The disciples "get the spirit"

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Why do different things happen in John 20 and Acts 2 when the disciples receive the Holy Spirit? What was the difference between the Holy Spirit descending on them and Jesus breathing (it? him?) onto them? Does the day of Pentecost “count more”? thanx–KC
 
I would distinguish between the two as distinguishing between Baptism and Confirmation.

Here’s what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says:

***1262 *The different effects of Baptism are signified by the perceptible elements of the sacramental rite. Immersion in water symbolizes not only death and purification, but also regeneration and renewal. Thus the two principal effects are purification from sins and new birth in the Holy Spirit.

1302 It is evident from its celebration that the effect of the sacrament of Confirmation is the special outpouring of the Holy Spirit as once granted to the apostles on the day of Pentecost.

The baptised person receives a new spirit (spiritual inclination). God places His Holy Spirit to help the person remain righteous. He has been made suitable as a Temple of the Holy Spirit for God to dwell.

At confirmation with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit we receive the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit: Wisdom, Understanding, Right Judgement, Courage, Knowledge, Reverence and Fear of the Lord. We become soldiers of Christ.
 
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut Regina. This is still confusing to me, but for sure you’ve given me some new perspective. 👍 Kaycee
 
Jn 20 also gives a hint that this would seem the first installation of the Catholic Holy Orders:
  1. He sent them as the Father sent Jesus, v.21
  2. The apostles received the Holy Spirit (v.22) in order to become His ministers, since
  3. the apostles received the power to forgive sins, v.23.
The outpouring of the Holy Spirit during the Pentecost is seen by the Church as similar to the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during every Catholic Confirmation. But Pentecost is also the “baptism by Fire” which was prophesized by John the Baptist (Jn 1:33-34).

Though, I liked the previous explanation even more since it is consistent with the Sacraments and their special roles in the Economy of Salvation.
 
I find this explanation very interesting. Pentecostals have also made a distinction between the two works of the Spirit in John 20 and Acts 2. Like Catholics they see the breathing of the Holy Spirit in John 20 as relating to regeneration or rebirth. As Pentecostals tend not to believe in Sacraments they do not view rebirth as something intrinsic to water baptisim but the essence of what rebirth is, is otherwise the same. In Acts 2 Pentecostals see this work of the Spirit as what would be called the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (as distinct from water baptism and regeneration), or as some have already noted the fulfillment of what John the Baptist said that “he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.” People have compared conversion/repentance/coming to faith in Christ in relationship to the Sacrament of Baptism; for instance, I believe the late Pope John Paul II taught that many Catholics were sacramentally Christian but many were still in need of that conversion experience which is more historically called metanoia. This is just speculation but I wonder if Spirit baptism (as practiced by Pentecostals and Charismatic Catholics) could be related to the Sacrament of Confirmation in a similar way?
 
Periannath said:
I find this explanation very interesting. Pentecostals have also made a distinction between the two works of the Spirit in John 20 and Acts 2. Like Catholics they see the breathing of the Holy Spirit in John 20 as relating to regeneration or rebirth. As Pentecostals tend not to believe in Sacraments they do not view rebirth as something intrinsic to water baptisim but the essence of what rebirth is, is otherwise the same. In Acts 2 Pentecostals see this work of the Spirit as what would be called the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (as distinct from water baptism and regeneration), or as some have already noted the fulfillment of what John the Baptist said that “he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.” People have compared conversion/repentance/coming to faith in Christ in relationship to the Sacrament of Baptism; for instance, I believe the late Pope John Paul II taught that many Catholics were sacramentally Christian but many were still in need of that conversion experience which is more historically called metanoia. This is just speculation but …
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Indeed it is interesting. 👍
I wonder if Spirit baptism (as practiced by Pentecostals and Charismatic Catholics) could be related to the Sacrament of Confirmation in a similar way?
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I don’t know about “Spirit baptism” as practiced by Pentecostals and Charismatic Catholics(?!). First, Catholics don’t practice such “Spirit baptism” other than the Sacrament of Baptism. Hence, even charismatic Catholics, i believe, don’t practice such “Spirit baptism” per se. As for Pentecostals, if they do have it, it could be related to the Sacrament of Confirmation IF such “baptism” is and can only be done once for every faithful.

On the other hand, IF such “Spirit baptism” in Pentecostalism can be done over and over on the same person, it does not correspond to the Sacrament of Confirmation. I believe the Sacrament of Confirmation, just as any valid sacrament, infuses grace only at the moment they are received. However, the Holy Spirit can act continuously in a person to increase that graces by burst or by small increment (however He wills it) either as the person prays, meditates, or does other Christian works all for the love of God.

I still have to find somebody from the Pentecostals to confirm which case is about such “Spirit baptism.” For Catholics, there is only one Baptism and that is through the Sacrament of Baptism. The Sacrament of Confirmation is a confirmation of the growth in spirit after being born during baptism. The Catholic theology just makes a more coherent sense to me. 😉
 
Originally Posted by Periannath
I wonder if Spirit baptism (as practiced by Pentecostals and Charismatic Catholics) could be related to the Sacrament of Confirmation in a similar way?
Click to expand...
Catholic charismatics don’t practice “Spirit Baptism” as rightly stated above by Geekborj.

Being confirmed and being a charismatic are two different things.

It is not essential for Catholics to join a charismatic group neither can one say that charismatics are better Catholics. Also, there is no need for a minister of the church to be present at a charismatic group meeting.
However it is obligatory for Catholics, especially those who have reached the age of reason, to receive the sacrament of confirmation and its celebration is ordinarily reserved to the bishop.

Some of the charismatic gifts are gifts of healing, prophecy, discernment of spirits, speaking in tongues, which are given only to those whom God chooses to give. These are totally different from those received at confirmation (mentioned in my post above), which are given to all who have received the sacrament of confirmation.

From the Compendium to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
160. What are Charisms? Charisms are special gifts of the Holy Spirit which are bestowed on individuals for the good of others, the needs of the world, and in particular for the building up of the Church. The discernment of charisms is the responsibility of the Magisterium.

Since every alleged charism may not be authentic, those who claim to have such a gift have to submit to the Church to discern if the gift is real or not.

From the CCC:
*799 Whether extraordinary or simple and humble, charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefit the Church, ordered as they are to her building up, to the good of men, and to the needs of the world.

**800 **Charisms are to be accepted with gratitude by the person who receives them and by all members of the Church as well. They are a wonderfully rich grace for the apostolic vitality and for the holiness of the entire Body of Christ, provided they really are genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit and are used in full conformity with authentic promptings of this same Spirit, that is, in keeping with charity, the true measure of all charisms.

801 It is in this sense that discernment of charisms is always necessary. No charism is exempt from being referred and submitted to the Church’s shepherds. “Their office (is) not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to what is good,” so that all the diverse and complementary charisms work together “for the common good.”*
 
geekborj said:
Indeed it is interesting. 👍

I don’t know about “Spirit baptism” as practiced by Pentecostals and Charismatic Catholics(?!). First, Catholics don’t practice such “Spirit baptism” other than the Sacrament of Baptism. Hence, even charismatic Catholics, i believe, don’t practice such “Spirit baptism” per se. As for Pentecostals, if they do have it, it could be related to the Sacrament of Confirmation IF such “baptism” is and can only be done once for every faithful.

On the other hand, IF such “Spirit baptism” in Pentecostalism can be done over and over on the same person, it does not correspond to the Sacrament of Confirmation. I believe the Sacrament of Confirmation, just as any valid sacrament, infuses grace only at the moment they are received. However, the Holy Spirit can act continuously in a person to increase that graces by burst or by small increment (however He wills it) either as the person prays, meditates, or does other Christian works all for the love of God.

I still have to find somebody from the Pentecostals to confirm which case is about such “Spirit baptism.” For Catholics, there is only one Baptism and that is through the Sacrament of Baptism. The Sacrament of Confirmation is a confirmation of the growth in spirit after being born during baptism. The Catholic theology just makes a more coherent sense to me. 😉
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Spirit Baptisim should not be thought of as something akin to how the Catholic Church understands water baptisim. Pentecostals see regeneration as the point where the Spirit indwells a person, not Spirit Baptisim. Like Confirmation, Spirit Baptisim is a one time work of the Holy Spirit that further releases his power into the believers life. Afterwards one should continually be filled (or re-filled) with the Holy Spirit but this is not the same as Batptism in the Holy Spirit. A distinction can be seen from what is called Spirit Baptisim and water baptisim in the book of Acts:

“For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 1:5, NIV)

“When they arrived, they prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit, because the Holy Spirit had not yet come upon any of them; they had **simply **been baptized into the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.” (Acts 8:15-17, NIV emphasis added)

"While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message. The circumcised believers who had come with Peter were astonished that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles. For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter said, “Can anyone keep these people from being baptized with water? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.” So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked Peter to stay with them for a few days." (Acts 10:44-48, NIV emphasis added)

If you study through the Acts of the Apostles you will notice that speaking in tounges is the sign that always accompanies the innital filling with the Holy Spirit from Pentecost right on through.

Furthermore, the Baptisim of the Holy Spirit is for all believers as is promised by the Father (Acts 1:4) and as Peter explains (Acts 2:17; 39).
 
Regina0206 said:
Catholic charismatics don’t practice “Spirit Baptism” as rightly stated above by Geekborj.

Being confirmed and being a charismatic are two different things.

It is not essential for Catholics to join a charismatic group neither can one say that charismatics are better Catholics. Also, there is no need for a minister of the church to be present at a charismatic group meeting.
However it is obligatory for Catholics, especially those who have reached the age of reason, to receive the sacrament of confirmation and its celebration is ordinarily reserved to the bishop.

Some of the charismatic gifts are gifts of healing, prophecy, discernment of spirits, speaking in tongues, which are given only to those whom God chooses to give. These are totally different from those received at confirmation (mentioned in my post above), which are given to all who have received the sacrament of confirmation.

From the Compendium to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
160. What are Charisms? Charisms are special gifts of the Holy Spirit which are bestowed on individuals for the good of others, the needs of the world, and in particular for the building up of the Church. The discernment of charisms is the responsibility of the Magisterium.

Since every alleged charism may not be authentic, those who claim to have such a gift have to submit to the Church to discern if the gift is real or not.

From the CCC:
799 Whether extraordinary or simple and humble, charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefit the Church, ordered as they are to her building up, to the good of men, and to the needs of the world.

**800 **Charisms are to be accepted with gratitude by the person who receives them and by all members of the Church as well. They are a wonderfully rich grace for the apostolic vitality and for the holiness of the entire Body of Christ, provided they really are genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit and are used in full conformity with authentic promptings of this same Spirit, that is, in keeping with charity, the true measure of all charisms.

801 It is in this sense that discernment of charisms is always necessary. No charism is exempt from being referred and submitted to the Church’s shepherds. “Their office (is) not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to what is good,” so that all the diverse and complementary charisms work together “for the common good.”
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Many Catholic Charismatics I have met and read talk about Spirit Baptisim. My last post should clarify confusion between Spirit Baptisim and Water Baptisim. The baptizer of Spirit Baptisim is Jesus and it is not a ceramony or ritual like water baptisim might be understood. I don’t think “charismatic” Christians in general are better Christians than non-Charismatic but I don’t understand why one would not want it (just as I would not understand why a sacramentaly Christian, Christian would not want a metanoia or a Catholic would not want the Sacrament of Confirmation).
 
suggested reading: “As by a New Pentcost” The Dramatic Beginning of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal by Patti Gallagher Mansfield -
I was recently reccomended this book by local priest after inquiring about baptism of the Holy Spirit. Something i was challengend to by members of ecunemical mens group.

The testimonies are of an overwhelming knowledge of God’s love, “as though they had too much new wine” .
I experiences something miraculous like this about 5 years ago but pretty sure it was not baptism by the Holy Spirit… but want very much to have again.
I have to admit that i pray hard that my desire it to have the gifts for His glory and not my own.
 
JP_Francis said:
suggested reading: “As by a New Pentcost” The Dramatic Beginning of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal by Patti Gallagher Mansfield -
I was recently reccomended this book by local priest after inquiring about baptism of the Holy Spirit. Something i was challengend to by members of ecunemical mens group.

The testimonies are of an overwhelming knowledge of God’s love, “as though they had too much new wine” .
I experiences something miraculous like this about 5 years ago but pretty sure it was not baptism by the Holy Spirit… but want very much to have again.
I have to admit that i pray hard that my desire it to have the gifts for His glory and not my own.
Click to expand...
When seeking the baptism of the Holy Spirit many say seek the baptizer (Jesus) and not the baptism. Out of the desire for more of God, he will give you more of himself even in this way. It is also helpful to believe and know that speaking in tounges is the sign that lets us know we are baptized in the Holy Spirit. The speaking in tounges that happens with Spirit baptisim is in essence the same to the gift of speaking in tounges but not in function. Many charismatics equate this type as your personal prayer language (and everyone has one available) whereas the gift of toungs, which is not for everyone, is for public use; i.e. in the assembly, in meetings with others.
 
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