The difference in salvation

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Eruvande

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One of the things I am struggling with is salvation and how much of it is our doing. I’m coming from a Calvinist perspective and understand salvation to be something that isn’t dependent upon what I do.

One of the distinguishing features of Christianity for me is that other religions have to work their way to God, but Christianity has God working down to us. What’s the Catholic view?
 
One of the things I am struggling with is salvation and how much of it is our doing. I’m coming from a Calvinist perspective and understand salvation to be something that isn’t dependent upon what I do.

One of the distinguishing features of Christianity for me is that other religions have to work their way to God, but Christianity has God working down to us. What’s the Catholic view?
Sorta kind of both. He’re I’ll explain. The Catholic Church believes that salvation consists of both. Faith and Works, basing itself off the Bible when it says:

[BIBLEDRB]James 2:14-26[/BIBLEDRB]

If someone becomes/is Christian (or maybe just Catholic in particular) and they kill someone, or cheat on their spouse, or rape someone or rob a bank, you won’t go to Heaven. We basically don’t believe in “Once Saved Always Saved”

God bless :byzsoc:

David
 
UNLESS, that person repents and asks for forgiveness. Don’t forget that part!
 
In a nutshell, none of it is our doing. Without Christ we can never earn our salvation. It is only by accepting Christ as our Savior and relying on the grace and mercy of God that we can be saved. Having said that, Scripture says that God in the form of the Holy Spirit dwells within us, how can we then not act with compassion and charity toward those in need. James says we are justified by our works. I am justified in calling myself a father because I have children, my children are my evidence to the world of my fatherhood. Likewise, when we extend God’s love to the world through kindness and ministering to others we show the effect Christ has had in our life. Like the song says, “The only thing good in me is Jesus.”
 
So salvation is of God entirely through grace, but we must live out that grace with good works? It’s all about doing good works in response to God’s grace, rather than doing good works to earn God’s grace?
 
So salvation is of God entirely through grace, but we must live out that grace with good works? It’s all about doing good works in response to God’s grace, rather than doing good works to earn God’s grace?
I would say your on the right track. We cannot earn Gods Grace. It is given to us out of Gods love as a free gift. You could say Faith and good works is our co-operation with Gods Grace.

1 Phil 2:12-13. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for God is at work in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Hence we do play a role in our own salvation, and that role would be co-operating with Grace
 
So salvation is of God entirely through grace, but we must live out that grace with good works? It’s all about doing good works in response to God’s grace, rather than doing good works to earn God’s grace?
It has a lot to do with free will. God gives us grace freely, but we are capable of rejecting it (or accepting it) through our actions. As that passage in James shows, even the demons have faith: it is what they do (or don’t do) with that faith which defines them as demons.
 
Yes, I’m reading James with fresh eyes. I’ve so long been conditioned against free will, it’s quite a concept to address.
 
One of the things I am struggling with is salvation and how much of it is our doing. I’m coming from a Calvinist perspective and understand salvation to be something that isn’t dependent upon what I do.

One of the distinguishing features of Christianity for me is that other religions have to work their way to God, but Christianity has God working down to us. What’s the Catholic view?
Hi, Eruvande…

This may of great resource to you…Dr. David Anders, former Calvinist and a historian to boot:

calvin2catholic.com/Home.html

He appeared on CA Live and the link is below, From comments, listen to the question on minute 41…

calledtocommunion.com/author/davidanders/
 
Catholics believe that all people are born with original sin inherited from our first parents. We are born completely cut off from God and destined for hell. Through baptism, we are bought back from the devil. Being a Calvinist, you probably believed in pre-destination, that people were going to heaven or hell upon the decision of God, and we have nothing to do with it. That is completely opposite from what Catholics believe. Catholics believe that God’s mercy extends to everyone, although the only road to heaven is through Jesus Christ. Our part in it is just the same as when Our Blessed Mother said yes to the Angel Gabriel when asked if she would give birth to the Messiah. In order for Our Lord to work the miracle of washing away our sins, we must first say yes.

However, one big difference between Catholics and most Protestants is that we do not believe that once you are saved, you cannot lose your salvation. Catholics definitely believe that it is possible to fall from grace. That we why we have the Sacraments, Mass, many and varied devotions, etc. etc.

Catholics do not believe we earn our salvation in any way. The stories in the Gospels about Christ raising the dead is just as when He washes away our sins and brings us to spiritual life. Just as the physically dead could not raise themselves, so we cannot give spiritual life to ourselves. However, as stated above, we do believe we can lose our salvation through sin. That is where the work comes in. Yet, we can only do that work through faith and the grace and mercy of God.

I hope that makes some sense to you.
 
In a nutshell, none of it is our doing. Without Christ we can never earn our salvation. It is only by accepting Christ as our Savior and relying on the grace and mercy of God that we can be saved. Having said that, Scripture says that God in the form of the Holy Spirit dwells within us, how can we then not act with compassion and charity toward those in need. James says we are justified by our works. I am justified in calling myself a father because I have children, my children are my evidence to the world of my fatherhood. Likewise, when we extend God’s love to the world through kindness and ministering to others we show the effect Christ has had in our life. Like the song says, “The only thing good in me is Jesus.”
Steve I was raised in the “church of Christ”, and to my childhood congregation baptism (as a mature beleiver, by total immersion) was one of the five steps of salvation. Hear gospel,beleive, confess Christ, repent, and immersion baptism for the forgiveness of sins.

That is what I was taught, and was baptised at age 16.

This was an accapella “church of Christ”, where we were taught there were no other Christians but us. Others were called “members of denominations”.

Is this the same CofC you belong to? OR are there other churches going by that name that teach baptism is optional or done after you “get saved”?,
 
Hi, Eruvande…

This may of great resource to you…Dr. David Anders, former Calvinist and a historian to boot:

calvin2catholic.com/Home.html

He appeared on CA Live and the link is below, From comments, listen to the question on minute 41…
calledtocommunion.com/author/davidanders/
Wow, thank you, that looks right up my street!
Catholics believe that all people are born with original sin inherited from our first parents. We are born completely cut off from God and destined for hell. Through baptism, we are bought back from the devil. Being a Calvinist, you probably believed in pre-destination, that people were going to heaven or hell upon the decision of God, and we have nothing to do with it. That is completely opposite from what Catholics believe. Catholics believe that God’s mercy extends to everyone, although the only road to heaven is through Jesus Christ. Our part in it is just the same as when Our Blessed Mother said yes to the Angel Gabriel when asked if she would give birth to the Messiah. In order for Our Lord to work the miracle of washing away our sins, we must first say yes.

However, one big difference between Catholics and most Protestants is that we do not believe that once you are saved, you cannot lose your salvation. Catholics definitely believe that it is possible to fall from grace. That we why we have the Sacraments, Mass, many and varied devotions, etc. etc.

Catholics do not believe we earn our salvation in any way. The stories in the Gospels about Christ raising the dead is just as when He washes away our sins and brings us to spiritual life. Just as the physically dead could not raise themselves, so we cannot give spiritual life to ourselves. However, as stated above, we do believe we can lose our salvation through sin. That is where the work comes in. Yet, we can only do that work through faith and the grace and mercy of God.

I hope that makes some sense to you.
Yes, I’m rethinking predestination too. There’s just so much to look at afresh and engage on a different level. I’m honestly quite scared to begin this journey, but I’m increasingly finding it impossible to ignore everything I’m coming across. I would lose so much in becoming Catholic. So I guess my focus should be on simply learning the truth, rather than stressing about where the journey might take me. 🙂
 
Wow, thank you, that looks right up my street!

Yes, I’m rethinking predestination too. There’s just so much to look at afresh and engage on a different level. I’m honestly quite scared to begin this journey, but I’m increasingly finding it impossible to ignore everything I’m coming across. I would lose so much in becoming Catholic. So I guess my focus should be on simply learning the truth, rather than stressing about where the journey might take me. 🙂
Take your time and God will lead you through it all.
 
In a nutshell, none of it is our doing. Without Christ we can never earn our salvation. It is only by accepting Christ as our Savior and relying on the grace and mercy of God that we can be saved. Having said that, Scripture says that God in the form of the Holy Spirit dwells within us, how can we then not act with compassion and charity toward those in need. James says we are justified by our works. I am justified in calling myself a father because I have children, my children are my evidence to the world of my fatherhood. Likewise, when we extend God’s love to the world through kindness and ministering to others we show the effect Christ has had in our life. Like the song says, “The only thing good in me is Jesus.”
The questions I have about your post are these: Are we able to refuse to do good works? (not whether we should or not) What happens if we refuse to do good works?
 
“This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world [at His first coming] to save sinners”

Pakistan Geo News
 
The questions I have about your post are these: Are we able to refuse to do good works? (not whether we should or not) What happens if we refuse to do good works?
Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. (Matthew 7:21)

-Tim-
 
Earth is God’s gift to humanity. Water and air are God’s gift to humanity. Family is God’s gift to humanity. Jesus is God’s gift to humanity. Salvation is God’s gift to humanity.

Scriptural Reference Guide from catholic.com/tracts/scriptural-reference-guide-0

Faith and Works

“‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord,” shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven’” (Matt. 7:21).

“‘Why do you call me “Lord, Lord,” and not do what I tell you?’” (Luke 6:46).

“For he will render every man according to his works . . .” (Rom. 2:6-8).

“For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified” (Rom. 2:13).

"For if we sin deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful prospect of judgments . . . (Heb. 10:26-27).

“What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?” (Jas. 2:14).

“So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead” (Jas. 2:17).

"But some one will say, ‘You have faith and I have works.’ Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. . . .Do you want to be shown, you foolish fellow, that faith apart from works is barren? (Jas. 2:18-20).

“You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone” (Jas. 2:24).
 
Yes, I’m rethinking predestination too. There’s just so much to look at afresh and engage on a different level. I’m honestly quite scared to begin this journey, but I’m increasingly finding it impossible to ignore everything I’m coming across. I would lose so much in becoming Catholic. So I guess my focus should be on simply learning the truth, rather than stressing about where the journey might take me. 🙂
I’m curious. When you say you lose so much in becoming Catholic, are you talking about family and friends, are you talking spiritually? Going from Calvinist to Catholic is a huge step, and I admire you for taking it slow. It would mean an entire new mindset, and if you jump in too fast, you might be too overwhelmed and end up with nothing. Just keep asking the Holy Spirit to lead and guide you, and I have no doubt He will show you the right way. I will most definitely include you in my prayers. Our Lord said, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened. You seem truly sincere, so I have no doubt you will end up in the right place.
 
I’m curious. When you say you lose so much in becoming Catholic, are you talking about family and friends, are you talking spiritually? Going from Calvinist to Catholic is a huge step, and I admire you for taking it slow. It would mean an entire new mindset, and if you jump in too fast, you might be too overwhelmed and end up with nothing. Just keep asking the Holy Spirit to lead and guide you, and I have no doubt He will show you the right way. I will most definitely include you in my prayers. Our Lord said, seek and you shall find, knock and it shall be opened. You seem truly sincere, so I have no doubt you will end up in the right place.
Thank you. When I talk about losing things - I mean my family and all my friends. I don’t know anyone who isn’t a reformed baptist. They would be horrified that I’m even questioning things like this.
 
Wow, thank you, that looks right up my street!

Yes, I’m rethinking predestination too. There’s just so much to look at afresh and engage on a different level. I’m honestly quite scared to begin this journey, but I’m increasingly finding it impossible to ignore everything I’m coming across. I would lose so much in becoming Catholic. So I guess my focus should be on simply learning the truth, rather than stressing about where the journey might take me. 🙂
Predestination is not simply Calvinist, don’t forget how much Calvin relied on St. Augustine. Even with the hardening of reprobation.

Predestination is Catholic, whether you explain it as Augustine, Aquinas or Molina. These explanations of Predestination and Perseverance of the Saints are Scriptural and enshrined in our Tradition.

Further, Grace only is also Catholic. Pelagianism and semi-pelagianism were condemned in the 5th C. Nobody earns grace! It is God’s gift!
 
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