The Divine Liturgy

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nordskoven:
What an extraordinary poll. No option for simply stating, “Yes, I have attended a Byzantine liturgy.” Why the judgments on liking or disliking? This is pure cafeteria Catholic, soliciting reviews of how the patrons liked the show.

I have attended a Byzantine liturgy, and being a Roman Rite Catholic, only with permission did I receive Communion by intinction (dipping Bread into Wine). This is the last place a church-hopping “rad trad” cultural Catholic needs to shop for smells and bells because Roman Rite Catholics may not receive Communion by intinction without permission.

Because of the stunning gilt architecture and powerful iconography, Byzantine Rite Catholics have long had a tourist problem. Don’t be part of it.
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Well, I for one wasn’t shopping! I went because I was curious about this church that belonged to a “sister rite,” if it may be termed as such. They welcomed us, and from what I’ve read on this site, they always welcome us to their services, since we’re all a part of One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church. We’re always told that we’re welcome to rec. Holy Communion, so I’ve no idea why you felt the need to rec. permission. As for intinction, we aren’t allowed to self-intinct, I don’t have to have permission from a priest who chooses to distribute the Species by that mode. The Carmelite community that rec. me into the Church always uses this mode.
 
Then you should know that the usage “Nestorian” in reference to either the Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East or the Catholicosate of the East/Patriarchate of Baghdad is considered inappropriate and derogatory
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Why is why I put the words in quotations, thus indicating some king od qualifiers. I don’t know any other adjectival term or phrase used to describe those Christians who belong to this Communion.

When referring to the schismatic Church itself I use the phrase “Assyrian Church of the East,” when referring to indiviuals, I use the phrase “Nestorian” with the quotation marks; I know of no other commonly accepted usage.

This is the usage Stepehen Mofat usage in his own masterly and authoritative study A History of Christianity in Asia. I don’t know Moffat’s religion, but he’s very sympathetic of “Nestorian” Christianity.
 
Do forgive my numerous misspellings. I must’ve been drowsed-up from all the turkey I had earlier . . .
 
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nordskoven:
Roman Rite Catholics may not receive Communion by intinction without permission.
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There are NO restrictions on a Roman Catholic recieving the Eucharist by intinction.

There ARE restrictions on who DO the Intinction (only a Bishop, Priest or Deacon) but there are NO restrictions on the reception of both species of the Eucharist through intinction by anyone who might otherwise lawfully and in good conscience recieve the Eucharist.
Because of the stunning gilt architecture and powerful iconography, Byzantine Rite Catholics have long had a tourist problem. Don’t be part of it.
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St. Peter’s in Rome, Notre Dame du Paris and the National Basicilla in Wash DC are also tourist destinations, does that mean I shouldn’t go to Mass there??
 
I love to attend the Divine Liturgy. Since I have a UGCC parish near my house, I have two daily opportunities for a Divine Liturgy! Also I have attended Vespers in Ukrainian. They were beautiful Vepsers, and i understood some of it*, but sadly I was the only layman there! There were 9 priests and monks there besides me.

Also, does any Greek Catholic here know why this parish’s Englsih Liturgies were not sung?*
 
I
have attended a Byzantine liturgy, and being a Roman Rite Catholic, only with permission did I receive Communion by intinction (dipping Bread into Wine).
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What are you talking about? No such permission is necessary.

And even if it were, it wouldn’t apply to you while you were attending a Byzantine liturgy anyway. When in Rome . . .
Because of the stunning gilt architecture and powerful iconography, Byzantine Rite Catholics have long had a tourist problem. Don’t be part of it.
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I’d have to niminate this comment for the honor of “most asinine” to ever appear on this board. Wasn’t there a thread started on these?
Also, does any Greek Catholic here know why this parish’s Englsih Liturgies were not sung?
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The same reason you find liturgical belly-dancers in Latin-Rite parishes, and why so many Latin priests themselves refuse to ever sing the Mass. It’s an abuse; this particular one is fairly common among Ukranian Catholics in this country. This type of liturgy is commonly called a “Read Mass.” (Yes, they actually use the word “Mass,” though I don’t this this terminology is official.)

Though I am proud to say that this doesn’t apply to the Ukranian parish down here in Miami. Here, the liturgy is sung, and very beautifully.
 
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DominvsVobiscvm:
I

What are you talking about? No such permission is necessary.

And even if it were, it wouldn’t apply to you while you were attending a Byzantine liturgy anyway. When in Rome . . .

I’d have to niminate this comment for the honor of “most asinine” to ever appear on this board. Wasn’t there a thread started on these?

The same reason you find liturgical belly-dancers in Latin-Rite parishes, and why so many Latin priests themselves refuse to ever sing the Mass. It’s an abuse; this particular one is fairly common among Ukranian Catholics in this country. This type of liturgy is commonly called a “Read Mass.” (Yes, they actually use the word “Mass,” though I don’t this this terminology is official.)

Though I am proud to say that this doesn’t apply to the Ukranian parish down here in Miami. Here, the liturgy is sung, and very beautifully.
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Oh the Liturgy is sung, even the daily liturgy,but in Ukrainian
 
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DominvsVobiscvm:
Didn’t you just say it wasn’t sung?!
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The Ukrainian Liturgies were sung,about13/15 per week of the liturgies are in Ukrainian and the 2 liturgies in english aren’t sung
 
I have noticed the same phenomena around Chicago.

The Ruthenians in North America have made it a priority to chant/sing the entire liturgy in English.

The Ukrainians sing (chant) their Ukrainian liturgy but usually don’t attempt it in English. I cannot explain why but some people have blamed it on the Basilians (some Ukrainians blame everything on the Basilians! :D). I have a theory of my own.

The Carpatho-Rusyns (Ruthenians from Hungary) came to North America in large numbers in the late 19th century, as did the Galicians (Ukrainian territories in Austria). The liturgical language for both was Slavonic.

The Ukrainians were more numerous and continued to migrate in waves over the next 120 years, however the Ruthenians did not see large numbers migrate after the early 20th century. The Ruthenians as a community began to assimilate into the predominantly English-speaking population while the Ukrainians received new infusions of people from the old country. Both churches were using church Slavonic then.

At the time of Vatican II the Ukrainian Greek Catholic church was illegal in the Soviet Union and technically non-existant. The diaspora communities were in North America with a few smaller ones in places such as Brazil, Britain and Australia. They viewed their own tradition as vulnerable to extinction and it figured as an element in their own national identity and aspirations for a free homeland.

Vat II provided the impetus for the Eastern churches to restore their traditions but also encouraged the vernacular. The Ruthenians put their liturgy into English and worked very hard to maintain the musical-lyrical qualities of the chanted Liturgy. The Ukrainians did the likewise for the Ukrainian language, although outside Ukraine proper.

It seems to me that in the process the Ukrainians did not see an English (or Portuguese) liturgy as a high priority, and only introduced English as a means to serve some of the fourth and fifth generation Ukrainians whose families had migrated early. These recited English liturgies are not well attended around Chicago.

Personally, I find recited liturgies to be insufferable, they definately discourage inquirers.
 
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Hesychios:
I have noticed the same phenomena around Chicago.

The Ruthenians in North America have made it a priority to chant/sing the entire liturgy in English.

The Ukrainians sing (chant) their Ukrainian liturgy but usually don’t attempt it in English. I cannot explain why but some people have blamed it on the Basilians (some Ukrainians blame everything on the Basilians! :D). I have a theory of my own.

The Carpatho-Rusyns (Ruthenians from Hungary) came to North America in large numbers in the late 19th century, as did the Galicians (Ukrainian territories in Austria). The liturgical language for both was Slavonic.

The Ukrainians were more numerous and continued to migrate in waves over the next 120 years, however the Ruthenians did not see large numbers migrate after the early 20th century. The Ruthenians as a community began to assimilate into the predominantly English-speaking population while the Ukrainians received new infusions of people from the old country. Both churches were using church Slavonic then.

At the time of Vatican II the Ukrainian Greek Catholic church was illegal in the Soviet Union and technically non-existant. The diaspora communities were in North America with a few smaller ones in places such as Brazil, Britain and Australia. They viewed their own tradition as vulnerable to extinction and it figured as an element in their own national identity and aspirations for a free homeland.

Vat II provided the impetus for the Eastern churches to restore their traditions but also encouraged the vernacular. The Ruthenians put their liturgy into English and worked very hard to maintain the musical-lyrical qualities of the chanted Liturgy. The Ukrainians did the likewise for the Ukrainian language, although outside Ukraine proper.

It seems to me that in the process the Ukrainians did not see an English (or Portuguese) liturgy as a high priority, and only introduced English as a means to serve some of the fourth and fifth generation Ukrainians whose families had migrated early. These recited English liturgies are not well attended around Chicago.

Personally, I find recited liturgies to be insufferable, they definately discourage inquirers.
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Yes these priests are Basilians[not Brasiallians!,well i think the pastor is]. Also the english liturgies aren’t well attended either. After 3-4 english liturgies I switched to Ukrainian only. Immaculate Conception parish-monastery has only about one english profigient priest. The 3 other ones could barely speak Ukrainian or spoke english poorly.
 
The Order of Saint Basil was created out of a collection of monastic houses in what would now be Belarus and Ukraine. Traditionally monastic houses in the Byzantine-Rus churches would be directly controlled by the local bishop and the concept of a religious order is not native.

The order was “reformed” under the Jesuits and became a more active, rather than contemplative organization, so their formation was Western in outlook. Until very recently their actions have been thought to reflect a great deal of their late 19th century past under the Jesuits. I suppose that this is changing.

I know that there is a healthy Ukrainian Catholic community in Brazil so I mentioned them, and there are some other places (like Italy, Austria and the Czech Republic) where Ukrainian Catholics have been settling. My hunch is that Ukrainians are not making an extra effort to produce liturgies in the local languages, and English is one of many such local languages. 🙂
 
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lovelavender:
I never went to one (Divine Liturgy). When I was visiting Quebec City, there was a Ukrainian Catholic Church near our hotel. I wasn’t sure what that was, so I didn’t go to church there. Is that a branch of Eastern Orthodox?
When I learned a little about Orthodox Church, I was curious to go to a Divine Liturgy someday to see what it was like, and if it was very similar or different from Mass. I’m kind of under the impression that Roman Catholics aren’t supposed to attend, according to Eastern Orthodox rules. I wouldn’t want to be disrespectful to their wishes.
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They don’t have a problem with you attending, but they do not want you to receive Communion (although it is valid). Eastern Rite Catholics have no problem whatsoever with you receiving Communion (and it, too, is valid).
 
Eastern Rite Catholics have no problem whatsoever with you receiving Communion (and it, too, is valid).
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They have no problem because they are 100% Catholic. You can visit ANY Eastern Rite Catholic Church whether it is the Ethiopian Ge-ez Rite or the Russian Rite and receive all of the Sacraments. There is NO limitations just drop by and if you don’t have a motal sin go up and receive the Body and Blood of Christ. If you want to go to confession then tell the priest. If you are a Catholic you can visit ANY of these Churches: crosslink.net/~hrycak/ch_indx-s.html

In fact, you have duty to know something about the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church. So, if you are traveling or you have a Church nearby and it says whatever … Catholic Church stop by and go to Liturgy (Mass). This will fullfill your Sunday Obligation.

Since many people go to Disney World in Florida for Vacation why not visit this Church for Sunday Mass:
byzantines.net/StNicholas-Orlando/main.htm

If you are going to Washington DC why not visit an Ethiopian Catholic Church:
catholic-forum.com/churches/kidanemehret/
(ps. they can use your help many of the members send money back home to survive and they are a poor Church)

Learn more read from the Vatican:
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_orientalium-ecclesiarum_en.html

Or go here:
byzantines.net/about/
or here:
byzcath.org/
 
I have attended a Ukrainian Divine liturgy requiem. I thought it was interesting, but at points I really didn’t understand what was coming down, although I did my best to explain it afterwards to my Baptist supervisor afterwards who I attended it with.

I’m appreciative of all religious traditions, including the eastern rite, but it seems a lot out of the ordinary to me, and I couldn’t see attending on a regular Sunday.
 
In fact, you have duty to know something about the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church.
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You’d be suprised to know how many Catholics don’t. At work, one of the women was unsure of what religion she was, although she knew that she was baptized at the “historical landmark” St. John the Baptist Ukr. Catholic church close to her grandfather’s old home.

One of the other workers, a CCD teacher no less, made the assessment that she was eastern orthodox.
 
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