The Dilemma: the Christian Conception of Jesus vs. the Muslim Conception of Jesus

[tonyrey]

Atonement is critical, of course, if it was proven that there was something to atone for.

Did Jesus Himself talk about atonement anywhere?

Yes!

20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.
24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26 I have made you

 

[Charlemagne_III]

You are obviously failing to read what I write and cite (in addition to failing to answer my question):

You are not alone in noticing this. I have asked him the same question several times and he acts as if he never heard it. What that means is that dialogue is on his terms only.

No ground for dialogue.

 

[tonyrey]

Atonement is critical, of course, if it was proven that there was something to atone for.

Did Jesus Himself talk about atonement anywhere?

Yes!

“My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.

24 “Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

25 “Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me.26 I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

John: 20-26

That is the basic meaning of atonement…

We are disunited by our lack of love for one another.

 

[tonyrey]

You are not alone in noticing this. I have asked him the same question several times and he acts as if he never heard it. What that means is that dialogue is on his terms only.

No ground for dialogue.

It amounts to counterpoint without a point!

 

[TarkanAttila]

So, I guess you shan’t reply to this, Counterpoint? Does it really provide you the answer you were (or perhaps weren’t) looking for?

ANSWER ME, CAT.

And is blasphemous according to the Moslems.

Mark 2:

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%202

Mark is one of the earliest gospels, and probably the least distorted in its views (according to “scholars”). Who can forgive sins but the person to whom sins have been done, or God?

Or let’s try an earlier example than that: Paul’s first known letter, the first to the Thessalonians. biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20Thessalonians%205

Many times St. Paul makes references to God and to “the Lord” and “the Lord Jesus Christ”. But in Chapter Five he says:

and

and further still

and finally

Not that this proves Christ is God. But why should St. Paul speak of Him as being equal to God, and not mean such? This seems to be the implication of Paul’s words here, particularly v.10, 23, 27, etc.

So your claim seems to contradict the earliest claims of Christianity.

 

[Contarini]

Yes, I do.

Merriam-Webster defines “primitive” as “belonging to or characteristic of an early stage of development : crude, rudimentary.”

I consider ritual sacrifices to appease a deity or deities to be a primitive, crude, and rudimimentary form of religious practice. I do not believe that we have to appease a bloodthirsty God. Apparently, you do.

Merriam-Webster is nothing more than a record of how words are most commonly used. Please stop using it as if it was a theological or philosophical authority.

You still haven’t made an argument. You’ve just used a lot of smear words.

What do you think “primitive” people were doing with blood sacrifice? What scholarship have you read on the subject? Are you familiar with Rene Girard’s theories? Do you perhaps think Girard was wrong (I’ve just started reading Violence and the Sacred myself and am not sure what I think) and have others you prefer? My own views are still under development. I’m open to learning here, but your reading seems confined so far to Merriam-Webster and Wikipedia, so I’m not sure how much I will learn from you.

Blood sacrifice clearly expresses some kind of basic human need to atone for sin. I don’t dismiss this. I also don’t simply embrace it. I take it seriously and I think that the Christian understanding of Jesus’ death as the victory over evil and the ultimate sacrifice that ends sacrifice is profound and thoroughly tenable. You have not even begun to mount an actual argument against it.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Contarini has succeeded in derailing this thread. However, I must take some responsibility for this derailing because I responded to his request. At any rate, I will not comment any further on the ritual sacrifices as portrayed in the Bible or the sacrificial death of Christ. That’s a topic for another thread. And since the powers that be (the members of the forum’s inquisition) are placing a limit on the number of threads that I can create, that’s a topic that I am not at liberty to pursue at this time.

You started a fake thread. In short, you lied. You pretended to have a “dilemma” you don’t actually have. I invited you to have an honest conversation, and I suppose we have had an honest conversation of sorts, inasmuch as you have revealed that you know nothing about Christian theology and think that you can refute Christianity based on Biblical proof-texts and Merriam-Webster definitions.

If you want to say that a religion is “intellectually untenable,” you need to have read the best theologians of that religion. That’s a pretty tall order–it takes a lifetime (at least) to get to the point where you can declare any of the great religions intellectually untenable. Otherwise you’re just engaging in childish arrogance.

Edwin

 

[orang]

If people don’t understand the elements of romance there is no chance in understanding Christianity.

 

[Bahman]

But without tasting death he couldn’t conquer it.

Beating death, we have enough example of that in history too, such as, Horus 3000BC from Egypt, Attis 1200BC from Greece, Krishna 900BC from India, Dionysus
500 BC from Greece, Mithra 1000BC From Persia, and many others, all have the same attribute as Jesus.

 

[ericc]

I am facing this dilemma, namely, the choice between accepting the Christian conception of Jesus or the Muslim conception of Jesus. The Christian argues that Jesus is the incarnation of God and unless I believe this I will go to hell. The Christian also argues that we know these things are true because the Holy Bible tells us so. The Muslim argues that Jesus is not the incarnation of God and if I believe in such a notion I will go to hell. The Muslim also argues that we know these things are true because the Holy Qur’an tells us so.

What should I believe? I don’t want to go to hell. I’m scared. Help me!

The difference is that Jesus talks about himself, tells us what heaven is like and he proves it by his actions, his miracles, his teachings,way of life AND empowering his disciples to heal, cast out demons etc.

The prophet of the Koran doesn’t know Jesus personally, he is a few hundred years late and his actions and way of life is a big disconnect from the Abrahamic God he claims to represent (which BTW is not apparent at all as he couldn’t differentiate between a jinn or a messenger from god and relies entirely on the testimony of his wife, a thrice married woman whose previous husband uses the service of a jinn) which in the Koran is worth half a man. His followers do not have the empowerment from God and I have not read any miracles or prophecies from them or the prophet himself that represent gifts from God.

 

[tonyrey]

Beating death, we have enough example of that in history too, such as, Horus 3000BC from Egypt, Attis 1200BC from Greece, Krishna 900BC from India, Dionysus
500 BC from Greece, Mithra 1000BC From Persia, and many others, all have the same attribute as Jesus.

That is hardly surprising because belief in spiritual reality has existed from the dawn of civilisation. Religion reflects universal awareness that we are essentially different from inanimate objects.

 

[petra22]

Commit a sin to clean a sin? This seems illogical to me especially when it comes to God. Moreover God died but he was resurrected so what is the sacrifice?

The sacrifice was a young man giving up his life to show YOU and Us that this life is not all there is… Did it work for you? did for me!

 

[tonyrey]

The sacrifice was a young man giving up his life to show YOU and Us that this life is not all there is… Did it work for you? did for me!

“young” is the key word.

 

[Bahman]

The sacrifice was a young man giving up his life to show YOU and Us that this life is not all there is… Did it work for you? did for me!

And what is sacrifice if you leave this world full of suffering to a place which grants you absolute fulfillment in presence of God?

 

[Servant19]

Yes!

John: 20-26

That is the basic meaning of atonement…

We are disunited by our lack of love for one another.

Thank you so much for this tonyrey. I was under the impression that Jesus’ sacrifice was for the atonement of an inherited evil nature presiding within all of us passed down from the descendants of Adam and Eve.

Is this incorrect therefore?



.

 

[Servant19]

The sacrifice was a young man giving up his life to show YOU and Us that this life is not all there is… Did it work for you? did for me!

.

 

[Servant19]

And what is sacrifice if you leave this world full of suffering to a place which grants you absolute fulfillment in presence of God?

I think the true sacrifice was in the horrendous suffering.

I think you will find that Muhammad and all the Prophets of God endured great suffering and sacrificed their all to promote the Faith of God.



.

 

[Charlemagne_III]

And what is sacrifice if you leave this world full of suffering to a place which grants you absolute fulfillment in presence of God?

Life is good and we naturally cringe at the thought of pain and suffering and agony. So the sacrifice Jesus offered was the pain and suffering and agony so that we might enjoy “absolute fulfillment in the presence of God.”

 

[tonyrey]

Thank you so much for this tonyrey. I was under the impression that Jesus’ sacrifice was for the atonement of an inherited evil nature presiding within all of us passed down from the descendants of Adam and Eve.

Is this incorrect therefore?

We are disunited because we find it difficult to resist temptation as the result of original sin and often give in but we are also strengthened by the power of Christ’s love:

CCC 405 Although it is proper to each individual original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called “concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c1.htm

 

[Ben_Quincy]

Thread has gone off topic.