The disorder of homosexuality

[TylerEast]

Pre-post: New here, decided not to read through the pages and pages and pages of posts on this subject.

So…someone explain to me why you care that someone likes sleeping with another person of the same sex. Not trying to start a war here, just curious.

 

[fix]

I find it completely amazing how a subject like homosexuality being right or wrong can yield such inconsiderate and outrageous replies. Here is the BOTTOM LINE… The Catholic Faith and teachings from Jesus Christ HIMSELF is to LOVE they neighbor as Thyself! Every person who follows this is both heterosexual and homosexual! Those words are based on desire of LOVE for a person NOT sex! How one chooses to indulge their sexuality when it comes to the act of sex itself is completely THEIR choice, and something THEY have to settle with their OWN conscience!

Conscience is never above truth.

It is not for you or anyone else to decide what someone does behind their bedroom door is morally right or wrong!

Says who? Why does truth get excluded from any room?

That is not your right as a person who is showing Christ-like LOVE for another human being! Jesus himself would never turn his back on a person because of who they engaged in a sexual act with! It is you and I who will choose to turn our back on Him!!! And as quick as you are to say the gay guy and the lesbian are wrong or “disordered” or sick in the head, you are placing judgment on another human being which IN FACT is NOY MORALLY RIGHT!

Ironic. Are you judging right here? Yes, of course.

So for ONCE I would love to see the gay and lesbian right or wrong discussion left alone and discuss more important and pressing issues…

The issue is not brought up by Catholics. Catholic respond to the assault.

Like the government trying to dictate birth control! Or the Homeless and Hungry in your towns, or disaster relief in our country, or visiting and educating the sick or in prisoned! Those and MANY MANY more issues are of much more concern that who is doing what in their own home and if it is right or wrong! Come ON Catholics!!!

I thought immortal souls were important and that the Church was founded for the salvation of souls. You have introduced a new theology here. .

 

[fix]

Yes, I must say that when I first discovered Catholic Answers I found it somewhat interesting. But the endless obsession with sex is, quite frankly, not very edifying. All cultures of course, have sexual tensions caused by the fallen human condition, but in America it seems to be a fixation. How much of this was caused by Irish catholicsim and how much by protestant fundamentalism I don’t know. But my guess is that the two together melded into the peculiar state of affairs we have today.

It is an ironic reality that the words “liberal” and “conservative” now hold mostly sexual connotations.

Yes, so children are now exposed to homosexual propaganda. So they are adopted by two man acting as mother and father. I mean really not like anything important is going on. Do souls matter or is that fundamentalism and Irish Catholicism too?

 

[CopticChristian]

Pre-post: New here, decided not to read through the pages and pages and pages of posts on this subject.

So…someone explain to me why you care that someone likes sleeping with another person of the same sex. Not trying to start a war here, just curious.

Tyler,

This is Catholic Answers, someone posted a thread with the title you found. Some people are interested in the discussion. I have learned from the discussion. I care. If you don’t care, then you have a choice, as you log in avoid this thread.

 

[fix]

Well, please know that CAF presents are very different view of the Church from that experienced IRL.

I am frankly shocked about some of the views and ideas expressed around here. I suspect our bishops and even Pope would be as well.

I doubt the Pope would be shocked, probably saddened by the dictatorship of relativism supported not only by non Catholics but by Catholics as well. It is a real shame.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’m a bit worried about the assertion that Theologians don’t know definitively what ‘causes’ homosexuality but just in case it’s a matter of choice or free will they class it as disordered and sexual activity as a mortal sin. Of course theologians have been wrong before. Galileo was excommunicated for saying the earth went round the sun, limbo has (at long last) been put to bed as non existent. I think charity should dictate that we should allow ourselves to be open to the nature/nurture hypothesis. There does seem to be an amount of personal distaste for gay people exhibited among the correspondents, and prurient and unhelpful links drawn between peodeophiles and homosexuals. As we know the vast majority of that vile practice takes place in the home, and as for the catholic church in that particular degraded arena ‘people who live in glass houses should not throw stones’

Jimmy,

I understand by reading your postings that you have trouble with this issue and it is a sensitive issue. I am not sure that the best people to decide the cause would be Theologians. I believe that General Semantics, NLP, Neurosemantics and the Meta model may provide more insight.

Let me explain. The Meta model allows for self reflexion on behavior. It is possible to understand that at some point some decision, acceptance, belief was formed when confronted with the notion of “homosexuality”…this is fact and true for everything.

We take in the world through our senses and since we have not experienced everything in the world this intake is neutral until meaning is attached.

OOOH…I don’t like Tuna Sushi. It’s just raw fish…Yeah but the very thought of it…how can you eat it…So you see a piece of raw fish…never experienced it…it has a negative connotation…until you eat it and then through taste you either like it or not and then have a formed opinion of Sushi the next time you see it or take the position…I like Sushi once you put it in the microwave.

You can also go backwards in time to discover the time at which you formed an opinion to the neutral thing that you attached meaning to, and in this instance those that would say “I did not choose to be gay”…have to admit that sometime in their life something was presented that was acceptable or not. There is no other way. If that acceptance happened at some time then the reality is that according to the Meta model, ie phobias, by recognizing this and phobias can be "cured’ or beliefs changed then the notion that “I was born this way” does not compute.

OK.

 

[TylerEast]

Tyler,

This is Catholic Answers, someone posted a thread with the title you found. Some people are interested in the discussion. I have learned from the discussion. I care. If you don’t care, then you have a choice, as you log in avoid this thread.

The brief scan I did over a few pages yielded very little in the way of motives. I was hoping for just a list of “here’s why I care” so I could understand the other side’s (also known as trying to establish a connection or understanding) thought process. I may care, but as of now have not found a reason to care. Maybe you’ve seen something I haven’t and that is why you are so outraged at homosexuality.

I guess trying to be civil, trying to understand one another, and the Socratic method will all be met with scorn and sass from you and what looks like many others on this forum. Which is a shame, I was hoping that wouldn’t be the case.

Anyways, if anyone wants to answer the original question (“Why do you care if someone likes to sleep with someone of the same sex”), I’d be grateful.

 

[fix]

The brief scan I did over a few pages yielded very little in the way of motives. I was hoping for just a list of “here’s why I care” so I could understand the other side’s (also known as trying to establish a connection or understanding) thought process. I may care, but as of now have not found a reason to care. Maybe you’ve seen something I haven’t and that is why you are so outraged at homosexuality.

I guess trying to be civil, trying to understand one another, and the Socratic method will all be met with scorn and sass from you and what looks like many others on this forum. Which is a shame, I was hoping that wouldn’t be the case.

Anyways, if anyone wants to answer the original question (“Why do you care if someone likes to sleep with someone of the same sex”), I’d be grateful.

The real question is why are people concerned about the effects of normalizing abnormal behavior.

 

[CopticChristian]

The brief scan I did over a few pages yielded very little in the way of motives. I was hoping for just a list of **“here’s why I care” **so I could understand the other side’s (also known as trying to establish a connection or understanding) thought process. I may care, but as of now have not found a reason to care. Maybe you’ve seen something I haven’t and that is why you are so outraged at homosexuality.

I guess trying to be civil, trying to understand one another, and the Socratic method will all be met with scorn and sass from you and what looks like many others on this forum. Which is a shame, I was hoping that wouldn’t be the case.

Anyways, if anyone wants to answer the original question (“Why do you care if someone likes to sleep with someone of the same sex”), I’d be grateful.

Read the original posting…OK

I heard a priest recently explain that homosexuality is a disorder, like drug addiction, and I agreed with him.
Some people fall into drug addiction because their make-up is such that just a little bit of some drug gets them hooked easily.
They have a propensity in their system to need more and more.
If they lived in a different culture they would not be a drug addict.
I think homosexuality is the same.
Some people may have a slight SSA, and in different cultures it may not rise into a problem. They may suppress that feeling and instead meet a woman and marry and have kids etc. and be perfectly happy.
But in today’s culture, they get hooked into the SSA lifestyle that many including the media tell them is OK, and that it is a natural thing that they are born with, and they get hooked into the homosexual lifestyle.
If the same person lived in a quiet pacific island somewhere, or at a different time in history, then they wouldn’t have a SSA.
Hence the influx of homosexuality at the moment in our particular culture.
I don’t think this applies to all homosexuals, but I think it would apply to many.

Read the Cathechism of the OHCAC, realize that this is Catholic Answers.

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

Now understand that Mother Church tells me and all Catholics that Homosexuality is disordered. Johnny…what does your mom and dad say about playing with guns…well here is what mommy and daddy say and so the discussion goes…

Here we have a posting that asks what our God/Father and Mother/Church have to say about homosexuality. If you consider that this is outrage I do not understand your perspective. If you consider that I care so much…well I respect my parents.

If you don’t like the answer I am reminded of the movie working girl…Melanie Griffith in the movie was asked to get married and the answer was maybe…Maybe, Alec Baldwin said…I am not sure I like that…if you don’t like the answer…she said…ask another question.

 

[ringil]

The brief scan I did over a few pages yielded very little in the way of motives. I was hoping for just a list of “here’s why I care” so I could understand the other side’s (also known as trying to establish a connection or understanding) thought process. I may care, but as of now have not found a reason to care. Maybe you’ve seen something I haven’t and that is why you are so outraged at homosexuality.

I guess trying to be civil, trying to understand one another, and the Socratic method will all be met with scorn and sass from you and what looks like many others on this forum. Which is a shame, I was hoping that wouldn’t be the case.

Anyways, if anyone wants to answer the original question (“Why do you care if someone likes to sleep with someone of the same sex”), I’d be grateful.

I, as a Catholic, am only concerned with morality among Catholics, or more precisely, the expression of accurate morality. In that vein the Church acknowledges that homosexual acts are gravely sinful but the homosexual inclination is not sinful as it is not a choice. Homosexuals are called to chastity as are all Catholics.

On another related matter. The nature of homosexuality is disordered in that it does not lead naturally to procreation, however homosexuality is not a “disorder” despite, for some unknown reason, some around here want to press. I don’t get it.

So personally I have no interest in what folks do in the bedroom, only what I do. I do care that an accurate picture is given so that Catholics can receive an accurate picture of what sound sexual morality is.

I hope that helps and is less crass than some responses you have received.

Regarding the Socratic Method- I don’t know it! I have little formal knowledge of philosophy.

 

[CopticChristian]

I, as a Catholic, am only concerned with morality among Catholics, or more precisely, the expression of accurate morality. In that vein the Church acknowledges that homosexual acts are gravely sinful but the homosexual inclination is not sinful as** it is not a choice. ** Homosexuals are called to chastity as are all Catholics.

On another related matter. The nature of homosexuality is disordered in that it does not lead naturally to procreation, however **homosexuality is not a “disorder” despite, for some unknown reason, some around here want to press. I don’t get it. **

So personally I have no interest in what folks do in the bedroom, only what I do. I do care that an accurate picture is given so that Catholics can receive an accurate picture of what sound sexual morality is.

I hope that helps and is less crass than some responses you have received.

Regarding the Socratic Method- I don’t know it! I have little formal knowledge of philosophy.

Ring,

Your opinion as to choice is your opinion and only your opinion as you choose to believe that.

Your conjecture as to why people see things as disordered that you do not agree with has to do with beliefs that cannot be changed by your opinion. Understand the controversy. Homosexuality was a disorder according to the APA and now it is not and the reasons we know why. 80% America believes that Alcoholism is a disease and the majority of Physicians do not believe it is. Through marketing this notion of disease has been propogated.

You have to live with and accept that you cannot change the way people think. Some will think and believe homosexuallity is disordered. Some, as I do, believe it is a choice. You have to contend with explaining the OHCAC position that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.

Now recognize this. When Jesus said if you think of having sex with another woman while married…then you have committed adultery. So, understand that the homosexual when fantasizing about disordered acts that are not committed have disordered thoughts…those thoughts emanate from the same place that causes those acts to be committed and be disordered. This you should understand.

 

[ringil]

Ring,

You have to live with and accept that you cannot change the way people think. Some will think and believe homosexuallity is disordered. Some, as I do, believe it is a choice. You have to contend with explaining the OHCAC position that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.
.

Contend? I don’t need to contend. I agree and clearly express the teaching of the Church. Homosexuality is indeed, disordered, but being homosexual is not a sin, nor has the Church stated it is a choice. Infact the Church has specifically distanced itself from this rather simplistic and immature view, in the CCC.

BTW, you state you are a physician, however you don’t really express yourself as I would expect someone well aware of the complexities of the human experience would. What kind of doctor are you? Are you board certified?

 

[TylerEast]

What kind of doctor are you? Are you board certified?

Probably something to take to PM’s…

@Coptic: So in just basic english, less than 200 words: Why does homosexuality concern you?

 

[Gaber]

Dear CC,

I see that your position has deteriorated to the level that you are using shouting and irritating typography to attempt to make you point, even so far as to apply your needs to the quotations of others. Maybe a break is in order till you calm down???

 

[CopticChristian]

Contend? I don’t need to contend. I agree and clearly express the teaching of the Church. Homosexuality is indeed, disordered, but being homosexual is not a sin, nor has the Church stated it is a choice. Infact the Church has specifically distanced itself from this rather simplistic and immature view, in the CCC.

BTW, you state you are a physician, however you don’t really express yourself as I would expect someone well aware of the complexities of the human experience would. What kind of doctor are you? Are you board certified?

Ringil,

A good one, yes and my opinion is that it is a choice. When you choose to act on diordered thoughts you make a choice. You may want to look at William Glasser, MD, Choice Theory and Reality Therapy.

You don’t have to like my opinion, you don’t have to accept my opinion, you don’t have to agree with my opinion…it is my opinion. Behavioral Health, NLP, Neurosemantics would be dead if there was no choice in behavior.

Your notion of “choice” does not correlate with the real world and behavior and this is inconcistent with General Semantics tenant…the map is not the territory…your map is not inclined nor consistent with the territory…it’s your map and that is how you operate.

What you expect and what you get sometimes differ. It is what it is. Your opinion is understood.

 

[CopticChristian]

Probably something to take to PM’s…

@Coptic: So in just basic english, less than 200 words: Why does homosexuality concern you?

Your cryptic message makes no sense…PM?

So in basic English why in less than 200 words, why does homosexuality concern you…

Well, while I search for 200 words, may I offer you this

Because:thumbsup:

 

[CopticChristian]

Dear CC,

I see that your position has deteriorated to the level that you are using shouting and irritating typography to attempt to make you point, even so far as to apply your needs to the quotations of others. Maybe a break is in order till you calm down???

Gaber,

I find your notions interesting. It proves the point that we communicate with words and that our minds infer meaning. You infer and percieve and declare deterioration. You perceive and infer shouting. You do not like quotes. You believe I should calm down…

This is a fascinating perspective that can only be understood by you. You appear not to like my approach. I can understand.

I like my approach. You don’t understand.

Sometimes what we think is true is not true but what we believe is as true as what is true. Perceived reality is as real as reality. I understand your perspective and a glimpse of your reality.

You never answered my question, Are you Robert Dinero?

 

[TylerEast]

Your cryptic message makes no sense…PM?

So in basic English why in less than 200 words, why does homosexuality concern you…

Well, while I search for 200 words, may I offer you this

Because:thumbsup:

PM= personal message. I was expressing that if he wanted to call your licensing into question it would probably be more appropriate in a less public setting.

If you don’t offer explanations no one will ever understand your point of view, and you will be met with nothing but resistance. If that’s cool with you then so be it, it just means you’ll have that much harder of a time getting people to accept you and your views.

Can’t tell if I smell a troll in the dungeon or you’re just extremely bigoted…

 

[CopticChristian]

PM= personal message. I was expressing that if he wanted to call your licensing into question it would probably be more appropriate in a less public setting.

If you don’t offer explanations no one will ever understand your point of view, and you will be met with nothing but resistance. If that’s cool with you then so be it, it just means you’ll have that much harder of a time getting people to accept you and your views.

Can’t tell if I smell a troll in the dungeon or you’re just extremely bigoted…

PM is now understood.

The OHCAC is my point of view. I understand that this is not understood.

My point of view of choice has been explained.

What in the world is troll and bigoted about…?

 

[TylerEast]

After looking up OHCAC and finding very…very…very little in the way of information on it, maybe you can point me in the right direction. I know it stands for One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church but that is all I know of it so far.

What are the views of OHCAC? And not just what are they, but WHY are they?