The difference between the Anglican and Catholic liturgies?

[T_More]

I’ve been watching the Journey Home this evening with Grodi interviewing 3 former Anglican priests and discussing the recent Pastoral Provision (I hope I described that correctly) for Anglicans and they were talking about the differences between the two liturgies, but no specifics were talked about. What are they?

 

[Nine_Two]

The problem with a question like this is that Anglicans are spread across such a broad spectrum that it is difficult to answer. Some Anglicans are identical to Catholics, but just don’t recognise the Pope, while others would feel more at home in an Evangelical Church speaking in tongues.

So the real answer is, it depends on which Anglican you are talking about.

But at the very least they don’t recognise the authority of the Pope.

By the way, I say this as a former Anglican who at some time or another moved across most of that spectrum.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Well the question actually is about Anglican and Catholic liturgical similarities and differences I believe, and there are only two worship services in Anglican liturgy: Rite I and Rite II, one being more traditional in language and the other being a touch more modern. There is an absence of sacrificial language in both liturgies except for a “sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving.” I would say that the liturgies, in my experience as a Catholic and as an Anglican, are very much the same except for the sacrificial part. And the elevation of the Eucharist. The Confiteor and Marian references are also absent in the Anglican liturgy.

The problem with a question like this is that Anglicans are spread across such a broad spectrum that it is difficult to answer. Some Anglicans are identical to Catholics, but just don’t recognise the Pope, while others would feel more at home in an Evangelical Church speaking in tongues.

So the real answer is, it depends on which Anglican you are talking about.

But at the very least they don’t recognise the authority of the Pope.

By the way, I say this as a former Anglican who at some time or another moved across most of that spectrum.

 

[GKC]

The problem with a question like this is that Anglicans are spread across such a broad spectrum that it is difficult to answer. Some Anglicans are identical to Catholics, but just don’t recognise the Pope, while others would feel more at home in an Evangelical Church speaking in tongues.

So the real answer is, it depends on which Anglican you are talking about.

But at the very least they don’t recognise the authority of the Pope.

By the way, I say this as a former Anglican who at some time or another moved across most of that spectrum.

A sage reply. It almost always depends on which Anglican you’re talking about.

GKC

*Anglicanus-Catholicus

 

[GKC]

Well the question actually is about Anglican and Catholic liturgical similarities and differences I believe, and there are only two worship services in Anglican liturgy: Rite I and Rite II, one being more traditional in language and the other being a touch more modern. There is an absence of sacrificial language in both liturgies except for a “sacrifice of praise and thanksgiving.” I would say that the liturgies, in my experience as a Catholic and as an Anglican, are very much the same except for the sacrificial part. And the elevation of the Eucharist. The Confiteor and Marian references are also absent in the Anglican liturgy.

Depends on which Anglican. As I once said, you’ll find the Confiteor (and the
Orate Fratres), the elevations, of both the Body and the Blood, and the references to the BVM at my parish. And anywhere the Anglican Missal is used to supplement a 1928 BCP.

The 1979 book is not the be-all and end-all.

GKC

 

[Usbek_de_Perse]

Anglican liturgies range, as Catholic ones do, from quite informal to very formal and elegant. The most elegant use incense, have excellent music, and vestments that any RC communicant would recognize. They usually kneel to receive holy communion, and Anglicans are quite reverent about it.

There is a problem with Anglican liturgies, and that is that there are many Anglican national churches around the world and they have varied their liturgies for many centuries. For example, the Episcopal Church in the USA received its Episcopal orders (Bishop’s ordination) from the Scottish Episcopal Church. The Episcopal Church then decided to derive its Prayer Book (aka Missal) from the Scottish one. The Book of Divine Worship that Anglican Use parishes in the US use is derived from the controversial 1979 US Episcopal Church Book of Common Prayer. Both the Catholic version and the Episcopal version are over 900 pages long! By the way, the radical changes in the 1979 book are often influenced by Vatican II!.

So, when Anglican use comes to England, will they have to deal with a somewhat unpleasant American prayerbook?

I’m sure the Vatican will sort it out to the displeasure of all concerned.

 

[BernadetteM]

Actually the Anglican Use liturgy has very little in it from the 1979 BCP. There is much from the 1928 BCP and the Canon from the Roman Rite of 1970 or if you look at the Sarum Use the Consecration prayers are almost identical to them.

The few responses that you think are from the 1979 BCP from what I gather are the same responses from the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite Mass. That is where I believe the Episcopal church got them from.

In the Anglican Use liturgy they have inserted these short and not over 3 responses in such a way that they fit in quite nicely with the Anglican traditional liturgy. Of course now with the new Ordinardiate I understand that the Anglican Use liturgy will be changing, I am sure closer to the Anglican Missal or another Missal. Also the Roman Rite has translated the Mass much closer to the Latin and there will be many changes in that in the near future.

I am sure that all this is very confusing to the OP as unless you are familiar with both the Anglican liturgies or Catholic ones, these explanations are not going to be very helpful.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[GKC]

Here’s the Mass from the 1928 Book of Common Prayer:

justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/1928/HC.htm

Here’s the 1979 book, Rite I:

holycross-raleigh.org/bcp/323.html

Here’s the Book of Divine Worship:

atonementonline.com/orderofmass/Rite1.html

I’m still at a loss to see why you think the BDW is based more closely on the 1928 BCP than on the 1979. As I have noted before. Compare the Prayer for the Whole State of Christ’s Church, in all three, for example. And divers other places. Through the Comfortable Words, the BDW and the 1979 match closely. The biggest difference comes, naturally, in the actual Canon of the Mass, following; Words of Institution and epiclesis, etc. But overall, comparing the entire rites, line for line, the BDW and the Rite I of the 1979 book track closely. It is the 1928 BCP that differs, overall. But anyway, they may be compared, at these links. If a link is provided to a site giving the OF or EF for the RCC, that would also be useful.

GKC

Actually the Anglican Use liturgy has very little in it from the 1979 BCP. There is much from the 1928 BCP and the Canon from the Roman Rite of 1970 or if you look at the Sarum Use the Consecration prayers are almost identical to them.

The few responses that you think are from the 1979 BCP from what I gather are the same responses from the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite Mass. That is where I believe the Episcopal church got them from.

In the Anglican Use liturgy they have inserted these short and not over 3 responses in such a way that they fit in quite nicely with the Anglican traditional liturgy. Of course now with the new Ordinardiate I understand that the Anglican Use liturgy will be changing, I am sure closer to the Anglican Missal or another Missal. Also the Roman Rite has translated the Mass much closer to the Latin and there will be many changes in that in the near future.

I am sure that all this is very confusing to the OP as unless you are familiar with both the Anglican liturgies or Catholic ones, these explanations are not going to be very helpful.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[BernadetteM]

I also compared the AU Mass with the Sarum Use and although some parts are moved around there is much that is the same.

You must realize that the Episcopal church took the Roman Rite and used it in part for their 1979 prayer book.

I really don’t see that much taken from the 1979 BCP. One of the Anglican Use priest even said on the television that much was taken from the 1928 BCP. Where the Anglican prayers are lacking in accordance with the Catholic Churches requirements they were changed and additional prayers were added. The persons involved in creating the AU liturgy probably thought that the 1979 BCP was what all Episcopalians used, as that was the official prayer book at the time when the Pastoral Provision was established.

The order of the Mass is probably closer to the 1979, but it is the same in the Roman Rite. The most important prayers that are Anglican are included in the AU Mass. Since I was not in an Episcopal church that used the 1979 BCP I am not familiar with it. We used the missal and actually prayed for the Pope. Our liturgy was much richer than either of the BCP’s. I understand that there are many Anglicans that will only use the 1928 BCP and that reminds me of people who will only use the King James Bible. There are many different liturgies and each have their own beauty.

Now that Rome will be changing the AU liturgy, I hope and so do many others that they will use an Anglican type of missal, of course with whatever is lacking .

In my former parish we used the Missal and it was very close to the EF Mass.

I also didn’t see that much difference between the 1979 and 1928 except for the additions which closely match the Roman Rite.

Please look up Fr. Chadwicks translation of the Sarum Use, although the words used are changed a lilttle in their sequence there is much that is in the AU liturgy.

I understand that it is a hodgepodge in some ways, but this is what Rome wanted. We must remember that the Latin Church is not familiar with Anglican rites, but since there has been an Anglican Use liturgy for over 28 years I feel that has changed.

I think now that Pope Benedict is over the Apostolic Constitution that our priests will have more to say about our Anglican Patrimony and how the liturgy will be written.

For me I don’t want another 1928 BCP as far as the Mass goes. I feel that the revision of the BDW will follow very closely to much of what Anglicans want, except it will be more in line with the Anglican/American missal. I actually like most of the Sarum Use with adaptations from one of the missals I feel it would be perfect. I understand that some of the Anglo Catholics in England used the OF Mass, but I don’t think that will be an option, if that is what they want they should just join the local Latin Rite parish.

I didn’t notice any prayers to the saints in the 1979 BCP, did I miss them? As an Anglo Catholic they were included. The AU priests have always wanted something different, but took what they were given and that is one of the differences in the Catholic Church and the Anglican mindset. There is no submission that I can see in the Episcopal church.

Well I shouldn’t say no submission, as if a priest or parish rejects the heretical abuses that have become TEC, the priest is out the door in some cases. I would not call that submission, but using their power to force Anglicans to accept heretical doctrines.

It is much worse now, if a priest differs with what is going on with TEC they can lose their parish, I know of one who spoke his mind and now has no permanent parish. He is not an Anglo Catholic, but is going to come into the Catholic Church

I will concede that there are parts from the 1979 BCP, but much is not. However the new liturgy turns out Anglicans and others really should not be too concerned as it doesn’t affect them at all.

I notoiced on an Anglican forum, now that all is done and over there is very little activity on it. The Anglicans going to Rome are no longer posting so they have no one to browbeat anymore. It was a very nasty place, nothing like CAF. The attitudes were lacking in any Christian charity towards Anglicans who were swimming the Tiber.

You never mention what church you belong to, but I suspect it is one of the Continuing Anglican churches.

I appreciate your gracious manner in responding to posters who disagree with your comments. You do put light in your posts and that is needed when things get too hot on the forums.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[GKC]

I am still totally at a lose to see how you reach the conclusion about the AU/Rite I of the 1979 book. They are roughly 80-90% identical, line by line.

I suggest to anyone here: open the AU Book of Divine worship, at the link above. Read through to the Sanctus/Benedictus qui venit (to p. 4, up to the Liturgy of the Eucharist). Then open the link to the 1970 Rite I and do the same (through the 11th page). Compare the intros for the Readings. Compare the responses And, as I said, the Prayer for the Whole Church is a good example.

The opening words of each are: (BDW) "

  "Blessed be God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." 

  R. "And blessed be his kingdom, now and for ever. Amen."

1979 Rite I: “Blessed be God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.”

People. “And blessed be his kingdom, now and for ever. Amen.”

Then open the 1928 BCP. Compare through the * Sanctus/Benedictus qui venit* (it’s all one page).

If you really cannot see that the BDW and the Rite I from the 1979 book are almost identical, up to the words of institution, and again from the Words of Administration on, and that the 1928 Book differs, in language, from both the other two, I don’t know how to make it clearer.

I heard what Fr. Longnecker said, as to the AU and the 1928 Book. I would make the same statement to him. I would suggest anyone here who is interested (assuming anyone is) to merely read over the 3 liturgies, and note the language. Where there are differences among them, they often are merely in ways of expression something. But where they do differ, the 1928 differs from the other two.

I too hear that the new Ordinariates can expect a revised liturgy and I look forward to seeing it. I too hope it will derive from the Missal, as far as possible and a revivial of the Sarum Use, officially, would also be fascinating.

I often mention that I am a traditional Continuing Anglican. If you missed it, watch for the occasional signature “posterus traditus Anglicanus” below my "GKC.

Your concluding words are kind and I thank you. I continue to watch for any further action following on the apostolic constitution.

Meanwhile, my parish is searching for a new priest. Our rector, a firebreathing Anglo-Catholic, died suddenly in his sleep last month. Tomorrrow is his thirty-day mind, and we will have a special Requiem Mass. Prayers for the repose of the soul of Craig, a priest, are solicited.

GKC

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

In all the Anglican Masses I’ve ever participated in or watched locally or on video it was rite I or rite II or the 79 Prayer Book. I realize some folks like the 28 Prayer Book and use it. I’m sure some elevate hosts and maybe even use incense or speak in Latin, heck, maybe even in Klingon, but usually it’s the 79 Rite I or Rite II in my experience…but you’re correct that ANYTHING is possible in the Anglican world. I think the OP was asking in general what the differences and similarities are. I just pointed out the common ones. Like I told you before, we had a guy at St. Paul’s that came every Christmas, I mean EVERY Christmas, dressed as a court jester complete with a bell on his hat and the multiple colors, totally in left field…yes, anything is possible with Anglicanism!

Depends on which Anglican. As I once said, you’ll find the Confiteor (and the
Orate Fratres), the elevations, of both the Body and the Blood, and the references to the BVM at my parish. And anywhere the Anglican Missal is used to supplement a 1928 BCP.

The 1979 book is not the be-all and end-all.

GKC

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

GKC is our local fire department for controversy, puts out the fires…updraft style, with a whole lotta Latin and quotations mixed in…

I appreciate your gracious manner in responding to posters who disagree with your comments. You do put light in your posts and that is needed when things get too hot on the forums.

God Bless

Bernadette

 

[chris_molter]

In all the Anglican Masses I’ve ever participated in or watched locally or on video it was rite I or rite II or the 79 Prayer Book. I realize some folks like the 28 Prayer Book and use it.

Don’t forget that’s only considering US Anglicans (the 79 and 28 BCPs). Other Anglicans have other Prayer Books. Personally I think we ought to use the old 1637 Scottish BCP and the Sarum Missal as a basis for replacing the BDW for the new Anglican Ordinariates.

justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Scotland/BCP_1637.htm
justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/Sarum/index.htm