The disorder of homosexuality

[CopticChristian]

So?

I don’t see what you are getting at here.

I don’t understand what your problem is.

So, homosexuals have taken the notion of disorder as you have and elaborated on it and object to the OHCAC stating that homosexuality is disordered. The discussion of the APA is not relevant other than to say that the APA and the DSM have little value, William Glasser, MD and I, MD agree.

Disordered as the APA has voted and then unvoted has nothing to do with disordered as stated in the Catechism

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that “**homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered.”**142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

This thread is “the disorder of homosexuality”…homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered based on Sacred Scripture, Tradition and teachings of the Church and is not related to the APA with less than 2000 years of existence.

 

[ReapReason]

So, homosexuals have taken the notion of disorder as you have and elaborated on it and object to the OHCAC stating that homosexuality is disordered. The discussion of the APA is not relevant other than to say that the APA and the DSM have little value, William Glasser, MD and I, MD agree.

Disordered as the APA has voted and then unvoted has nothing to do with disordered as stated in the Catechism

Chastity and homosexuality

This thread is “the disorder of homosexuality”…homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered based on Sacred Scripture, Tradition and teachings of the Church and is not related to the APA with less than 2000 years of existence.

I still don’t understand your problem concerning what i wrote in my post. Did I say that homosexuality is not intrinsically disordered?

 

[CopticChristian]

I still don’t understand your problem concerning what i wrote in my post. Did I say that homosexuality is not intrinsically disordered?

Reap,

The APA definition of “disorder” has no relevance to the OHCAC stating…

Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

There is no need to explain the APA as it is not relevant. Your need to explain somehow suggests thoughts that relevancy exists. One sentence is all that is needed.

 

[fix]

According the APA’s definition of disorder, it is not a disorder to experience desires towards the same sex because it is not evident that having those attractions will necessarily effect their ability to function in society. The reason for this consensus among the APA community, is because the number of people with SSA that want to be in a homosexual relationship appears to outweigh the number of people who choose to see themselves as inflicted, and therefore it is not profitable for the APA to define it as a disorder, because having same sex attraction does not stop the gay community from functioning properly in society. It only effects those who either try to suppress their attractions or people who for some reason or other disapprove of homosexual behaviour.

And while I hold to a different understanding of disorder, I don’t think its the states or the public health systems responsibility to enforce who sleeps with who or have a voice concerning the moral nature of sex accept in those cases where it is evident that there was no freewill involved.

Who we sleep with is the individuals responsibility.

What you wrote has some truth regarding these professional organizations that claim to be scientific but have a huge does of politics in them. But, I think it a bit reductionist.

The fundamental problem is how health and disease are defined.

 

[CopticChristian]

What you wrote has some truth regarding these professional organizations that claim to be scientific but have a huge does of politics in them. But, I think it a bit reductionist.

The fundamental problem is how health and disease are defined.

Fix,

I don’t want to get started but the APA votes out homosexuality as a disorder and includes Alcoholism as a disorder and then people have been told it is a disease. I don’t want to get started on this. There are economic reasons for the DSM and in fact the DSM V has been expanded for ADD to include far reaching signs, etc to include more that they can prescribe medication for…there are changes afoot to change the language as it regards Transgendered as well…The DSM is not an example of good medical practice, it is subject to whim, and change by controversy.

 

[Stephen168]

He won’t answer my question.

Elizabeth502 is right, the media are complicit in trying to make homosexuality not just normal but equivalent to normal heterosexual relationships. It’s all on the same continuum of the Left as making unlike things equivalent. Men are equivalent to women. Therefore two women are the same as a man and a woman for all purposes (although biology gets in the way there) so one cannot “discriminate” against male male or female female pairings with respect to children or church teachings. It is after all “hate speech” to say that a pair of lesbians are not the same as my mom and dad…

Right…

Hey Tsk, will you answer my question?
Lisa

I’m not sure why you addressed this to me. I have never disagreed with Elizabeth502. Sadly she completely misunderstood my line of questioning to tsk which he has not answered. I think we both know why he wouldn’t.

 

[ReapReason]

Reap,

The APA definition of “disorder” has no relevance to the OHCAC stating…

There is no need to explain the APA as it is not relevant. Your need to explain somehow suggests thoughts that relevancy exists. One sentence is all that is needed.

I think it is relevant, because people in general tend to think that organisations like the APA represent the definitive standard by which one should considered somebody as having a disorder or not.

Young people are not interested in your catechism which merely asserts that it is an intrinsic disorder. They need to know why its a disorder, and quotes from the catechism isn’t going to cut it. Right now there is a growing tidal wave of angry people who are convinced that the Catholic church is a fascist backwards organisation. And guess what; they have the backing of the state and the APA. So when it comes to the question of who looks sane and legitimate in the eyes of society, I can tell you right now that the Catholic church is losing that War.

Its never about what it truly is. Its about what it looks like. And right now you look like a fascist.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’m not sure why you addressed this to me. I have never disagreed with Elizabeth502. Sadly she completely misunderstood my line of questioning to tsk which he has not answered. I think we both know why he wouldn’t.

Stephen,

Tsk originally posted as “Catholic” and now posts as ECC. Tsk has a homosexual agenda and will never answer yes/no…but in generalities…using a bible passage here and one there…you will get nebulous answers suggesting an agenda.

 

[fix]

Fix,

I don’t want to get started but the APA votes out homosexuality as a disorder and includes Alcoholism as a disorder and then people have been told it is a disease. I don’t want to get started on this. There are economic reasons for the DSM and in fact the DSM V has been expanded for ADD to include far reaching signs, etc to include more that they can prescribe medication for…there are changes afoot to change the language as it regards Transgendered as well…The DSM is not an example of good medical practice, it is subject to whim, and change by controversy.

The explanation RR gave would probably be supported by the APA. I am not agreeing with the reasons only agreeing that is what they would say.

As I said the deeper problem is inauthentic definitions of health and disease.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’m not sure why you addressed this to me. I have never disagreed with Elizabeth502. Sadly she completely misunderstood my line of questioning to tsk which he has not answered. I think we both know why he wouldn’t.

Take a look at the only thread started by Tsk…

I seem to have arrived at a liminal time in life, the threshold of something new. Both of my parents and my mother in-law are in their 80’s and experiencing failing health. My sister is addicted to drugs, is in poor health and has sent a number of suicide notes to her out of state siblings (including me). I lost my job in 2006 and have struggled to find work here and there for more than 4 years now. Our Bishop closed our church - it was too “liberal” in its pursuit of Vatican II changes and he is much more conservative than our prior Bishop. As a result my youngest 2 have not been confirmed in the church.

Through all of this Christ has drawn me closer and I have worked hard to correct the sinful ways of my youth - it has been a time of great growth and blessings. I started a Men’s group, began working weekly with a spiritual director and have joined a 12step program to help me deal with a history of abuse and addictions in my family of origin. I now find myself without a car, living in the country and wanting to perform service work - however I’m not sure if that is God’s will for me right now. My wife works with poor children that have developmental problems and volunteers extensively in the community.

Please pray that I may have the patience and courage to see clearly the Lord’s will and the wisdom to act on it. I’m feeling someone stuck and don’t know which way to go right now.

Thank you for your prayers.

Tsk routinely posts to support homosexuality…suggesting a Catholic background

 

[CopticChristian]

I think it is relevant, because people in general tend to think that organisations like the APA represent the definitive standard by which one should considered somebody as having a disorder or not.

Young people are not interested in your catechism which merely asserts that it is an intrinsic disorder. They need to know why its a disorder, and quotes from the catechism isn’t going to cut it. Right now there is growing tidal wave of angry people who are convinced that the Catholic church is a fascist backwards organisation. And guess what; they have the backing of the state and the APA. So when it comes to the question of who looks sane and legitimate in the eyes of society, I can tell you right now that the Catholic church is losing that War.
Its never about what it truly is. Its about what it looks like. And right now you look like a fascist.

I am not concerned about the state and the APA. Governments come and go. The only government I am concerned with is Vatican city and the kindgom of the OHCAC. Anger is an emotion that is a catalyst for change. The OHCAC is backwards…does not change much…the world does…and that is why documents like Gaudium et Spes…The Church in the Modern world exist…the world changes…the Church does not…

Those that are angry and the tidal waves suggests that the existence of the OHCAC is no different than what happened 3000 years ago…

This is a historical record of the days gone by…not much difference I say…

Folly and Wickedness of Men.

For the choir director. A Psalm of David.

1The fool has said in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they have committed abominable deeds;
There is no one who does good.

2The LORD has looked down from heaven upon the sons of men
To see if there are any who understand,
Who seek after God.

3They have all turned aside, together they have become corrupt;
There is no one who does good, not even one.

**4Do all the workers of wickedness not know,
Who eat up my people as they eat bread,
And do not call upon the Lord?

5There they are in great dread,
For God is with the righteous generation. **
6You would put to shame the counsel of the afflicted,
But the LORD is his refuge.

7Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion!
When the LORD restores His captive people,
Jacob will rejoice, Israel will be glad.

Imagine every Bible in the world that people read and there are more people reading it than not…they see just this…so let them get angry…what was true then is true now…

 

[ReapReason]

I am not concerned about the state and the APA. Governments come and go. The only government I am concerned with is Vatican city and the kindgom of the OHCAC. Anger is an emotion that is a catalyst for change. The OHCAC is backwards…does not change much…the world does…and that is why documents like Gaudium et Spes…The Church in the Modern world exist…the world changes…the Church does not…

Those that are angry and the tidal waves suggests that the existence of the OHCAC is no different than what happened 3000 years ago…

This is a historical record of the days gone by…not much difference I say…

Imagine every Bible in the world that people read and there are more people reading it than not…they see just this…so let them get angry…what was true then is true now…

In other-words, you have no interest in rationally defending your beliefs and values. You just want to dictate what you believe is true and to hell with everyone else that demands a rational exposition of your faith.

Correct?

I don’t know why I bothered responding to you.

 

[CopticChristian]

In other-words, you have no interest in rationally defending your beliefs and values. You just want to dictate what you believe is true and to hell with everyone else that demands a rational exposition of your faith.

Correct?

I don’t know why I bothered responding to you.

Reap,

I admit that taking your time to respond to me is going to be frustrating. I know it sounds like being dictated to…but truly…most of what I believe is really irrational…now get this…

I believe that this man, Jesus…was a God/Man…the entire world does not believe that but when you look at the world, in consideration that there was just one man…there are now entire countries that believe this…you should look at how many Christians there are in the world that believe this…this guy Jesus…really caused many to believe this…

Now, of course then there is God…Can’t see, touch, feel, unless you believe…can you believe that I believe that bread and wine are body and blood…yup irrational…so you then have to believe in God…

Now, wow I don’t know how to say this…but you recall the knights, King arthur…well heck we have a Queen of England…anyway we believe that the OHCAC is the Kingdom…not country,not state…but the Kingdom of God on earth…

I don’t know why anyone would waste time trying getting someone to reason and debate with a guy who believes this stuff…and get this…all these teachings I accept are not based on reason…

I understand your frustration…

 

[tskrobacz]

Take a look at the only thread started by Tsk…

Tsk routinely posts to support homosexuality…suggesting a Catholic background

Perhaps it is you that have an agenda, Coptic Christian, since you search back over years to find my earlier posts and draw them into this topic? Let’s keep this on topic instead of making a personal attack.

 

[LisaA]

In other-words, you have no interest in rationally defending your beliefs and values. You just want to dictate what you believe is true and to hell with everyone else that demands a rational exposition of your faith.

Correct?

I don’t know why I bothered responding to you.

ReapReason if you read the Catechism and other Catholic teaching regarding homosexuality you will see a very clear and rational and reasoned conclusion based not only on the Word of God (which you apparently disdain) but natural law and biology which you may find credible. While the Church doesn’t need to justify itself, the fact that reason and intelligence are considered important in formulating the teachings should give you some assurance that this is not a collection of stories made up 'round the campfire.

What drew me to the Church as the child of highly educated intellectual atheists, is that each teaching was internally and externally consistent, supported by a very rational and carefully structured argument. Try to poke holes in them RR and you’ll be found wanting I assure you.

You’ve jumped into this thread late and like “Spenc” haven’t read the past posts which did address many of your questions. Coptic Christian and others who have a command of the Catechism have posted a number of statements that you have either ignored or dismissed since you obviously are not either a believer or a scholar of Catholicism, Christianity or the Bible.

So to take the other side of things, homosexuality is abnormal behavior. The APA may vote it in or out based on agendas, a desire to protect homosexuals (this was a statement by one of the leaders of the demands to change the DSM), the usual Leftist approach to base everything on feelings or a desire to remove social stigman. However homosexuality is a procreative dead end and all species fight to survive, ergo a behavior that is opposed to propagating the species is abnormal by definiition. BTW this was a conclusion given to me by my atheist parents who were university professors in biology. Further homosexual acts compromise the health of those who practice them. It is more serious for men but women too have medical issues related to their homosexual practices. Homosexuals have higher rates of mental illness, drug addiction, suicide than heterosexuals.

OK RR, tell me how a behavior that produces nothing for the propagation of the species, compromises the mental and physical health of those who engage in it should be considered anything but abnormal, self destructive or as we say in the Church, disordered.

This is not fascist as biology isn’t fascist, it’s just biology.

Lisa

 

[spencelo]

However homosexuality is a procreative dead end and all species fight to survive, ergo a behavior that is opposed to propagating the species is abnormal by definiition. BTW this was a conclusion given to me by my atheist parents who were university professors in biology.

Your argument reduces to: because they can’t procreate, it’s wrong. Please explain why it’s wrong to engage in sexual activities when they won’t result in procreation.

Further homosexual acts compromise the health of those who practice them. It is more serious for men but women too have medical issues related to their homosexual practices.

It’s called not practicing safe-sex.

Homosexuals have higher rates of mental illness, drug addiction, suicide than heterosexuals.

And why is that supposed to show that homosexual behaviors are bad? You assume causation when there’s only correlation.

 

[LisaA]

Your argument reduces to: because they can’t procreate, it’s wrong. Please explain why it’s wrong to engage in sexual activities when they won’t result in procreation.

It’s called not practicing safe-sex.

And why is that supposed to show that homosexual behaviors are bad? You assume causation when there’s only correlation.

You really have a hard time distinguishing between the faith based arguments and biology. If a species engages in non-procreative acts it demonstrates a behavior that is not only self destructive but destructive to the species. It’s biology remember? Do you believe in biology since it’s clear you do not believe in God?

You are reducing the health consequences to AIDS and there is no such thing as “safe sex.” If you would please go back and read all of the rather graphic posts detailing the MULTIPLE health issues related to homosexuality that would answer question 2.

As I said, from an objective point of view Spence, stand back and consider:

Homosexuality is destructive of a species
Homosexuality is destructive of the human body
Homosexuality results in increased mental illness, drug addiction and suicide

Tell me Spence, how do you conclude that it’s “a good thing” (with apologies to Marth Stewart)

Lisa

 

[spencelo]

If a species engages in non-procreative acts it demonstrates a behavior that is not only self destructive but destructive to the species. It’s biology remember?

I’m confused as to what you’re claiming now. Homosexuals aren’t “a species,” but members of one. So more accurately, your claim should be: “if members of a species engages in non-procreative acts it demonstrates a behavior that is destructive to the species.” But of course, you haven’t given me the slightest reason why I should think this. Do we humans have a low population problem? Is there any evidence that “non-procreative acts” – which, btw, aren’t restricted to homosexuals – are destroying our species? Please explain.

Do you believe in biology since it’s clear you do not believe in God?

I don’t believe that biology shows what you think it shows.

You are reducing the health consequences to AIDS and there is no such thing as “safe sex.” If you would please go back and read all of the rather graphic posts detailing the MULTIPLE health issues related to homosexuality that would answer question 2.

Is sex always 100% safe? No. But sex can nevertheless be made reasonably safe with proper care and handling.

As I said, from an objective point of view Spence, stand back and consider:

Homosexuality is destructive of a species

Not something you’ve demonstrated.

Homosexuality is destructive of the human body

Depends on whether safe sex is practiced – same is true of heterosexual acts.

Homosexuality results in increased mental illness, drug addiction and suicide

What’s the evidence for this claim? You’ve supplied none.

 

[spencelo]

Btw, Lisa: In case you weren’t aware, the sexual acts homosexuals engage in are also ones that heterosexuals engage in as well (e.g., anal sex). So it’s not accurate to describe a certain sex act, like anal sex, as “homosexual” – as opposed to heterosexual. It would be more accurate to define “homosexual acts” as sexual activity between people of the same sex – not acts that are only practiced by homosexuals.

Do you object to some or all homosexual acts? I assume you object to anal sex, but what about kissing, fondling, cuddling, and oral sex? Are those acts “unsafe” as well?

 

[Gaber]

Btw, Lisa: In case you weren’t aware, the sexual acts homosexuals engage in are also ones that heterosexuals engage in as well (e.g., anal sex). So it’s not accurate to describe a certain sex act, like anal sex, as “homosexual” – as opposed to heterosexual. It would be more accurate to define “homosexual acts” as sexual activity between people of the same sex – not acts that are only practiced by homosexuals.

Do you object to some or all homosexual acts? I assume you object to anal sex, but what about kissing, fondling, cuddling, and oral sex? Are those acts “unsafe” as well?

Spencelo, you rascally spirit. You remind me of the cartoon where Jacob is wrestling the angel and it is captioned: “And lo, the angel said to Jacob, (while using Jacob’s own hands as weapons against him,) ‘Why doest thou pummel thineself with thine own hands?’”

As you rightfully indicate, nothing that homosexuals do is specifically homosexual. What is homosexual is whom they do it with, espcially males, that particular issue not being as prominent with our lesbian sisters. But if we remember that when we flush with the toilet lid up, our toothbrush gets what is aerosoled from the bowl, maybe we would be less enthusiastic about pointing fingers at who is being unclean and mind our own business.