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Cat
Guest
So what do you physically DO when “pop slop and recycled Protestant songs” are done in a Mass?
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roadsend
Guest
I put my hearing aids on mute, read and meditate on the propers and seasonal antiphons in my daily missal. Other folks in my acquaintance pray the Rosary while the music ministers are doing what they do up front on the stage.
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liturgyluver
Guest
This is a common mistake that most people make! The reason you do not hear the missal antiphones - they are not Propers - being sung is because they are not supposed to be sung! They are only there to be spoken when there is no singing at those points in the liturgy. And there isn’t one at the Offertory.
The missal antiphons are not the “propers” set to music which come from a different source - actually two different sources - and which are one of the options provided for in the GIRM.
This article explains it further:
ccwatershed.org/Roman_Missal/
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roadsend
Guest
Interesting point. I was not aware that the antiphons in the missalette do not always coincide with the Propers of the Mass. These antiphons, however, often have the same texts as the Propers and I have heard them sung in Latin at other churches when I travel.
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liturgyluver
Guest
At my chuch the choir usually sings the Proper Introit and then we have a processional hymn. The Communion antiphon is spoken at the Saturday eveing mass at which we don’t have a communion hymn.
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roadsend
Guest
Your church sounds like a church I attend in Portland, Oregon whenever I can. Considering the exigencies involved, the seven or so hour round trip isn’t feasible as often as I would like. I would prefer to escape from the liturgical wasteland more often.
You are very fortunate.
You are very fortunate.
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liturgyluver
Guest
I am lucky that it embraces a tradition of polyphonic mass settings, some of the Proper and traditional hymnody. There are many churches with great music in London, but the Catholic ones rarely include all three of those elements.
I can see why a seven hour trip isn’t always feasible, but I am sure that it provides great spiritual fulfillment.
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Cat
Guest
You don’t consider this behavior disrepectful of the priest who is allowing the music choices? You don’t consider it possible that you are missing something that the Holy Spirit wants you to hear by blocking out what the priest has pronounced “acceptable” for Mass?
It’s not a “stage.”
I suggest that you talk to “the music ministers” and get to know them. I get the feeling that you think they are “entertainers”. I’m guessing that if you would get to know them, you would discover that they are loyal and devout Catholics as much as you are.
I’m a pianist who plays at Mass, and frankly, I feel hurt by what you have said about “me.” Come get to know “me” (the musicians).
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roadsend
Guest
Short answer - no. Many of the young priests I have known unfortunately wouldn’t recognize Catholic music if they heard it and have no desire to take on the musical powers that be. I doubt the Holy Spirit is behind the pop slop and the abandonment of the musical patrimony which the Church has passed down to us through the ages.
If not a stage, what would you call the raised platform up front? It darn sure isn’t a choir loft.
Our music ministers are personally committed and hard working. I consider at least one of them a personal friend. They have been sold on this copyrighted pop slop by publishing houses which make a great deal of money from our parishes. It appears to me that just about everything they know about church music they have learned from workshops put on by these publishing houses. I have no argument with the music ministers, but I have issues with publishing houses using the Mass as a money making opportunity and I resent my church contributions going to pay these publishing houses. Christ ran the money changers out of the temple and it is about time that we followed his example on this.
I am sorry that you feel hurt by my comments. I feel hurt every time I hear music in church that makes me feel like I am at a hootnanny instead of at Mass.
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pnewton
Guest
He was God. He knew the difference between money changers in the temple and those not in the temple. Publishers do not conduct business inside a Church. The use of words like “slop” and “hootenanny” are not conducive to a contstructive discussion. A little courtesy would be appreciated. The Catholic tradition of charity procedes and supercedes any musical patrimony.
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27lw
Guest
Oh, roadsend, I 100% agree with what you are saying. Probably 95% of Catholic music directors could really use a lot of education on Catholic liturgical music.
Ironically, the term “hootenanny” was actually used in the late 1960s (in a positive way, I believe) to describe the new “folk” music character of these Masses. So I do think it’s a constructive term. I myself prefer to use the term “honky-tonk” when I hear a certain Alleluia “praise-chorus” style setting.
Ironically, the term “hootenanny” was actually used in the late 1960s (in a positive way, I believe) to describe the new “folk” music character of these Masses. So I do think it’s a constructive term. I myself prefer to use the term “honky-tonk” when I hear a certain Alleluia “praise-chorus” style setting.
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Enim
Guest
**The antiphons in the Missal **are to be sung and are officially propers: Here is the current direction from the Missal: any objection is mute.
GIRM 48. The singing at this time is done either alternately by the choir and the people or in a similar way by the cantor and the people, or entirely by the people, or by the choir alone. In the dioceses of the United States of America there are four options for the Entrance Chant: (1) the antiphon from the Roman Missal or the Psalm from the Roman Gradual as set to music there or in another musical setting; (2) the seasonal antiphon and Psalm of the Simple Gradual; (3) a song from another collection of psalms and antiphons, approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms; (4) a suitable liturgical song similarly approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop.
Yes, The old directive indicates that these antiphons are now provided in the Missal for the priest to recite when there is no one to sing them. I think it would be wrong to infer that they were forbidden from being sung.
For example: perhas the text " De profundis…" was today’s antiphon in the Gradual Romanum and the the Text “Out of the depths…” appeared in the Missal. According to some (who wish to restrict singing only to the Latin Gradual Romanum) we would be forbidden to chant the words " Out of the Depths…" yet we could legally sing “Immaculate Mary” or " Kumbya." We could also rightly sing from the Latin SImplex which does not match the gradual Romanum . Should we give pride an place to an option ( the Gradual Romanum) when the congregation cannot understand the Latin text over a vernacular translation that appears on the altar.
GIRM 48. The singing at this time is done either alternately by the choir and the people or in a similar way by the cantor and the people, or entirely by the people, or by the choir alone. In the dioceses of the United States of America there are four options for the Entrance Chant: (1) the antiphon from the Roman Missal or the Psalm from the Roman Gradual as set to music there or in another musical setting; (2) the seasonal antiphon and Psalm of the Simple Gradual; (3) a song from another collection of psalms and antiphons, approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms; (4) a suitable liturgical song similarly approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop.
Yes, The old directive indicates that these antiphons are now provided in the Missal for the priest to recite when there is no one to sing them. I think it would be wrong to infer that they were forbidden from being sung.
For example: perhas the text " De profundis…" was today’s antiphon in the Gradual Romanum and the the Text “Out of the depths…” appeared in the Missal. According to some (who wish to restrict singing only to the Latin Gradual Romanum) we would be forbidden to chant the words " Out of the Depths…" yet we could legally sing “Immaculate Mary” or " Kumbya." We could also rightly sing from the Latin SImplex which does not match the gradual Romanum . Should we give pride an place to an option ( the Gradual Romanum) when the congregation cannot understand the Latin text over a vernacular translation that appears on the altar.
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pnewton
Guest
The bishop has authority over the liturgy in his diocese. This is the absolute. Much has been made over the changes in the GIRM, but it is important to remember that nothing has changed except the English translation. There are still four options. The options are still the same. Hymns are still fine. This is not because 95% of Catholic musicians are ignorant. It is because hymns are an acceptable alternative and in much of the country they are the best alternative, according to the judgment of the bishops.
FYI - if you ever find that 95% are going a certain way in the Church, it would be good to at least consider that the Holy Spirit may be at work. I note that the majority of musicians here are not using a lot of pejoratives and negative rhetoric against the older, more traditional music. One can also see where the Holy Spirit moves by the fruit that is borne: love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness.
FYI - if you ever find that 95% are going a certain way in the Church, it would be good to at least consider that the Holy Spirit may be at work. I note that the majority of musicians here are not using a lot of pejoratives and negative rhetoric against the older, more traditional music. One can also see where the Holy Spirit moves by the fruit that is borne: love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness.
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Elizium23
Guest
Yes, pnewton: the bishop is the foremost arbiter of liturgy in his diocese, and we owe him obedience. We also owe him fraternal correction if he continues to permit sloppy liturgical music to hinder the faithful’s encounter with the Divine at every Sunday Mass. We are duty-bound to show him what an authentic interpretation of Church documents and Sacred Scripture reveals about the nature of liturgical music and our obligations. It is essentially a grass-roots effort that is needed. The people must demand a sound liturgy. It is our right as Catholics that the Mass be celebrated appropriately, and our rights are infringed when inferior music is used and promoted to the detriment of a great treasury of truly sacred pieces which have been accumulated over the centuries.
The Late Great Benedictgal has made a blog post appealing to Archbishop +Sample to make some corrections to OCP as their ordinary.
The Late Great Benedictgal has made a blog post appealing to Archbishop +Sample to make some corrections to OCP as their ordinary.
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TimothyH
Guest
It is one thing to write a nice polite letter to a bishop but quite another to form a grass roots effort to tell bishops where they have been negligent, hindered communion with God, misinterpreted not only Church documents but Sacred Scripture itself and start demanding rights.
*Can. 1373 A person who publicly incites among subjects animosities or hatred against the Apostolic See or an ordinary because of some act of power or ecclesiastical ministry or provokes subjects to disobey them is to be punished by an interdict or other just penalties.
Can. 1375 Those who impede the freedom of ministry, of election, or of ecclesiastical power or the legitimate use of sacred goods or other ecclesiastical goods or who greatly intimidate an elector, one elected, or one who exercises ecclesiastical power or ministry can be punished with a just penalty.*
Elizium, you can’t go forming groups to accuse the bishop and tell him what he is doing wrong. You really run the risk of earning yourself an interdict with this type of drama and then you won’t have to worry about music at Mass because you will be prohibited from attending.
The best that can ever be hoped by such an effort is that the Bishop will simply ignore it.
-Tim-
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Cat
Guest
I can’t even imagine writing my bishop about his “mistakes.”
He is the apostle of the Lord Jesus Christ. I’m a mere layperson, and a convert (almost ten years).
He has a special charism from the Holy Spirit that qualifies him to be an apostle. I have gifts of the Holy Spirit, but certainly not apostolic gifts.
He has years of formal education as well as years of pastoral experience. I have years of playing the piano in Protestant churches and secular settings.
I just can’t even conceive of it. I can’t believe that I would ever know more than my bishop or any bishop.
I have considered writing the bishop and asking if he would be willing to consider hearing me make a ten-minute “pitch,” as I have serious concerns about the lack of up-and-coming keyboardists in the diocese. Of all the people in the diocese, I have some unique qualifications to do this. My years of experience leading the youth music competition in this area have given me a detailed knowledge of piano teachers and their students in 12 counties (all of which are in our diocese). I have been involved in the AGO now for two years, and have been instrumental in getting our parish off the AGO blacklist. I play for Masses in several parishes.
I also have quite a few ideas of practical ways that the diocese can “grow” some children into competent organists and pianists.
But I would approach my beloved bishop with the greatest of respect and humility, fully expecting him to tell me that I am wrong and that the matter is under control. And if he was unable to see me in person–which is probably what would happen, since he has an unbelievably busy schedule–I would be thrilled to meet with any emissary that he indicated.
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Cat
Guest
When you say, “the Late Great Benedictgal,” are you saying that she has passed away?
I would challenge you about “sloppy liturgical music” that “hinders the faithful’s encounter with the Divine at every Sunday Mass.” I think this is your personal opinion, and I think, with all due respect, that your bishop will probably tell you the same thing.
I and many others are not hindered in the least by contemporary Christian music in the Mass. In fact, this style of music is much more likely to lead me to a place where I can seriously contemplate and pay homage to Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament than much of the traditional music.
Here’s one more question for you to think about. What would you do if you get your letter to your bishop, and he writes you back or calls you and tells you that you are wrong, and that you are expressing your personal opinions about music, and that you need to work on being more docile and submissive to your priest and bishop?
I hope that you would humbly accept his answer and work on the assignment that he gives you.
But I think that it’s also possible that you would think, “Harrumph. The bishop is wrong and I’m right. I can’t possibly submit to him in this matter!”
I hope not, Elizium23. But only you can answer the question.
Here’s what I’m getting at. I don’t think we should ever put ourselves in a position where we might end up with a festering spirit of resentment and rebellion over the authorities that Jesus has placed over us. This could eventually lead us to a place where we no longer trust our bishop and eventually our Church and even Jesus Himself, and we may end up walking away from it all.
I think that writing the type of letter you describe could possibly put you in that position.
I think that you need to remember what wise pnewton has said–that 95% of the bishops are fine with the “four hymns,” and that perhaps it is the Holy Spirit and not any kind of “incompetence” or poor decision-making on his part that has caused the bishop to make this decision, which is at this time fully approved by Holy Mother Church.
I hope that you would never walk this dangerous route, Elizium23. I hope you will think about what I’ve said in this thread.
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Elizium23
Guest
An interdict? Prohibited attendance at Mass? You’re joking, right. For interpreting Church documents in the light of Sacred Scripture and encouraging people to make their preferences known to the bishop? Who exactly is going to impose an inderdict on me, and for what canon? I sincerely doubt it will be my bishop, who has published a four-part series on sacred music, the importance of plainchant and the significance of the proper antiphons. Many of the things I have said in this thread and others have been in lock-step support of my own bishop.
For crying out loud. I would imagine, no, I would guarantee, that a lot of priests who try to add tiny bits of Latin, chant, organ, or polyphony to the Mass generate TONS of complaint mail to his ordinary. I read the testimony of a priest recently (I can’t remember where - Fr. Z’s blog) who said that he made tiny changes, and putting the Kyrie in Greek started “World War III”. So why can’t the bishop hear from the other side? Why can’t we make our preferences known? By all means, write words of praise on behalf of that priest who puts the Kyrie in Greek. Write a recommendation letter for a pastor who implements more chant, organ, or polyphony in the liturgy. Be positive and charitable. But if we run into the opposite, why should we be quiet about it?
Honestly, Pope Francis told us to make a mess. Redemptionis Sacramentum is law and guarantees us an abuse-free liturgy. It also guarantees us the right to make our voices heard. Poor music is an insult to right liturgy. It is like tying a millstone around the neck of the priest as he celebrates. He can be as reverent as he wants and say the black, do the red, but bad music can just drag it down.
It is a deeply ingrained abuse that has become acceptable. The biological solution is beginning to work here, but we can do more to expose young people to truly great sacred music, we can do more to educate people in the fine arts. We can offer them a good alternative to what has passed for music in the last 50 years. The Roman Rite has so much more to offer. And so much of it can be had for less money and unencumbered by restrictive copyright and licensing agreements. That is merely the icing on the cake. Pastors should be made aware of the alternatives. We can’t wait for them to cast around and find out for themselves. Liberals know how to be the squeaky wheel, strident and disobedient. Let’s prove that we can squeak much better than they can, in charity and obedience.
For crying out loud. I would imagine, no, I would guarantee, that a lot of priests who try to add tiny bits of Latin, chant, organ, or polyphony to the Mass generate TONS of complaint mail to his ordinary. I read the testimony of a priest recently (I can’t remember where - Fr. Z’s blog) who said that he made tiny changes, and putting the Kyrie in Greek started “World War III”. So why can’t the bishop hear from the other side? Why can’t we make our preferences known? By all means, write words of praise on behalf of that priest who puts the Kyrie in Greek. Write a recommendation letter for a pastor who implements more chant, organ, or polyphony in the liturgy. Be positive and charitable. But if we run into the opposite, why should we be quiet about it?
Honestly, Pope Francis told us to make a mess. Redemptionis Sacramentum is law and guarantees us an abuse-free liturgy. It also guarantees us the right to make our voices heard. Poor music is an insult to right liturgy. It is like tying a millstone around the neck of the priest as he celebrates. He can be as reverent as he wants and say the black, do the red, but bad music can just drag it down.
It is a deeply ingrained abuse that has become acceptable. The biological solution is beginning to work here, but we can do more to expose young people to truly great sacred music, we can do more to educate people in the fine arts. We can offer them a good alternative to what has passed for music in the last 50 years. The Roman Rite has so much more to offer. And so much of it can be had for less money and unencumbered by restrictive copyright and licensing agreements. That is merely the icing on the cake. Pastors should be made aware of the alternatives. We can’t wait for them to cast around and find out for themselves. Liberals know how to be the squeaky wheel, strident and disobedient. Let’s prove that we can squeak much better than they can, in charity and obedience.
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felsguy
Guest
When you do this, get back to us please and let us know how that worked out.
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Cat
Guest
Again, “poor” music is your opinion and the opinion of your friends and associates . I think many well-educated and devout Catholics would disagree with your opinions about which music is “poor.”
I’m sure many pastors ARE aware of the alternatives to hymns. But if they don’t have the musicians, or the money in the budget to pay the musicians, then what are they to do with those alternatives?!
They can’t just say, “OK, everyone, sing those chants now,” or “OK, pianists, play that organ now.”I think that those who wish to hear one of the other alternatives to the “Four Hymn” Mass would be well-advised to do fundraising among themselves and approach the priest and/or bishop with a sizable amount of money that can be used to pay for a trained musician who can educate the congregation/diocese about various traditional forms of Catholic music, and/or a competent organist.
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