confession and grant you absolution?
Lay confession, yes - I believe that can be as truly a moment of grace and of communion with one another in Christ and of healing, as âsacramentalâ confession to a Catholic priest with jurisdiction, faculties, proper intention and matter. All absolution on earth is Christâs work.
Does a Presbyterian minister have the authority to offer the Eucharist?Not as the CC sees things - but Christ is wiser than the CC, and is above the limitations to which the CC, being a creature, in time and space, which is populated by sinful, frail, ignorant human beings, is subject.
So, quite possibly, yes - but, in a sense, that is not our business; it is essentially Godâs business. FWIW, I have no trouble reconciling the CCâs judgement on the matter with that of the Presbyterian Church. IMO, there is more to the question than is readily apparent ##If David Koresh and the Branch Davidians were still around, would you ask him to marry you? Would you consider it a valid marriage?
I donât know their doctrines - as the couple are ministers of the sacrament, and the priest and the rest of the Church present are witnesses, is there a reason why not ? Co-habiting couples who stayted together for a set period used to be reckoned as married.
If an ardent anti-Catholic church, which attacks and profanes its doctrines Baptizes a child, is the Baptism valid?## By Catholic thinking, it could well be - the Catholic doctrine - AFAICS - is that a sacrament is to be presumed valid unless there is a clear intention on the part of the minister contrary to doing what the Church intends to do.BTW - âattacks and profanesâ in what sense ? Mere disbelief or denial on the part of the minister is insufficient to invalidate the sacramental act. Iâm assuming Church is not polytheistic (say) - that is why Mormon baptisms are invalid - and that the matter and form are not invalid.
But, regardless of the minister or the theology or doctrine of this or that person or Church, God confers grace as He wills - He is not tied to the sacraments: the Church is, up to a point. Grace can be effective even when the rite is technically invalid.
**
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