The divine soap opera

[JDaniel]

So far completely agreed. “Things” are neither good, nor evil. They may be beneficial (good), or harmful (bad) or neutral.

Here you go in circles. You define “good” as not “evil” and then you define “evil” as not “good”. Nice, little merry-go-round.

(I thought you might like that! ) Sorry, I know that’s far too simplistic. But, what is left when good is no longer present, in my opinion, is evil-ness

You have to stop and define one of them in absolute terms, before you can negate it. And you should not forget the “in-between” either. Some things are neutral. The world is not black and white.

OK: Goodness is: God, sans all of the trappings that we conjure up about him when we look at the world through our eyes. This is probably not very satisfactory. Give me a little time and I’ll do a better definition. And, you are right about the gray areas. Thanks.

I also agree that only a moral agent can be “morally good” or “evil”. These words are not applicable to inanimate “things”, or living creatures which are not moral agents.

True. Now, how do we think said “moral agents” get to be “evil agents?” By a willing suspension of their alignment with goodness, perhaps? I assess myself, at times, and recognize no evil, for the most part, yet, he lets me bungle things occasionally. Later, when I reflect on that bungle, I am sorry and wish I could recover it, take it back. But, the darn thing moves, it seems, faster than light! It finds its mark and devastates. I have gotten much better recently about not bungling. (I hope!)

God bless,
jd

 

[Spock]

My apologies for how that sounded. It was actually a conclusion derived from many areas of Scripture. Our souls are far more important than this life. Attaining the Beatific Vision is far more important than this life. He lowered the number of years that men and women lived, not to merely increase the number of living things on earth, but, rather to increase the number of potential souls that would come to him. In my opinion. Besides, the emphasis, regarding this life, is on our actions, how we live it.

I understand, but even if this life is of “lesser” importance, that does not make it “trivial”, and of “no importance whatsoever”. Also you have only your strong belief and conviction that there is an “afterlife”, but no actual proof, which you could share with me. I do not have it. As far as I am concerned, this life is “all there is”. So the argument based on “afterlife” is unconvincing (to say the least).

Many have given their thoughts, in these forums. There’s not much more that I can tell you that hasn’t already been said.

I know. My point is that none of those were convincing, none were rational.

No matter what, I regard you as a great friend. I am here to watch your back. You put me in mind of de Beauvoir. You are metaphysical without being religious. A rare quality. I think Rossum exhibits some of it too. I’m sorry, I capitalize names out of respect. Unless this keyboard permits me to blunder! (I know Rossum uses “rossum” for his username.)

God bless you and I hope you and your family had a nice holiday,
jd

Thank you very much, and I want to reciprocate it. I recall the opinion of my late step-father-in-law (what a complicated word!) who used to say: “every day is Christmas”. He meant that we should love each other as if it were Christmas. Pretty wise view, don’t you think? cheers!

 

[LilyM]

My goodnes, are you really that naive? Have you never heard of clever and convincing con-artists duping old ladies to to give their last pennies to support a bogus endeavor? They act on false information, they freely choose to do what leads to their own destruction. Do you blame them? And not the one who fed them false information? Get real, buddy!

You see God and the Devil in this light? Let’s take one example - the Garden of Eden. God provided Adam and Eve with all the correct information they needed to make the right decision. He told them the correct consequences of eating of the tree.

Out pops the Devil. Sure, he paints a different picture, but

a) they know differently already, having been told so by the one they can trust to tell them the truth, the one who created them out of nothing out of pure love. What are they doing even listening to anyone else? Furthermore

b) what the Devil tells them is right enough rather than completely false, but deceptive nonetheless. In eating the fruit they DO learn to know good from evil as promised, however the knowledge doesn’t bring the fringe benefit that Satan implies of making them powerful enough to be independent of God. They hear what they want to hear and deceive themselves.

To me Adam and Eve are like your classic greedy investor looking for an investment that promises huge gains in the short term, and who grasps at something that is on the face of it too good to be true - a sensible person knows that seeking to get rich quick is a sure path to ruin and won’t touch it with a bargepole.

 

[Spock]

You see God and the Devil in this light? Let’s take one example - the Garden of Eden. God provided Adam and Eve with all the correct information they needed to make the right decision. He told them the correct consequences of eating of the tree.

Out pops the Devil. Sure, he paints a different picture, but

a) they know differently already, having been told so by the one they can trust to tell them the truth, the one who created them out of nothing out of pure love. What are they doing even listening to anyone else? Furthermore

b) what the Devil tells them is right enough rather than completely false, but deceptive nonetheless. In eating the fruit they DO learn to know good from evil as promised, however the knowledge doesn’t bring the fringe benefit that Satan implies of making them powerful enough to be independent of God. They hear what they want to hear and deceive themselves.

To me Adam and Eve are like your classic greedy investor looking for an investment that promises huge gains in the short term, and who grasps at something that is on the face of it too good to be true - a sensible person knows that seeking to get rich quick is a sure path to ruin and won’t touch it with a bargepole.

Interesting analysis. But you know that short term goals do not always turn to be incorrect, and do not always lead to ruin. You seem to diminish the responsibility of the “deceiver” and increase the responsibilty of the “deceived”. You paint the deception to be easy to “see through”. As a matter of fact, God was not telling the truth. He said that “if you eat from the fruit, on that day you will surely die”. On that day they did not die (and please do not try to refer to some nebulous “spiritual” death). Also according to the story, death was not present in the Garden, it was introduced by the act, so the very word “death” was meaningless to them.

Nevertheless if we take the story literal, it raises a few questions. Why did God command them not to eat from the tree? What is wrong about knowing good from evil? That was the act which turned them into moral agents. If one does not know good from evil, then they are not morally responsible for their acts. (A cat is not a moral agent, so when a cat “plays” with a mouse, it is not a morally reprehensible act.) If it is not desired that they should eat from the tree, why did God present them with the opportunity? Why not protect the tree? And the ultimate question: “why did God create the Devil”? What is so “good” about having the evil personified? No sensible creator would knowingly create something that is detrimental to his creation.

This is the main question. The whole story depicts God as an irrational creator. How can you reconcile a omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent creator with such irrational behavior?

 

[JDaniel]

I understand, but even if this life is of “lesser” importance, that does not make it “trivial”, and of “no importance whatsoever”. Also you have only your strong belief and conviction that there is an “afterlife”, but no actual proof, which you could share with me. I do not have it. As far as I am concerned, this life is “all there is”. So the argument based on “afterlife” is unconvincing (to say the least).

There is some truth in what you say. There is, as well, some truth in what I say. There is another law of the universe and that is, that there is some truth in every opinion, or statement, or concept. You say that there is no “afterlife,” and there is truth to that statement because you have not seen empirical evidence, or inductive evidence. I say that there is an “afterlife” which I deduce from the inductive proof of God’s existence. Science is really nothing more than dialectical induction. Metaphysics is no different. There is as much truth in my concept of the universe as in yours. The question is, how do we find it?

I know. My point is that none of those were convincing, none were rational.

Yes, I know.

Thank you very much, and I want to reciprocate it. I recall the opinion of my late step-father-in-law (what a complicated word!) who used to say: “every day is Christmas”. He meant that we should love each other as if it were Christmas. Pretty wise view, don’t you think? cheers!

Yes I do.

God bless,
jd

 

[david_friol_1]

Hey Spock

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Of course I refer to the alleged “war” between God and the Devil. It is maintained by the theists that the devil is a very powerful adversary, and it is hell-bent (pardon the pun) to destroy all the good and noble that God values. God is much more powerful, however, and if he so decided, he could destroy the evil forces at will. Yet, he does not do it.

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I have often wondered myself why God just doesn’t destroy the Devil and the rest of his crew now. Why wait? But to be honest with you it really doesn’t matter to me anymore whether he does it now or later. In fact, now having overcome many difficulties and reflecting back I am truly glad that he allowed me to struggle the way I did because I see that it actually made me stonger. And not only that but it also helped me recognize God’s wonderful grace in my life more readily.

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The whole situation goes along the script of a mediocre soap-opera, or a lousy western. The “good guy” always allows the “bad guy” to slip away, and continue his evil activities. At the end the good guy wins, but until that point the bad guy committed all sorts of murders, mayhem and atrocities. Naturally, in a soap opera this script is necessary, otherwise there would be no continuation. And “the show must go on!”. However, this is simple-minded entertainment, not real life.

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I always wanted to be in a western and thanks to you I can remember that I am.

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Also according to the theists God “loves” us like his children. Yet he allows the arch-evil to continue to prey upon us; to drag us down, to dupe us, to decieve us. It is alleged that the devil is much more powerful than us, is very deceptive, and can deceive the humans to turn against God. Yet, the enemy is allowed to roam free, and the “duped” humans are punished (with eternal damnation) for succumbing to the ruse. Is that “love”?

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God, I would say, loves us because we truly are his children, adopted in Baptism into Christ Jesus. Oops! sorry for the violation of the Spock principle! I think God too loves a good western and he is encouraging us every step of the way. Go! Spock! Go! You can do it! You can trust in me if you want to! Just do it! Spock!..Spock!..Spock!..Spock!..

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If you would be aware of a pusher in your neighborhood, who wishes to turn your children into drug-addicts, would you just stand on the side and allow him to do it?

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No! I hope and try to model God as best I can in raising my daughter(Veronica Su Su), whom we just adopted from China this past July, and give her all the tools to recognize good from bad and to choose the good, knowing that there will be times when she doesn’t. In which case I will do my best to be there for her when she needs me and/or calls me for help.

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The usual cop-out does not works here. In all the cases there is a lame excuse, saying that “maybe” the intervention would be somehow worse, it appeals to our “ignorance” and asserts that we are not in the position to make a judgment. Not in this case. It would be totally illogical to say that removing the devil would somehow make the situation “worse”.

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Speculation never gets us any where Spock. Life is here whether we like it or not. On one hand we could say “what if…” but on the other I say as always “who cares about what if’s…”. I have found it much more practical to seek to understand the way things are and adapt to it right now rather that fly off the handle because I don’t like it this way.

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To sum it up with another lousy pun: “because of your assertion of the God-Devil war - your credibility is now shot to hell”.

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It is a cute pun but I never understood God to be at war with the Devil. To violate once again the handy dandy Spock principle, the Scriptures tell us that we are at war with the world, the flesh and the Devil but not God and the Devil. I think the closest thing to that in the Scriptures between the Devil and God is that the Devil is opposed to God not to mention it would not be much of a war. So, if your assertion of the assertion of the God-Devil war is in fact blank then what does that say about your credibility?

God bless you Spock as always and I hope you success in all you searching!