The Difference between Luther's And The Catholic Church's Salvation

[mgrfin]

Catholics freely admit that there have been wicked popes, but for us the personal wickedness of such popes does not detract from the legitimacy of the papacy and of the apostolic succession more generally. We see that the Apostles themseves were deeply flawed. Our Lord chose sinners to work through because that it is all He had and has to work with – sinful human beings.

It looks to me as if Protestants are more focused on men than on Christ and more on other men than on themselves. They seek an impossible standard that Christ’s true church must be a sinless one, one without sinners. They see that the Catholic Church is full of sinners and conclude that they must found a church of their own that will be sinless and Christ’s true church. When that second church shows itself to be full of sinners, many break off and find a third church and so on and so on. Meanwhile, they have mired themselves in self-righteousness and authorized themselves to create new doctrines further and further from the apostolic faith.

a good take on the situation.

mgrfin

 

[Nella]

Catholics freely admit that there have been wicked popes, but for us the personal wickedness of such popes does not detract from the legitimacy of the papacy and of the apostolic succession more generally. We see that the Apostles themseves were deeply flawed. Our Lord chose sinners to work through because that it is all He had and has to work with – sinful human beings.

It looks to me as if Protestants are more focused on men than on Christ and more on other men than on themselves. They seek an impossible standard that Christ’s true church must be a sinless one, one without sinners. They see that the Catholic Church is full of sinners and conclude that they must found a church of their own that will be sinless and Christ’s true church. When that second church shows itself to be full of sinners, many break off and find a third church and so on and so on. Meanwhile, they have mired themselves in self-righteousness and authorized themselves to create new doctrines further and further from the apostolic faith.

This is not so as the Reformation in itself has proven. Prior to the Reformation, the RCC adopted church teachings that included indulgences (which are clearly not Biblical), papal infallibility which also cannot be proven by scripture and all of the corruption of the church clergy. Mainline Protestant churches have made it a point to return back to the teachings that Jesus gave to the Early Church that the RCC has abandoned.

 

[Contarini]

This is not so as the Reformation in itself has proven. Prior to the Reformation, the RCC adopted church teachings that included indulgences (which are clearly not Biblical), papal infallibility

papal infallibility was merely one theological theory before 1870.

which also cannot be proven by scripture and all of the corruption of the church clergy.

Corruption is hardly a church teaching (and hardly unique to medieval Catholicism!).

Mainline Protestant churches have made it a point to return back to the teachings that Jesus gave to the Early Church that the RCC has abandoned.

Well, returning to the early Church has led many of us to recover many beliefs and practices that Protestants mistakenly abandoned under the delusion that they were returning to Scripture (and secondarily to the early Church), and to reinstate others that had been erroneously abandoned (prayer for the dead being an obvious example).

Edwin

 

[mgrfin]

This is not so as the Reformation in itself has proven. Prior to the Reformation, the RCC adopted church teachings that included indulgences (which are clearly not Biblical), papal infallibility which also cannot be proven by scripture and all of the corruption of the church clergy. Mainline Protestant churches have made it a point to return back to the teachings that Jesus gave to the Early Church that the RCC has abandoned.

Nella,

Most Protestants don’t know what an Indulgence is let alone be able to understand it.

Papal infallibility is proven by scripture. On another post, I quoted a dozen scriptural quotes for Peter’s choice as head of the church, and that the ‘gates of hell’ shall not prevail against it.

What, if I could show it to you, you would join us?

I think not, Nella. You are not here to search out the truth, so there is little to be gained by trying to show it to you.

If you know anything about mainstream Protestantism, you can see it is falling apart at the seems. They haven’t returned to the teachings of Christ on morality, divorce, homosexuality, blessing of same sex unions; there is no faith, no liturgy. All you seem to have left is your anger, your cynicism, your bitterness at having been left behind.

mgrfin

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman
Clothed with the sun, and the moon was
Under her feet, and upon her head a crown of
Twelve stars. Ps 97

The “Early Church” is our Church, the RCC. “Credo…in unam, sanctam, catholicam, apostolicam ecclesiam.”

 

[Nella]

Nella,

Most Protestants don’t know what an Indulgence is let alone be able to understand it.

Papal infallibility is proven by scripture. On another post, I quoted a dozen scriptural quotes for Peter’s choice as head of the church, and that the ‘gates of hell’ shall not prevail against it.

What, if I could show it to you, you would join us?

I think not, Nella. You are not here to search out the truth, so there is little to be gained by trying to show it to you.

If you know anything about mainstream Protestantism, you can see it is falling apart at the seems. They haven’t returned to the teachings of Christ on morality, divorce, homosexuality, blessing of same sex unions; there is no faith, no liturgy. All you seem to have left is your anger, your cynicism, your bitterness at having been left behind.

mgrfin

A great sign appeared in heaven: a woman
Clothed with the sun, and the moon was
Under her feet, and upon her head a crown of
Twelve stars. Ps 97

The “Early Church” is our Church, the RCC. “Credo…in unam, sanctam, catholicam, apostolicam ecclesiam.”

It is so funny how you assume so much about what Protestants know. It is even funnier how you talk about morality in the wake of the biggest child sex abuse scandal in the history of mankind.

 

[mgrfin]

It is so funny how you assume so much about what Protestants know. It is even funnier how you talk about morality in the wake of the biggest child sex abuse scandal in the history of mankind.

Just drop the talk about the ‘sex abuse’ scandal, Nella.

It has nothing to do with the infallibility of the Catholic Church

You are just trying to get under our skin. Luther didn’t understand Indulgences. I hardly think you do.

mgrfin

 

[Sabda]

It is so funny how you assume so much about what Protestants know. It is even funnier how you talk about morality in the wake of the biggest child sex abuse scandal in the history of mankind.

Have you ever checked out how bad that sort of thing is in the public school system? What about in other Protestant churches? How about families in general? That is not just a Catholic Church problem. It is the way our society is today. To say it is only a Catholic Church problem is to ignore the bigger problem which is society as a whole.

Christ came for sinners not the rightous. Christ said the wheat and the tares would grow together and he would divide them at the right time.

However this is getting us off track. Since that seems to seriously trouble you (this is not the first thread I have seen you mention this) why don’t you start a thread about it.

 

[john_ennis]

Luther…

In order to be saved, although Christ says, “Take up your cross and follow me,” and…
be like the Good Samaritan, and…
follow the Commandments, and…
do the will of my Father, and…
the sheep on his right will be saved, “for I was hungry and you gave me to eat…”

…What Christ really meant was, you don’t have to DO anything.
Those who know about Him and know he’s God will be saved; those who don’t know about Him will be condemned. Our behavior has no effect on our salvation.

Catholic Church:

Since Christ said to do all those things, in the context of salvation, he’s implying that we have a choice. His love is extreme, to the point of allowing us to participate in our own salvation, when we allow his love to be a work that we pathetic creatures perform. Our work of love is Christ’s love, and yes, it has saving power.

 

[Bible_Student]

Hi,
The Difference between Luther’s And The Catholic Church’s Salvation?

Salvation doesn’t belong to either Luther or the Catholic Church, neither is the way to our heavenly Father rest in anyone but our Lord Jesus alone.
Act 4:10-12
*"Let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. "This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” *

1Cor1:13-14
Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Saint Paul could have just as easily said of us today, "Now I say this to each of you who says, “I am of Luther” or “I am of the Pope”. Is Christ divided? Was Luther crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of the Pope?

There is no salvation but through Christ and ‘no man comes to the Father except through Him’ - to paraphrase John 14:6. This truth we know:

• All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. John 6:37 *

May God Bless, Pat

 

[mgrfin]

Have you ever checked out how bad that sort of thing is in the public school system? What about in other Protestant churches? How about families in general? That is not just a Catholic Church problem. It is the way our society is today. To say it is only a Catholic Church problem is to ignore the bigger problem which is society as a whole.

Christ came for sinners not the rightous. Christ said the wheat and the tares would grow together and he would divide them at the right time.

However this is getting us off track. Since that seems to seriously trouble you (this is not the first thread I have seen you mention this) why don’t you start a thread about it.

No, I don’t want to start a thread about this question.

Nella vicious, bigoted post was blocked yesterday.

I don’t want to feed her bias and prejudice, not one bit!

mgrfin

 

[john_ennis]

Hi,The Difference between Luther’s And The Catholic Church’s Salvation?
Salvation doesn’t belong to either Luther or the Catholic Church, neither is the way to our heavenly Father rest in anyone but our Lord Jesus alone.

Act 4:10-12 *"Let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole. "This is the ‘stone which was rejected by you builders, which has become the chief cornerstone.’ “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” *
1Cor1:13-14
Now I say this, that each of you says, “I am of Paul,” or “I am of Apollos,” or “I am of Cephas,” or “I am of Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Saint Paul could have just as easily said of us today, "Now I say this to each of you who says, “I am of Luther” or “I am of the Pope”. Is Christ divided? Was Luther crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of the Pope?

There is no salvation but through Christ and ‘no man comes to the Father except through Him’ - to paraphrase John 14:6. This truth we know:

*All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. John 6:37 *

May God Bless, Pat

Scripture has much to say about salvation. God clearly wants us to understand more than that it comes through Christ. He’s telling us how to act.

Therefore, it does not follow that a stark difference in understandings of what God wants from us and for us, is* inconsequential. *

I think we can all agree that Paul, Apollos, and Cephas, were all teaching the word of God. With regard to salvation, the Catholic Church and Luther cannot both be teaching the Word.

 

[francesco920]

It is so funny how you assume so much about what Protestants know. It is even funnier how you talk about morality in the wake of the biggest child sex abuse scandal in the history of mankind.

That is the one of the most ridiculous anti-Catholic statements I have ever heard.

How can you have such hatred in your heart?

 

[Renton405]

The Catholic view was okay for 1500 years, and weve managed for the 500 years afterwards.
mgrfin

So 30,000 divided denominations is the ‘managment’ for the past 500 years now??

The refomation has done nothing but divide christians. Which is exactly what Satan wants. He wants division and confusion…

 

[Renton405]

It is so funny how you assume so much about what Protestants know. It is even funnier how you talk about morality in the wake of the biggest child sex abuse scandal in the history of mankind.

We would be naïve and dishonest were we to say this is a Roman Catholic problem and has nothing to do with us because we have married and female priests in our church. Sin and abusive behavior know no ecclesial or other boundaries." Rt. Rev. William Persell, Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Chicago, Good Friday Sermon, 2002.

reformation.com/

so far almost 1000 sexual abuse cases in protestant churches…

Wonder why the media never reports them??

Rememer the Catholic Church is the medias numer 1 enemy. Hollywood hates christianity, but they hate the Catholic Church in paticular the most because of our stance on things like abortion and divorce…

 

[Nella]

We would be naïve and dishonest were we to say this is a Roman Catholic problem and has nothing to do with us because we have married and female priests in our church. Sin and abusive behavior know no ecclesial or other boundaries." Rt. Rev. William Persell, Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Chicago, Good Friday Sermon, 2002.

reformation.com/

so far almost 1000 sexual abuse cases in protestant churches…

Wonder why the media never reports them??

Rememer the Catholic Church is the medias numer 1 enemy. Hollywood hates christianity, but they hate the Catholic Church in paticular the most because of our stance on things like abortion and divorce…

The only thing sicker than what has transpired in the Roman Catholic Church is how it has been a non-issue to them. They act as if the innocent victims of these horrific acts are just litigation hungry beasts. And this is supposed to be the one true church of God?? Please…

 

[Nella]

That is the one of the most ridiculous anti-Catholic statements I have ever heard.

How can you have such hatred in your heart?

oh I’m sorry i have such hatred for child sexual abuse. I’m sorry I offended you with that.

 

[Nella]

That is the one of the most ridiculous anti-Catholic statements I have ever heard.

How can you have such hatred in your heart?

oh I’m sorry i have such hatred for child sexual abuse. I’m sorry I offended you with that.

 

[Contarini]

And this is supposed to be the one true church of God?? Please…

Unfortunately, no degree of depravity would surprise me in the true Church of God, however we define that Church.

Edwin

 

[Stephen_C]

oh I’m sorry i have such hatred for child sexual abuse. I’m sorry I offended you with that.

So we all do Nella. But child abuse was/is not just a Catholic problem. Did some Bishops handle the issue wrong…well yes they did. But society as a whole handled it wrong as well. What really bothers us Catholics is people keep throwing this in our face like this is/was only a Catholic problem.

 

[mgrfin]

The only thing sicker than what has transpired in the Roman Catholic Church is how it has been a non-issue to them. They act as if the innocent victims of these horrific acts are just litigation hungry beasts. And this is supposed to be the one true church of God?? Please…

Just another anti-Catholic rant, Nella.

It doesn’t deserve an answer.

mgrfin