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Pathway2
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I am curious to what makes Catholic Catholic and Orthodox Orthodox?
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PaulfromIowa
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Catholic means universal, worldwide. Orthodox means faithful to the Gospel. The Church of Christ should be both catholic and orthodox. Christ established one church with four essential marks: One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic.
See the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm
See the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm
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Spyridon
Guest
The Pope.
Everything else is, at the end of the day, inconsequential. All debates between EO and CC lead back to the same issue: the Pope.
Everything else is, at the end of the day, inconsequential. All debates between EO and CC lead back to the same issue: the Pope.
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Profete
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Catholic does not mean Universal. Ecumenical means universal. Catholic means fullness. St. Augustine changed the meaning of Greek word Catholic.
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Spyridon
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That’s an overly simplistic and incomplete view — you are half right @Profete, but also half wrong. Catholic does mean, primarily, Universal. It also means, secondarily, “according to the whole; lacking nothing”.
The word catholic (with lowercase c; derived via Late Latin catholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning “universal”) comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου (katholou), meaning “on the whole”, “according to the whole” or “in general”, and is a combination of the Greek words κατά meaning “about” and ὅλος meaning “whole”. The term Catholic (usually written with uppercase C in English) was first used to describe the Christian Church in the early 2nd century to emphasize its universal scope.
St. Ignatius of Antioch, the early 2nd century Bishop and Martyr, writes:
“Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”
This is the earliest occurrence in Christian literature of the phrase ‘the Catholic Church’ (ἡ καθολικὴ ἐκκλησία). The original sense of the word is ‘universal’. Thus Justin Martyr (Dial. 82) speaks of the ‘universal or general resurrection’, using the words ἡ καθολικὴ ἀνάστασις.
Similarly here the Church universal is contrasted with the particular Church of Smyrna. Ignatius means by the Catholic Church ‘the aggregate of all the Christian congregations’ (Swete, Apostles Creed, p. 76). So too the letter of the Church of Smyrna is addressed to all the congregations of the Holy Catholic Church in every place.
And this primitive sense of ‘universal’ the word has never lost, although in the latter part of the second century it began to receive the secondary sense of ‘orthodox’ as opposed to ‘heretical’. Thus it is used in an early Canon of Scripture, the Muratorian fragment (circa 170 A.D.), which refers to certain heretical writings as ‘not received in the Catholic Church’. So too Cyril of Jerusalem, in the fourth century, says that the Church is called Catholic not only ‘because it is spread throughout the world’, but also ‘because it teaches completely and without defect all the doctrines which ought to come to the knowledge of men’. This secondary sense arose out of the original meaning because Catholics claimed to teach the whole truth, and to represent the whole Church, while heresy arose out of the exaggeration of some one truth and was essentially partial and local.
The word catholic (with lowercase c; derived via Late Latin catholicus, from the Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning “universal”) comes from the Greek phrase καθόλου (katholou), meaning “on the whole”, “according to the whole” or “in general”, and is a combination of the Greek words κατά meaning “about” and ὅλος meaning “whole”. The term Catholic (usually written with uppercase C in English) was first used to describe the Christian Church in the early 2nd century to emphasize its universal scope.
St. Ignatius of Antioch, the early 2nd century Bishop and Martyr, writes:
“Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.”
This is the earliest occurrence in Christian literature of the phrase ‘the Catholic Church’ (ἡ καθολικὴ ἐκκλησία). The original sense of the word is ‘universal’. Thus Justin Martyr (Dial. 82) speaks of the ‘universal or general resurrection’, using the words ἡ καθολικὴ ἀνάστασις.
Similarly here the Church universal is contrasted with the particular Church of Smyrna. Ignatius means by the Catholic Church ‘the aggregate of all the Christian congregations’ (Swete, Apostles Creed, p. 76). So too the letter of the Church of Smyrna is addressed to all the congregations of the Holy Catholic Church in every place.
And this primitive sense of ‘universal’ the word has never lost, although in the latter part of the second century it began to receive the secondary sense of ‘orthodox’ as opposed to ‘heretical’. Thus it is used in an early Canon of Scripture, the Muratorian fragment (circa 170 A.D.), which refers to certain heretical writings as ‘not received in the Catholic Church’. So too Cyril of Jerusalem, in the fourth century, says that the Church is called Catholic not only ‘because it is spread throughout the world’, but also ‘because it teaches completely and without defect all the doctrines which ought to come to the knowledge of men’. This secondary sense arose out of the original meaning because Catholics claimed to teach the whole truth, and to represent the whole Church, while heresy arose out of the exaggeration of some one truth and was essentially partial and local.
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thistle
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The Orthodox are a schismatic part of the Catholic Church.
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Profete
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How can we be both schismatic and part of the Catholic Church. Schism is the Greek word and it means to cut off. We have cut off, forget us.
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Spyridon
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Just because there is a rupture in Communion does not mean they are totally fallen away from the Faith.
They still have doctrinal orthodoxy, apostolic succession, a valid priesthood, valid Mysteries, etc.
They are just sadly not in full communion with the Holy See, and the effects of that are clearly seen in how the Orthodox are utterly unable to solve theological or jurisdictional disputes in any conclusive manner.
They still have doctrinal orthodoxy, apostolic succession, a valid priesthood, valid Mysteries, etc.
They are just sadly not in full communion with the Holy See, and the effects of that are clearly seen in how the Orthodox are utterly unable to solve theological or jurisdictional disputes in any conclusive manner.
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Profete
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Full communion? What other sorts of communions are there? Half-full? Half-empty communion? I know that we aren’t in any communion with the Holy See, not full or any other half-full communion.
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Spyridon
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Imperfect or partial Communion.
I’m not sure why you rebel so much at the idea of full communion.
His Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I does not share your anti-Ecumenism allergy. He is a great man of God, and an example for all Orthodox Christians to follow.
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I’m not sure why you rebel so much at the idea of full communion.
His Holiness Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I does not share your anti-Ecumenism allergy. He is a great man of God, and an example for all Orthodox Christians to follow.
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Profete
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It is just a kiss, has nothing to do with Communion. Communion is when Orthodox Bishops mentioned each other at the Liturgy and Commune from the same Cup if they celebrate together Liturgy.
I have kissed on a cheak some Catholic friends, does not make me half-Communion with Rome.
I have kissed on a cheak some Catholic friends, does not make me half-Communion with Rome.
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Spyridon
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Not half communion.
Imperfect communion.
Imperfect communion.
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Profete
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Crete’s Council has rejected idea of Branch Theory or the Theory if the Invisible Church. It has declared that the Orthodox Church’s ontological nature does not allow Her unity to be perturbed.
So we are not in any kind of Communion with you. And there is only One Communion, and it Perfect and is Liturgical.
So we are not in any kind of Communion with you. And there is only One Communion, and it Perfect and is Liturgical.
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Spyridon
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The One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church also does not accept branch theory or an invisible Church.
The whole Universe is being drawn into Communion with Christ, Who Is the Church. Therefore everything in the Universe is in some degree of Communion with Christ, for in him we live and move and have our being, and he holds all things that exist together.
The whole Universe is being drawn into Communion with Christ, Who Is the Church. Therefore everything in the Universe is in some degree of Communion with Christ, for in him we live and move and have our being, and he holds all things that exist together.
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Profete
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We don’t accept this idea of “Degree of Communion” too.
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Spyridon
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So you would not accept that Christ is the center of the Universe, and everything is being drawn to him?
You would not accept that every human on earth is in some degree of relationship to God, some greater some lesser?
How would that square with Gods Omnipresence, Gods Sovereignty, Christs Kingship and Christs Redemption of the Cosmos?
You would not accept that every human on earth is in some degree of relationship to God, some greater some lesser?
How would that square with Gods Omnipresence, Gods Sovereignty, Christs Kingship and Christs Redemption of the Cosmos?
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Profete
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No, i don’t accept degree of Communion between the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church.
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Ernie07
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My understanding is that the Orthodox church is in communion with the Catholic Church in the sense that it agrees with the first 7 ecumenical councils (Nicaea 325 A.D. to Nicaea 787 A.D.). The schism occurred after that and resulted in the Orthodox church not recognizing the later councils. That is why there are such similarities between the two groups (valid priesthood, Eucharist, infant baptism, praying for the dead, etc.) while not so with others like the Immaculate Conception that was decreed later. I think that is why some say the Orthodox church is both “a part of” and “schismatic”.
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