The Disconnect with the Rubrics in America

  • Thread starter Thread starter MusicMan
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

MusicMan

Guest
A few weeks ago, I was listening to the financial news, and CNBC’s Maria Bartiromo was explaining the changes that the Italians wanted to make to their banking laws… they planned to make everything legal that could be made legal. She went on to explain that in Europe, financial law is a list of things you can do. Anything not expressly allowed was forbidden. In the US, financial laws are a list of things you cannot do. Anything not expressly forbidden is allowed.

Is this a cultural disconnect between Europe and the US?

As a legal document, the GIRM is a list of what you do at Mass. It is not a list of prohibitions, and as we’ve said many times, because it is a “to-do” list, we should not assume that if something isn’t forbidden by the GIRM that it is OK (like the ubiquitous clown Mass).

As problems have come up, innovations, and so forth, Rome has issued lists of prohibitions, like Redemptoris Sacramentum, but this has been in response to US “allowances” that really weren’t to be allowed in the first place.

Does this make sense, or am I way off here?
 
Wow, when you elucidate, though succinctly, using the Italian financial charters, it certainly does sound like one to me.
 
A few weeks ago, I was listening to the financial news, and CNBC’s Maria Bartiromo was explaining the changes that the Italians wanted to make to their banking laws… they planned to make everything legal that could be made legal. She went on to explain that in Europe, financial law is a list of things you can do. Anything not expressly allowed was forbidden. In the US, financial laws are a list of things you cannot do. Anything not expressly forbidden is allowed.

Is this a cultural disconnect between Europe and the US?
Yes. Traditionally, the US embraces God given freedom as the default position, adding necessary restrictions/laws when things come up. According to the explanation you shared, the European model is one where the government gives you freedom in doses. The default position is “ask for permission” from some secular power.
 
A few weeks ago, I was listening to the financial news, and CNBC’s Maria Bartiromo was explaining the changes that the Italians wanted to make to their banking laws… they planned to make everything legal that could be made legal. She went on to explain that in Europe, financial law is a list of things you can do. Anything not expressly allowed was forbidden. In the US, financial laws are a list of things you cannot do. Anything not expressly forbidden is allowed.

Is this a cultural disconnect between Europe and the US?

As a legal document, the GIRM is a list of what you do at Mass. It is not a list of prohibitions, and as we’ve said many times, because it is a “to-do” list, we should not assume that if something isn’t forbidden by the GIRM that it is OK **(like the ubiquitous clown Mass). **

As problems have come up, innovations, and so forth, Rome has issued lists of prohibitions, like Redemptoris Sacramentum, but this has been in response to US “allowances” that really weren’t to be allowed in the first place.

Does this make sense, or am I way off here?
I know what you’re trying to say, but last I checked, “ubiquitous” meant “found everywhere.” From what I can tell, the “clown Mass” lives on as an endlessly-repeated and constantly-referenced YouTube video. I don’t think an appeal to a supposedly at-all-times-and-everywhere “clown Mass” is really your best example.
 
Several days ago I came across a very interesting item in the January 1900 issue of the American Ecclesiastical Review, a very influential priestly journal in this country for many years. I almost started a thread about it, but didn’t get around to it. This is from the journal’s regular question-and-answer section, so the answer represents, I suppose, the editorial judgment of the Review. It think it is quite apropos in discussing the issue raised here and will reward being printed in full (bracketed translations are mine):

THE ORGAN AT MASS.

Qu. Some months ago the Ecclesiastical Review published a statement that the organ may not accompany the celebrant during the singing of the Preface and the Pater Noster. But, as I am informed, the Caeremoniale Episcoporum says that the organ may be played, not only at the Preface, but even during the Consecration, dulci modo; and that this is confirmed by the practice in the churches of Rome. What do you answer?

My organist accompanied me formerly. Since I saw the decree in the Review, I have not allowed the organ accompaniment during the Preface, etc. Please let me know whether or not the law is of strict interpretation and binding?

Resp. The statement in the Review was a decree of the Sacred Congregation of Rites, which answered the question whether or not the organ might be played during the singing of the Preface and the Pater Noster in the Missa cantata. The decree referred the inquirer to the general law laid down in the liturgical books of the Church, namely, “Observandum est Caeremoniale Episcoporum.” “the Ceremonial of Bishops is to be observed.”]

The Caeremoniale Episcoporum nowhere states that the organ may be played at the Preface and the Pater Noster; nor does it expressly forbid it. It simply specifies all the parts of the Mass at which the organ should be played, and also the parts when, as during the Elevation, it might be played. This is the norm for the perfect observance of the liturgical laws; and the Church does not permit these laws to become a dead letter, nor does she sanction their neglect by any expression of approval where a deviation from the norm is brought to her notice. When questioned, therefore, about the lawfulness of a deviation by any individual member of the Church, she ordinarily and practically answers: You have the law; if what you propose were the right thing to do, the law would tell you; for the liturgical rubrics are directive in all necessary details.

It follows then that a decision, such as we have in the present case, refers the inquirer to the terms of the law, which was, of course, made to be observed. The decision does not assume that the inquirer wants the Church to say what she might tolerate if there were good reason. If she said so, except in rare cases, her general legislation would soon give place to a tissue of exceptional applications of the law under the pressure of scrupulous or wrong-headed inquirers. The Church is much more tolerant than the many detailed decrees which constantly issue from the Congregations would make it appear. But if people ask needless questions, they are apt to get strong answers; for they have no right to expect the Church to make little of her laws because some individual finds it inconvenient to follow them under all circumstances. Confessors and spiritual directors have much the same experience with inquiring penitents, and they know how impossible it is to meet every problem of a nervous subject.

Now, it is a general rule in liturgical matters — and it is well to remember it before asking any questions in Rome — that the prescriptions of the ritual books are to be observed as they stand, “non autem rigorose, sed spectata decenti consuetudine.” “not, however, rigorously, but observing decent custom.”] It is true that consuetudo or custom, if contrary to the rubrics, is to be abolished — “sed prudenter;” “but prudently”;] but a custom not contrary to the rubrics, although not wholly or expressly conformable to the same, may be tolerated. In such cases, however, we cannot expect Rome to discredit the general law by paying the individual claiming the right to this toleration the compliment of advertising it by a general decree, which many persons would forthwith construe into an abrogation or change of the standing rubrics.

Thus it is easily explained why the helpful and soft accompaniment of the organ is, in Rome or elsewhere, tolerated, since the Caeremoniale Episcoporum does not forbid, although it does not expressly permit it.
How does that strike you as a traditional view of how Church regulations ought to be observed?
 
How does that strike you as a traditional view of how Church regulations ought to be observed?
Wow, that is a fascinating assessment of our obligation toward rubrics. Is there any reason to think this approach does or does not represent an appropriate course today?

Also, does the article give a reference for “non autem rigorose, sed spectata decenti consuetudine”? I was unable to find it in a search.
 
A few weeks ago, I was listening to the financial news, and CNBC’s Maria Bartiromo was explaining the changes that the Italians wanted to make to their banking laws… they planned to make everything legal that could be made legal. She went on to explain that in Europe, financial law is a list of things you can do. Anything not expressly allowed was forbidden. In the US, financial laws are a list of things you cannot do. Anything not expressly forbidden is allowed.

Is this a cultural disconnect between Europe and the US?

As a legal document, the GIRM is a list of what you do at Mass. It is not a list of prohibitions, and as we’ve said many times, because it is a “to-do” list, we should not assume that if something isn’t forbidden by the GIRM that it is OK (like the ubiquitous clown Mass).

As problems have come up, innovations, and so forth, Rome has issued lists of prohibitions, like Redemptoris Sacramentum, but this has been in response to US “allowances” that really weren’t to be allowed in the first place.

Does this make sense, or am I way off here?
I’m going to assume this was the thread you were talking about in my thread. I’m kind of getting you. Can you try to restate your position with different terms?
 
A few weeks ago, I was listening to the financial news, and CNBC’s Maria Bartiromo was explaining the changes that the Italians wanted to make to their banking laws… they planned to make everything legal that could be made legal. She went on to explain that in Europe, financial law is a list of things you can do. Anything not expressly allowed was forbidden. In the US, financial laws are a list of things you cannot do. Anything not expressly forbidden is allowed.

Is this a cultural disconnect between Europe and the US?

As a legal document, the GIRM is a list of what you do at Mass. It is not a list of prohibitions, and as we’ve said many times, because it is a “to-do” list, we should not assume that if something isn’t forbidden by the GIRM that it is OK (like the ubiquitous clown Mass).

As problems have come up, innovations, and so forth, Rome has issued lists of prohibitions, like Redemptoris Sacramentum, but this has been in response to US “allowances” that really weren’t to be allowed in the first place.

Does this make sense, or am I way off here?
*** B A N G ! ! ! *** Your right on target ! It’s time the Church police the Parishes to see If they are doing things according to the Roman Missal. We have had a free for all in our parishes much too long. What is wrong with doing things properly?
 
Wow, that is a fascinating assessment of our obligation toward rubrics. Is there any reason to think this approach does or does not represent an appropriate course today?
It strikes me as still applicable. We see this, for instance, when one person complains that the orans isn’t in the rubrics, and another person says, “Oh yeah, well, getting up and taking a crying baby to the back isn’t in the rubrics either; is that prohibited too then?” The first person then shoots back, “So if the orans is allowed, then is doing cartwheels or tossing a beach ball allowed too?” Rubrics do not cover everything in the world, nor are they intended to. They are supposed to be observed in good faith, with good taste and good intentions. Some thing are clearly within those parameters (removing a crying baby), some things are clearly not (cartwheels), and for the rest there may be rooms for legitimate disagreement and discussion between reasonable people. If Rome perceives there to be a problem and desires uniformity then they will legislate.
Also, does the article give a reference for “non autem rigorose, sed spectata decenti consuetudine”? I was unable to find it in a search.
No it doesn’t. It either comes from a source that hasn’t been scanned by Google, or is the Review’s synthesis or paraphrase of the law.
 
A few weeks ago, I was listening to the financial news, and CNBC’s Maria Bartiromo was explaining the changes that the Italians wanted to make to their banking laws… they planned to make everything legal that could be made legal. She went on to explain that in Europe, financial law is a list of things you can do. Anything not expressly allowed was forbidden. In the US, financial laws are a list of things you cannot do. Anything not expressly forbidden is allowed.

Is this a cultural disconnect between Europe and the US? …
This is the first time I have heard that said of Italian laws; maybe it applies only to finance.

The old rule was:

In Germany - all that is not permitted it forbidden.

In France - all that is not forbidden is permitted

In Russia - even that which is permitted is forbidden

In Italy - even that which is forbidden is permitted. [Having driven in Italy I tend to believe that. ]

To get serious, the Judicial Vicar for our diocese told me years ago that Italian law only lists what is forbidden, all else is permitted [within the limits of common sense.] He stated that it is the same with Canon Law.
 
It strikes me as still applicable… Rubrics do not cover everything in the world, nor are they intended to. They are supposed to be observed in good faith, with good taste and good intentions…If Rome perceives there to be a problem and desires uniformity then they will legislate.
I guess I was wondering whether there has been a tendency for much more to be codified (so we presumably don’t have as much leeway in interpreting and applying rubrics), or if overall the situation is roughly the same as a century ago.
 
That’s the thing–we weren’t mean to ever have the kind of leeway and “open to interpretation” that has occurred in the last 50 years. The problem, as I see it, is that the “rules” were legislated in a way that Italians (or more largely, Europeans) understand, but not in a way that Americans understand.

Because the GIRM doesn’t forbid the laity from praying the Lord’s Prayer in the orans position, they feel they have the leeway to do so. That’s the wrong understanding of the rulebook. Rather, because the GIRM does not permit the laity from praying the Lord’s prayer in the orans, they should not place their hands in that position. The same is true for everything from emsHC purifying the sacred vessels to holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer to the priest riding in on an elephant (at the ubiquitous clown Mass – and I say ubiquitous, because it’s always mentioned on threads like this and readily available on YouTube).

Either we Americans need to realize that the rulebook was not written within our culture and adapt our understanding, or Rome needs to rewrite the rulebook in accordance with our cultural understanding. Priests should be trained that the GIRM says what you should and may do, and if it is not listed it is forbidden. That’s a big paradigm shift from the ways Americans are taught to think about rules and regulations.
 
I guess I was wondering whether there has been a tendency for much more to be codified (so we presumably don’t have as much leeway in interpreting and applying rubrics), or if overall the situation is roughly the same as a century ago.
Hmm, I couldn’t really say. Some things are more defined – in the rubrics of the old missal, for instance, the congregation is essentially not mentioned in any way whatsoever, while now it is treated heavily. But by and large I think the intent with the new missal was to loosen up on a lot of things: we no longer have rubrics about where the priest’s eyes should be looking, whether the deacon turns around by rotating clockwise or counterclockwise, and so on and so forth.
That’s the thing–we weren’t mean to ever have the kind of leeway and “open to interpretation” that has occurred in the last 50 years. The problem, as I see it, is that the “rules” were legislated in a way that Italians (or more largely, Europeans) understand, but not in a way that Americans understand.

Because the GIRM doesn’t forbid the laity from praying the Lord’s Prayer in the orans position, they feel they have the leeway to do so. That’s the wrong understanding of the rulebook. Rather, because the GIRM does not permit the laity from praying the Lord’s prayer in the orans, they should not place their hands in that position. The same is true for everything from emsHC purifying the sacred vessels to holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer to the priest riding in on an elephant (at the ubiquitous clown Mass – and I say ubiquitous, because it’s always mentioned on threads like this and readily available on YouTube).

Either we Americans need to realize that the rulebook was not written within our culture and adapt our understanding, or Rome needs to rewrite the rulebook in accordance with our cultural understanding. Priests should be trained that the GIRM says what you should and may do, and if it is not listed it is forbidden. That’s a big paradigm shift from the ways Americans are taught to think about rules and regulations.
No, I disagree with your premise. In fact, your very problem is approaching these questions with a, let’s call it, American approach: a binary mindset. To you, it’s either X is allowed and all else forbidden, or X is forbidden and all else allowed.

In reality, the Church’s approach is much more graded across the spectrum. In American law, we have essentially two options about anything: forbidden, or permitted. In Roman law, we’ll see that while thing A might be “an absolute abomination,” perhaps thing B is “altogether forbidden,” thing C is “reprobated,” thing D is “forbidden,” thing E “is not to be done,” thing F “should not be done,” and thing G “should be eliminated whenever possible,” and so on. This is a completely different way or writing law than we’re used to – it is law written for grownups who generally have good formation and good intentions. An American couldn’t even conceive of a statute being written that prescribed, “No one should drive faster than 45 mph on Hickory Blvd., tailgating is reprobated, and strenuous efforts ought to be made to stop at every traffic signal.”
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top