The disorder of homosexuality

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Well that’s a mixed set of statements. It says the genesis of homosexuality is unexplained. So what? You know the genesis of most behaviors is unexplained. One doesn’t need to understand what causes a behavior to make a judgement about whether or not it is appropriate in the context of a church, organization, family etc. To claim that we cannot considered homosexuality as disordered unless we understand how same sex attraction occurs is to demand an unreachable standard.

As to the canard of why are we debating this issue instead of helping the poor and the sick, quite honestly I’d LOVE to not deal with, think about or debate homosexuality. I really don’t care what you do in bed. I do care if homosexuals insist that we must not only acknowledge but affirm what should be their private lives. I don’t think five year olds need to be told about homosexuals. I don’t think a Priest should be forced to marry two homosexuals. I don’t think a photographer should be forced to photograph a homoexual wedding if he/she does not want to.

IOW I think everyone’s sex life is their business. To use an old term, I think everyone’s sex life should be “in the closet” and not fodder for public discourse. Too bad so many homosexual activists think otherwise.

Lisa
Interesting…if you search the CCC (and I have), the word “unexplained” only appears this one time and in this one context. It does not appear with regard to any other human “behavior”. I doubt it is truly an unreachable standard to seek answers for our brothers and sisters who recognize same sex attraction within themselves and who they are…
 
A distinction is drawn, and it seems with some reason, between homosexuals whose tendency comes from a false education, from a lack of normal sexual development, from habit, from bad example, or from other similar causes, and is transitory or at least not incurable; and homosexuals who are definitively such because of some kind of innate instinct or a pathological constitution judged to be incurable.

PERSONA HUMANA
 
Interesting…if you search the CCC (and I have), the word “unexplained” only appears this one time and in this one context. It does not appear with regard to any other human “behavior”. I doubt it is truly an unreachable standard to seek answers for our brothers and sisters who recognize same sex attraction within themselves and who they are…
Tsk,

The gay community is trying to change the perspective on homosexual behavior everywhere. The UN is faced with homosexuals that want to change the status of laws in 76 countries where homosexuality is a crime. I agree with this. Making homosexuality a crime should be addressed. Every Country should have laws that decriminalize homosexuality. This approach of rallying to cause governments will work in the secular world however will fail in the Kingdom. Did you not know that the Church and those that are faithful to the Church recognize and realize that the OHCAC is the Kingdom on God on earth.

You are preaching to the wrong people here. Even if you convinced everyone on this thread that you were correct…hey dude…we are in a Kingdom…that is the OHCAC. The Church is the Bride of Christ. Christ is the head of the Church…so knowing that you need to take this issue to the King…
 
Tsk,

The gay community is trying to change the perspective on homosexual behavior everywhere. The UN is faced with homosexuals that want to change the status of laws in 76 countries where homosexuality is a crime. I agree with this. Making homosexuality a crime should be addressed. Every Country should have laws that decriminalize homosexuality. This approach of rallying to cause governments will work in the secular world however will fail in the Kingdom. Did you not know that the Church and those that are faithful to the Church recognize and realize that the OHCAC is the Kingdom on God on earth.

You are preaching to the wrong people here. Even if you convinced everyone on this thread that you were correct…hey dude…we are in a Kingdom…that is the OHCAC. The Church is the Bride of Christ. Christ is the head of the Church…so knowing that you need to take this issue to the King…
Agreed, the mystical body of Christ is the Kingdom of God on earth and that includes all peoples. I really have no interest in being correct. It is far better to be real than to be right.
 
Agreed, the mystical body of Christ is the Kingdom of God on earth and that includes all peoples. I really have no interest in being correct.
Tsk,

In reading all of your postings, yes I went to your statistics and read all your posts, and in reading what you write I suggest that this is your problem. I say this with the utmost thought for your welfare.

When I was young I thought I was correct about everything and my parents were wrong. As I matured I came to find certain difficulties and fortunately the one thing I could always count on was this. Whenever I had a question, whenever I had a problem I could find an answer in the OHCAC writings. I don’t see you doing that. You point to the one place where “unexplained” is used. If you read the Catechism, if you read the writings of the Church…and this is your sticking point then you have missed all the good stuff.

I suggest you take an interest in being correct and not by yourself. I have suggested, Fix has suggested…Veritatis Splendor…this is a beautiful document…if you can read this, digest this, contemplate on this then the unexplained will be explained…👍
 
Ringil,

I have no respect for the APA. The APA took a military manual and turned it into a diganosis by committee farce. Homosexuality was a disease and now not a disease as per the DSM and this was due to pressure from Homosexuals and with the help of Homoexual Psychiatrists.

You point out that it codes for addiction and relate the coding to insurance companies. The issue with acceptance of an organization voting that something is a disease then not a disease is downright nuts.

Consider the DSM and alcoholism since you bring up addiction. Alcholism is not, never was and never will be a disease. This same APA that says Homosexuality is a disease now says it is not. This same organization says alcoholism is a disease that is not and yet you say is a standard. This causes those that accept alcoholism is a disease to automatically accept 12 step/AA treatment that is not treatment but brain washing.

Just take a look at a reputable organization like St Jude as it regards their contrary opinions on alcoholism…

soberforever.net/varb.cfm?utm_expid=5865369-0&utm_referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dogpile.com%2Fsearch%2Fweb%3Ffcoid%3D417%26fcop%3Dtopnav%26fpid%3D27%26q%3Dst%2Bjude%2Baddiction%26ql%3D

Listen to the video at this same site and review the literature on this site…

soberforever.net/the-retreat-house-video.cfm

Couple that with a PhD that champions the same notion…

peele.net/

I find the APA to be incredible and filled with nonsense when it comes to using a book that unfortunately is geared towards insurance reimbursement and pleasing some than it is based in reality.

The APA to me has lost all credibility BTW…🙂
The DSM identifies alcohol abuse and alcohol dependence. “Alcoholism” is not an identified medical term, though many medical and addictions professionals find use for the term as it is commonly understood. I can party agree with your statement regarding Addictions and the desease model. But that’s another matter entirely. I’m not really aware that the APA, as a whole, advances the desease model. It is certainly possible for licensed professionals to practice not using this paradigm and quite a few do.

The same is not true regarding clinical issues related to attempts to “change” or “alter” homosexuality.

But what can I say if you give credance to NARTH and not the APA? I guess we simply have very different opinions on this matter. 🤷
 
The DSM identifies alcohol abuse and alcohol dependence. “Alcoholism” is not an identified medical term, though many medical and addictions professionals find use for the term as it is commonly understood. I can party agree with your statement regarding Addictions and the desease model. But that’s another matter entirely. I’m not really aware that the APA, as a whole, advances the desease model. It is certainly possible for licensed professionals to practice not using this paradigm and quite a few do.

The same is not true regarding clinical issues related to attempts to “change” or “alter” homosexuality.

But what can I say if you give credance to NARTH and not the APA? I guess we simply have very different opinions on this matter. 🤷
Ringil,

You have infered by my posting Narth that I give credence to Narth. A posting is a posting. I give credence to facts. I give credence to reality. The APA as far as I know accepts the disease model. I suggest you do some research to prove me wrong.

If practitioners do not use the paradigm for the disease model then practitioners can choose to ignore the absence of homosexuality…the entire process is dependent on insurance reimbursement and not best practice, in my opinion. If a therapists believes that a homosexual is mentally ill it is easy enough to slap “situtational depression” or some other label on the patient and continue therapy for reimbursement…
 
Tsk,

In reading all of your postings, yes I went to your statistics and read all your posts, and in reading what you write I suggest that this is your problem. I say this with the utmost thought for your welfare.

When I was young I thought I was correct about everything and my parents were wrong. As I matured I came to find certain difficulties and fortunately the one thing I could always count on was this. Whenever I had a question, whenever I had a problem I could find an answer in the OHCAC writings. I don’t see you doing that. You point to the one place where “unexplained” is used. If you read the Catechism, if you read the writings of the Church…and this is your sticking point then you have missed all the good stuff.

I suggest you take an interest in being correct and not by yourself. I have suggested, Fix has suggested…Veritatis Splendor…this is a beautiful document…if you can read this, digest this, contemplate on this then the unexplained will be explained…👍
Too often our ego has a need for certainty…for a stance toward righteousness. Yet Matthew’s Gospel clearly warns: “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.”

Faith truly is the opposite of certainty…it is living in the mystery of a Love that is oriented to the least of those among us not the powers and authorities that presume to hold “Truth” in their hands. When we attempt to impose our finite understanding of God or of truth on those around us we risk leading others astray as our point of view is always from our point, our experience, and our understanding. To suggest any individual (and hence any institution) is capable of holding the infinite in its entirety is perhaps the most diabolical of evils.
 
Too often our ego has a need for certainty…for a stance toward righteousness. Yet Matthew’s Gospel clearly warns: “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.”

Faith truly is the opposite of certainty…it is living in the mystery of a Love that is oriented to the least of those among us not the powers and authorities the presume to hold “Truth” in their hands. When we attempt to impose our finite understanding of God or of truth on those around us we risk leading others astray as our point of view is always from our point, our experience, and our understanding. To suggest any individual (and hence any institution) is capable of holding the infinite in its entirety is perhaps the most diabolical of evils.
So basically no one can know the Truth. The Church with the authority from Christ is wrong. Your explanation is, of course, the correct one? So who exactly is your authority?
 
So basically no one can know the Truth. The Church with the authority from Christ is wrong. Your explanation is, of course, the correct one? So who exactly is your authority?
As I’ve expressed previously the institutional Church is a fine authority when it points to a truth beyond itself…when it humbly recognizes that it, as the Buddhist’s say, is merely the hand that points to the moon, but it is not the moon itself.
 
As I’ve expressed previously the institutional Church is a fine authority when it points to a truth beyond itself…when it humbly recognizes that it, as the Buddhist’s say, is merely the hand that points to the moon, but it is not the moon itself.
But Christ said he who hears you hears Me? It cannot be much more clear, right?
 
Too often our ego has a need for certainty…for a stance toward righteousness. Yet Matthew’s Gospel clearly warns: “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.”

Faith truly is the opposite of certainty…it is living in the mystery of a Love that is oriented to the least of those among us not the powers and authorities that presume to hold “Truth” in their hands. When we attempt to impose our finite understanding of God or of truth on those around us we risk leading others astray as our point of view is always from our point, our experience, and our understanding. To suggest any individual (and hence any institution) is capable of holding the infinite in its entirety is perhaps the most diabolical of evils.
Tsk,

You have yet to answer me. You designate yourself as ECC. Is this Eastern Catholic Christian? While you formulate your answer I ask you to meditate on this…
Mystically it means we must also die to our “false self” so that we can awaken and rise up to our true self. The cycle of death and resurrection is evident in the cosmo’s, the changing of the seasons and in the rising and setting of the sun. Good religion helps us to die repeatedly BEFORE our physical death to our ego/illusions of self - as Jesus said, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me"…
This is your posting from Jesus Death and resurrection, post #7…👍
 
Too often our ego has a need for certainty…for a stance toward righteousness. Yet Matthew’s Gospel clearly warns: “Be careful not to practice your righteousness in front of others to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven.”

Faith truly is the opposite of certainty…it is living in the mystery of a Love that is oriented to the least of those among us not the powers and authorities that presume to hold “Truth” in their hands. When we attempt to impose our finite understanding of God or of truth on those around us we risk leading others astray as our point of view is always from our point, our experience, and our understanding. To suggest any individual (and hence any institution) is capable of holding the infinite in its entirety is perhaps the most diabolical of evils.
Tsk,

You say that ego stands in the way and that be wary of righteousness…I suggest you meditate on the following:
The Catholic church has recognized prophets and Saints for 2000 years. Mr. Smith does not stand among them. That any group could decide that he is a fulfillment of biblical prophecy without the endorsement of a wisdom tradition with more than 1B members is beyond me. The Spirit of truth is not dualistic.
Tsk How do mormons do it? post 446

If there is a spirit of truth, then there is as you say only one truth and that truth is as you say found in the OHCAC…the truth that will set you free is Veritiatis Splendor
 
Lisa,

You mean you want me to derail the thread. No way…:nope:
CopticChristian I am sorry if you thought this was to derail the thread. Since the theme is the “disorder” of homosexuality, the health and medical impact (negative) of homosexual activities is IMO relevant to the thread. Our bodies were made to for different functions and in using them properly for lack of a better term, we not only maximize the results but we maintain or improve our health.

One bit of evidence that homosexuality is disordered, abnormal, a pathology or whatever term you might wish to use, is that the RESULTS of homosexual activity are negative both physically and emotionally.

No matter how much homosexuals try to claim that their “love” is just as natural as man/woman marital sexual activities, our bodies demonstrate the lie.

Thank you for the other thoughtful posts.

Lisa
 
Tsk,

You say that ego stands in the way and that be wary of righteousness…I suggest you meditate on the following:

Tsk How do mormons do it? post 446

If there is a spirit of truth, then there is as you say only one truth and that truth is as you say found in the OHCAC…the truth that will set you free is Veritiatis Splendor
Your attempts to take so many to tsk are sadly lacking, as from them I would surmise that your understanding of Veritiatis Splendor is less than miniscule.
 
CopticChristian I am sorry if you thought this was to derail the thread. Since the theme is the “disorder” of homosexuality, the health and medical impact (negative) of homosexual activities is IMO relevant to the thread. Our bodies were made to for different functions and in using them properly for lack of a better term, we not only maximize the results but we maintain or improve our health.

One bit of evidence that homosexuality is disordered, abnormal, a pathology or whatever term you might wish to use, is that the RESULTS of homosexual activity are negative both physically and emotionally.

No matter how much homosexuals try to claim that their “love” is just as natural as man/woman marital sexual activities, our bodies demonstrate the lie.

Thank you for the other thoughtful posts.

Lisa
Lisa,

You did a yomans job of summarizing anything I would say…took the words right out of my mouth…🙂
 
The APA is reputable- almost the definition of reputable when it comes to recognized mental health treatment, NARTH is not and they have supported therapeutic approaches which research has shown to be emotionally damaging to clients. Licensed therapists providing reparative therapeutic efforts are practicing unethically and are subject to professional disciplinary action. As a licensed clinician (LCSW) I would be professionally and ethically obligated to report if I knew that a fellow licensed colleague were attempting such efforts with clients. This is fact.

The APA provides the diagnostic criterion used to code for mental illness, addictions, and developmental, cognitive, and personality disorders. The APA is really all there is when it comes to providing professionally recognized practice that is covered by health insurance agencies. Try to get coverage for “reparative therapy” and see what happens.

What kind of physician would look to NARTH as a valid source of clinical information??? I have certainly never met another licensed therapist who would.

If you support NARTH you can’t disagree that your views as a physician are in the tiny minority within the medical profession. Do you tell your colleagues this? If so, what are their reactions? I don’t really know what kind of doctor you are so. . . . In any case I would advise you take another look at NARTH. It is fringe and does not represent mainstream medical or therapeutic opinion.
Perhaps you can answer if the reputation of APA, that it is more ideology-driven than science-driven, is undeserved. As you know, the Association endorsed same sex ‘marriage’ and gay adoption.

I realize you need to make a living out of your chosen profession, and you rely on the APA to validate your professional license. Do you as a Catholic however not find its policies and ethical guidelines incompatible with Catholic teaching and values? You must know that APA is decidedly gay affirmative. It even directs its member mental health professionals to discount if not effectively dismiss the complaints of ego dystonic homosexual patients who seek management of their unwanted same sex attraction. Do you have an independent thought about this or do you simply support the party line? For instance, the Committee badmouths NARTH; do you feel you also have to badmouth NARTH? NARTH is a group of professionals that has taken an independent stand from the dominant Association (which by the way holds the advantage necessarily in peer reviewing and publication of studies). Small does not mean fringe. Nicolosi and company are not fringe. Dr. Richard Fitzgibbons is not fringe. They just don’t kowtow to the APA.

Since you brought up reparative therapy, or sex orientation change efforts (SOCE), can you provide the empirical evidence by APA or you that SOCE has actually harmed patients, and if so, in what way(s)? I realize that the pervading belief now but not before in your discipline is that homosexuality is a normal variant of sexuality and that there is no ex-gay in reality. Even if it is now known that the homosexual condition, homosexual experience and value systems are not the same across patients.

It appears that APA postured, in effect, to close the door to those who seek SOCE. What happens to those who genuinely seek it because of their value system, those with unwanted homosexuality? They deserve help or therapy, a right to self-directed treatment. If they approach a NARTH or NARTH referred mental health professional, you would align yourself with the naysayers, it would appear.

In this forum alone, there are members who have related or gave accounts that sexual orientation change is possible, or at least can leave the lived out homosexual life. I can not say how much therapy if or where undertaken contributed to the change. There are some that disagree or remain doubtful. It is clear in reading an array of accounts that success of SOCE is tied to setting objectives from the get go and the motivation factor.
Ringil,


If practitioners do not use the paradigm for the disease model then practitioners can choose to ignore the absence of homosexuality…the entire process is dependent on insurance reimbursement and not best practice, in my opinion. If a therapists believes that a homosexual is mentally ill it is easy enough to slap “situtational depression” or some other label on the patient and continue therapy for reimbursement…
Exactly. In a previous discussion I had with a forum member who said she was a graduate student in psychology, we went down a similar line of argument. I posited that the APA could have just shifted to using NOC, not otherwise classified, but perhaps diagnosing ‘situational depression’ would solve the insurance reimbursement problem after APA removed hiomosexuality as a mental illness in 1973. The APA decided to ride the train of homosexuality is not a mental disorder school of thought, brought about by pressure from homosexual psychiatrists and a vocal and demanding bloc of homosexual(ist)s.
,
 
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