The disorder of homosexuality

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chris62 said:
I heard a priest recently explain that homosexuality is a disorder, like drug addiction, and I agreed with him.
Some people fall into drug addiction because their make-up is such that just a little bit of some drug gets them hooked easily.
They have a propensity in their system to need more and more.
If they lived in a different culture they would not be a drug addict.
I think homosexuality is the same.
Some people may have a slight SSA, and in different cultures it may not rise into a problem. They may suppress that feeling and instead meet a woman and marry and have kids etc. and be perfectly happy.
But in today’s culture, they get hooked into the SSA lifestyle that many including the media tell them is OK, and that it is a natural thing that they are born with, and they get hooked into the homosexual lifestyle.
If the same person lived in a quiet pacific island somewhere, or at a different time in history, then they wouldn’t have a SSA.
Hence the influx of homosexuality at the moment in our particular culture.
I don’t think this applies to all homosexuals, but I think it would apply to many.
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I am convinced that it is a choice. I am not alone in this thought process. William Glasser, MD disavows the DSM and is author of Choice Theory and Reality Therapy. I don’t accept that alcohol is an addiction as is described as a disease and I am not alone here either. Stanton Peele disavows that alocholism is a disease.

It is possible to get addicted, it is possible to get unaddicted. The disease model based on 12 step thinking is tantamount to the Scarlet Letter wearing an A on your chest for being an adulterer.

HBO has a series on addiction. It shows that yes the brain changes while under the influence of drugs, in particular Meth, and while using the drug, the brain changes, however when the drug is taken away the brain changes go away.

I believe that homosexuality is a choice. As you think so you believe and as you believe so you act. If you believe that you cannot change your thinking and beliefs then all of behavior is doomed to never change and it does so this cannot be true.

Cigarettes/Nicotine are the most addictive substance on the planet and yet when you stop smoking the nicotine is gone in 72 hours. If the rehab facilities were serious about addiction then they would not let their clients smoke and they do.
 
As anyone seriously interested in this topic is aware, the actual causes of same sex attraction remain largely unknown. There may be a genetic or hormonal component, and in some cultures where the sexes are highly segregated a cultural factor is probably involved.

The analogy with alcoholism breaks down, for the simple reason that no one actually has a craving for alcohol until they have experienced it, whereas homosexual desires usually manifest themselves in early puberty, if not somewhat before. Just in the way that heterosexual desires do.

The Church teaches that the inclination to homosexuality is objectively disordered, but remains neutral on its etiology. Theologians after all are not neuroscientists, or trained in psychiatry, nor would they claim to be.

The simple fact is that at the present time we don’t know what causes it.In cidentally, the APA did not remove it as a mental disorder simply because of lobbying, but because there is no known diagnostic test for it; unlike say schizophrenia or OCD.
 
By the way, having observed numerous alcoholics, I don’t think it is a disease. IT is rather a response to certain pre=existing problems in how the brain handles stress, and unfortunately, there is a strong hereditary component here. Neuroscience is actually getting closer to solving this mystery, which may involve the amygdala, and the “fight or flight” mechanism.Studies have shown for example that people who suffer from clinical depression often have close family members who have been alcoholics.
 
Hadrianus said:
As anyone seriously interested in this topic is aware, the actual causes of same sex attraction remain largely unknown. There may be a genetic or hormonal component, and in some cultures where the sexes are highly segregated a cultural factor is probably involved.
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Hadrianus said:
By the way, having observed numerous alcoholics, I don’t think it is a disease. IT is rather a response to certain pre=existing problems in how the brain handles stress, and unfortunately, there is a strong hereditary component here. Neuroscience is actually getting closer to solving this mystery, which may involve the amygdala, and the “fight or flight” mechanism.Studies have shown for example that people who suffer from clinical depression often have close family members who have been alcoholics.
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Hadrianus,

If there is a hereditary component then you are saying it is genetic although it is hereditary. Hereditary is genetic. This is think speak. It is not genetic. It is not hereditary. It is no different than taking up smoking and not being able to quit. Once you quit you quit. There are things called endorphins that correlate with narcotics. William Glasser wrote “Positive Addiction”. In this book based on surveys of runners he postulates that there is such a thing as positive addiction. I don’t agree with what he writes as he did not understand nor did he know about endorphins when he wrote. He also dabbled to conjecture a notion about TM and at the time he did not understand that TM was nothing more than an introduction to hinduism.

The point is that the body has endorphins that correlate with Heroin/morphine/Pain relief and so it is a natural narcotic. There is some relationship to narcotic use and the natural endorphins. On the other hand the body does not produce nicotine/alcohol…these are extraneously introduced.
 
Zosimus41 said:
Once more how can there be a “gay gene” if homosexuals cant reproduce?
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Zosimus,

Gregor Mendhl, a Catholic Monk is the father of genetics. Genetics is not simple. There are sex linked, not sex linked, expressed, incompletely expressed, dominant, recessive and all combinations of genetics. Baldness for instance is a sex linked gene that is carried by and transfered by maternal X…it is expressed in males. The woman carries the gene and only males express it. If there were a gay gene, and there is not, then it is possible that it is transmitted by heterosexuals not knowing it. When there are genes producing illness, anomalies, etc…then genetic counseling guides parenting…etc…
 
Petersmate said:
No its not
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Uh yes it is.

How could a person inclined towards commiting a mortal sin thats in his/her very nature
be able to live a Holy life? Now that my friend brings forth complications! Both for that person and the church.The church is here not to condemn but to save souls.

Bottom line is sex outside of marraige is a mortal sin doesnt matter what lifestyle you choose. So how do you handle the situation of someone who states my lifestyle doesnt fit
the rubrics of the bible and church however they want to go to heaven after they die and they believe in salvation? The church cannot offer these people the full freedom of choice to live as they desire and salvation. I cant imagine the struggle that person must be going through. So I believe it would be complicated.

The church is working very diligently to incorporate homosexuals into salvation.

Cited from the Vatican website

Church this Letter on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons.
  1. Naturally, an exhaustive treatment of this** complex issue **cannot be attempted here, but we will focus our reflection within the distinctive context of the Catholic moral perspective. It is a perspective which finds support in the more secure findings of the natural sciences, which have their own legitimate and proper methodology and field of inquiry.
 
someperson555 said:
…
now do you see the absurdity of saying that homosexuality “is a choice”?
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So, pray tell, where did the idea of sexual “preference” come from?
“We are told by liberals that we live in a pluralistic society and therefore have to be tolerant of others and their ideas. Interesting to note is that when liberals ask for tolerance, they are implicitly admitting that there is something wrong with their ideas and/or behavior. After all, you don’t need to ask people to ‘tolerate’ good ideas or behavior. Mother Teresa never had to ask for tolerance.” – From F. Turek, Correct, Not Politically Correct
 
CopticChristian said:
Zosimus,

Gregor Mendhl, a Catholic Monk is the father of genetics. Genetics is not simple. There are sex linked, not sex linked, expressed, incompletely expressed, dominant, recessive and all combinations of genetics. Baldness for instance is a sex linked gene that is carried by and transfered by maternal X…it is expressed in males. The woman carries the gene and only males express it. If there were a gay gene, and there is not, then it is possible that it is transmitted by heterosexuals not knowing it. When there are genes producing illness, anomalies, etc…then genetic counseling guides parenting…etc…
Click to expand...
Peace of Chirst be with you

Thank you for responding.

The point is you can not have genes from no where. Whether the gene is more common in males or females, African American,American Indians etc… with out reproduction.
Anomalies are rare thats why they are called anomalies simply put there are too many people out there calling themselves homosexual to be any sort of genetic anomily or rouge gene.

And if it were a mutated gene causing people to be homosexuals science would have found it by now.

How can there be a non sex linked gene? unless its a genetic disorder thats caused by abnormalities in genes or chromosomes. Most genetic disorders are quite rare and affect one person in every several thousands or millions
 
chris62 said:
I heard a priest recently explain that homosexuality is a disorder, like drug addiction, and I agreed with him.
Some people fall into drug addiction because their make-up is such that just a little bit of some drug gets them hooked easily.
They have a propensity in their system to need more and more.
If they lived in a different culture they would not be a drug addict.
I think homosexuality is the same.
Some people may have a slight SSA, and in different cultures it may not rise into a problem. They may suppress that feeling and instead meet a woman and marry and have kids etc. and be perfectly happy.
But in today’s culture, they get hooked into the SSA lifestyle that many including the media tell them is OK, and that it is a natural thing that they are born with, and they get hooked into the homosexual lifestyle.
If the same person lived in a quiet pacific island somewhere, or at a different time in history, then they wouldn’t have a SSA.
Hence the influx of homosexuality at the moment in our particular culture.
I don’t think this applies to all homosexuals, but I think it would apply to many.
Click to expand...
Beleif itself is a drug addiction, if you have any clue how the brain works chemically. And you are so adamant about the wrongness of SSA it almost makes one wonder if you are not struggliing with it yourself and constructing a moral baricade against yourslef and needful honesty. I am saying this because of the astonishing apparent nievety you constantly display over the related threads from you I’ve read in this matter. Perhaps you “protest too much?”
 
Gaber said:
Beleif itself is a drug addiction, if you have any clue how the brain works chemically. And you are so adamant about the wrongness of SSA it almost makes one wonder if you are not struggliing with it yourself and constructing a moral baricade against yourslef and needful honesty. I am saying this because of the astonishing apparent nievety you constantly display over the related threads from you I’ve read in this matter. Perhaps you “protest too much?”
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Wow, its as if you just slapped that poster in the face!

Basically called him/her a homophobe and ignorant.

Im not taking sides but that was a bit harsh.
 
Zosimus41 said:
Peace of Chirst be with you

Thank you for responding.

The point is you can not have genes from no where. Whether the gene is more common in males or females, African American,American Indians etc… with out reproduction.
Anomalies are rare thats why they are called anomalies simply put there are too many people out there calling themselves homosexual to be any sort of genetic anomily or rouge gene.

And if it were a mutated gene causing people to be homosexuals science would have found it by now.

How can there be a non sex linked gene? unless its a genetic disorder thats caused by abnormalities in genes or chromosomes. Most genetic disorders are quite rare and affect one person in every several thousands or millions
Click to expand...
Zo,

There are sex linked and non-sex linked genes. They all carry information. Do a search for the following:
  1. How many chromosomes human
  2. Sex linked vs Non Sex linked genes
Review the following for hereditary disorders and you will see some occur on the X, Y and some on the other chromosomes. There are chromosomes that are not sex related.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genetic_disorders
 
chris62 said:
I heard a priest recently explain that homosexuality is a disorder, like drug addiction, and I agreed with him.
Some people fall into drug addiction because their make-up is such that just a little bit of some drug gets them hooked easily.
They have a propensity in their system to need more and more.
If they lived in a different culture they would not be a drug addict.
I think homosexuality is the same.
Some people may have a slight SSA, and in different cultures it may not rise into a problem. They may suppress that feeling and instead meet a woman and marry and have kids etc. and be perfectly happy.
But in today’s culture, they get hooked into the SSA lifestyle that many including the media tell them is OK, and that it is a natural thing that they are born with, and they get hooked into the homosexual lifestyle.
If the same person lived in a quiet pacific island somewhere, or at a different time in history, then they wouldn’t have a SSA.
Hence the influx of homosexuality at the moment in our particular culture.
I don’t think this applies to all homosexuals, but I think it would apply to many.
Click to expand...
One of the things that is important is to be sensitive to a Poster that has stated that his children are homosexual. The other thing is that this posting stated “disorder”.

I believe we spend too much time studying disorder to trying and understand “why” and less time on “order”. In other words we are inculcated in trying to understand why things are not as we wish rather than what we want things to be.

Psychology and Psychiatry are all about studying abnormal behavior. I have discovered few answers come from this and better answers come from studying normal behavior.

NLP and Neurosemantics approach modeling excellence. Study all the reasons people cannot diet, gain weight, are depressed, all the diets that don’t work…does that give you insight to eat healthy and shed weight? Perhaps.

On the other hand…find someone that eats well, exercises and succeeds then you can study Clarence Bass, do what he does and get similar results.

cbass.com/

I can attest to following Clarences program and getting results…

The same was found in NLP. Bandler and Grinder studied Fritz Perl, Virginia Satir, Milton Erickson, etc and disovered we can model them and produce similar results…Dilts wrote about strategies of genius and L. Michael Hall has pointed out in Secrets of Personal Mastery how modeling genius works. The point?

Homosexuality is a disorder. What then is the order? Who models excellence?

The obvious answer is Christ.

I believe that the homosexual is not a homogenous group. I read and see that there are those that seek ways out of this lifestyle. How do they get there. I propose studying excellence in order.

More time should be spent studying “order” for modelling excellence.

The obvious first choice is Christ. Next the Saints. I suggest that it is important to be charitable to those that believe that this is their plight and for those that want out to suggest reading and studying those that are most ordered. I suggest that all of us can do more good by modeling excellence in this regard for those that are in our life that is disordered as an attractant to change…

Studying and modeling excellence works in NLP. More time should be spent on modeling the ordered than trying to explain the disorder.

The disorder exists. OK. If someone wants to change, study those that are most ordered and model their thinking and behavior. As we think and believe so we act and that is how behavior changes.
 
Hey coptic,

I have be recovering from surgery the past week. I was so bored out of my mind until somehow I came across this website. Unfortunately it is back to work with me. It has been such fun toying with you. You have had me laughing my *** off. Thank you so much for the entertainment. You crack me up. It has been so much fun having you run from here and there. I would just cut and paste stuff off the internet and I can just imagine you taking all that time reading a bunch of ****. I feel kind of bad jerking you around, but I couldn’t resist. You just made it too easy. I wish I could take a couple of more days off to play around with you, but its back to the real world.
 
Hadrianus said:
As anyone seriously interested in this topic is aware, the actual causes of same sex attraction remain largely unknown. There may be a genetic or hormonal component, and in some cultures where the sexes are highly segregated a cultural factor is probably involved.

The analogy with alcoholism breaks down, for the simple reason that no one actually has a craving for alcohol until they have experienced it, whereas homosexual desires usually manifest themselves in early puberty, if not somewhat before. Just in the way that heterosexual desires do.

The Church teaches that the inclination to homosexuality is objectively disordered, but remains neutral on its etiology. Theologians after all are not neuroscientists, or trained in psychiatry, nor would they claim to be.

The simple fact is that at the present time we don’t know what causes it.In cidentally, the APA did not remove it as a mental disorder simply because of lobbying, but because there is no known diagnostic test for it; unlike say schizophrenia or OCD.
Click to expand...
Your last statement is inaccurate. It defies logic. After being a disorder one day, they voted, for no particular reason, to not make it a disorder on another day? Intense lobbying by gay activists compelled the change, not anything scientific.

Peace,
Ed
 
Zosimus41 said:
Uh yes it is.

How could a person inclined towards commiting a mortal sin thats in his/her very nature
be able to live a Holy life? Now that my friend brings forth complications! Both for that person and the church.The church is here not to condemn but to save souls.

Bottom line is sex outside of marraige is a mortal sin doesnt matter what lifestyle you choose. So how do you handle the situation of someone who states my lifestyle doesnt fit
the rubrics of the bible and church however they want to go to heaven after they die and they believe in salvation? The church cannot offer these people the full freedom of choice to live as they desire and salvation. I cant imagine the struggle that person must be going through. So I believe it would be complicated.

The church is working very diligently to incorporate homosexuals into salvation.

Cited from the Vatican website

Church this Letter on the Pastoral Care of Homosexual Persons.
  1. Naturally, an exhaustive treatment of this** complex issue **cannot be attempted here, but we will focus our reflection within the distinctive context of the Catholic moral perspective. It is a perspective which finds support in the more secure findings of the natural sciences, which have their own legitimate and proper methodology and field of inquiry.
Click to expand...
Homosexuals and all those who commit sexual sins can be incorporated into salvation, but all of us, including me, cannot just do whatever. Jesus came to bring us life more abundantly, both here and in the life to come. We must confess our sins but we need to strive, daily, to overcome our inborn desire to sin. Saints did not become saints overnight. Even the Pope goes to Confession.

Starting with the premise that “it’s complicated” without references to Catholics who have same-sex attraction tells us nothing about their actual struggles. God’s infinite mercy is available to all of us, including Father Corapi’s dad, who admitted he had not gone to Confession in a long time. Some of us may be saved by confessing our sins on our death beds, but I would advise doing something sooner rather than later.

Peace,
Ed
 
Grace & Peace!
edwest2 said:
Your last statement is inaccurate. It defies logic. After being a disorder one day, they voted, for no particular reason, to not make it a disorder on another day? Intense lobbying by gay activists compelled the change, not anything scientific.
Click to expand...
Ed, I believe what Hadrianus was getting at is that regardless of “lobbying,” the APA recognized that homosexuality in itself did not represent a mental pathology–that is, homosexual people were not, by virtue of the fact of their homosexuality, more likely to exhibit signs of a pathological psychology than a heterosexual person. Whatever pathological behavior or mental states that they may exhibit or from which they may suffer were a result of some other cause and not directly attributable to their homosexuality in itself. Once this was recognized, homosexuality did not meet the standard for mental disorder.

Whether or not there was “lobbying” by one group or another does not change the fact that the APA was correct in making its decision based on its understanding of pathologies and their causes.

I understand, however, that the “lobbying” story is so frequently-told and well-cherished by some that it makes little difference what is accurate and what is not with regard to the APA’s decision.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
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