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dronald
Guest
Are you willing to accept then that your perspective could be wrong, considering that you have absolutely no idea what the true story is of the early Disciples of Jesus based on history?I don’t know. As I said in my initial post, I don’t know much about this kind of history. I’m open to learning about the Catholic Church’s perspective, though. That’s why I came to this site to begin with.
Or would you say that because the Qur’an must be correct, then any history that claims Peter was meant to build a Church for Jesus must be false, under all circumstances; no matter what?
I’m glad that you’re not asserting that, because I think you’re logical enough to know how wrong it would be to ignore all history. We certainly know that guys like Peter, John, James, Jude, Paul, etc planted Church’s and we know guys like Irenaeus, Polycarp, Ignatius, Clement, etc succeeded them.I personally don’t believe that Paul had any meaningful relationship with guys like Peter and James. Paul says in Galatians that he met them-- and I believe him, but that’s as far as I’d go. Paul’s gospel was and is a gross corruption, as far as I’m concerned.
Well, Paul and Peter might’ve met, but yes, I think that they had no relationship (I’m not asserting that, though).
No matter what one wants to believe about Jesus, they must believe that Peter, James, John, etc believed Jesus died and rose again. The earliest Church’s knew this and believed this and yet you deny it.
However, I wouldn’t say it’s your fault because as you say; you have not really had a chance to study the history of the Early Church, and that’s why you’re here. I believe that’s certainly a step in the right direction as long as you don’t insist on denying everything that is contradictory to the Qur’an under any circumstances; because that I believe would be a waste of time for you and intellectually dishonest.
I have thought about quoting passage after passage about the abuse Paul gave, and then the abuse he was given after conversion. How in both The Acts and in Paul’s letters he proves this, and then sends letters, as well as other Apostles of Jesus to other Church’s all confirming His death, resurrection and ascension. How the Apostles had nothing to gain by proving that Jesus Christ died and rose again, other than eternal Salvation; but it’s hard when I’m not sure where you’re at.
I didn’t think originally it would make sense to write an essay for you, but then I think of other Muslims who may stumble about here one day and have an open mind to such beliefs. That’s not to say that you don’t have an open mind, I just have not seen that yet.
Hm, I once made a thread about him because I know of some of the hateful things he would say; which if Muslims were to be influenced by him now would be bad news. No Muslims were around to reply though so it died.Of course I want his writings influencing muslims, but also people who are interested in knowing about Islam (and indeed, he does. His tafseer is, to this day, one of the most trustworthy and influential). Being that surah 4:157 is talking about the jews who thought that they killed Jesus [peace be upon him], I have no problem with Ibn Kathir [may Allah have mercy on him] wanting Allah’s curse to be brought upon those jews. I don’t have his tafseer because it’s huge and expensive, but, insha Allah, one day I will have it.
Wanting to kill a prophet is already bad enough, and the jews have a long history of murdering their own prophets, but actually bragging about what they thought they did, that’s almost unspeakably evil. Is there any level of Hell low enough for that?