The divinity of Mary

[SecretGarden]

I’ve struggled alot with the question of who exactly Mary is. I am from the Pentecostal church and so I understand your struggles.

There are two books I recommend that you read:
“Mary: A Catholic-Evangelical Debate” by Dwight Longenecker, David Gustafson this one will give you both sides of the debate so that you can understand the different ideas and make your own decision.
"Hail, Holy Queen: The Mother of God in the Word of God by Scott Hahn

Good luck,
SG

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Thak you all for your answers. It has been very helpful. My boyfriend did not tell me that Mary is divine. I guess it was just amisunderstanding of Catholic beliefs on my own part. A misunderstanding that a lot other Non-Catholics have as well.

One more question: Does the Catholic church believe that Mary sinned? From my understanding (maybe I’m wrong) The church says she did not sin. However, according to Romans 3:23 “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”

No Mary was without sin. Did Christ sin? I mean romans says all have sined. Of course Christ did not sins. God protected Mary from original sin. And she choose to follow God completely and remaind free from sin.

 

[Della]

Thak you all for your answers. It has been very helpful. My boyfriend did not tell me that Mary is divine. I guess it was just amisunderstanding of Catholic beliefs on my own part. A misunderstanding that a lot other Non-Catholics have as well.

A sad reality, isn’t it? When I was Pentecostal, hundreds of years ago as it seems, we believed that Catholics put Mary on par with Jesus, but even we didn’t think Catholics believed she was divine. It’s bad that this strange idea has crept into some Protestants’ thinking, and odd too considering the Church has never taught such a thing.

One more question: Does the Catholic church believe that Mary sinned? From my understanding (maybe I’m wrong) The church says she did not sin. However, according to Romans 3:23 “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”

When verses are taken out of context they can be made to mean anything. St. Paul was addressing the fact that the Jews were sinners just like the Gentiles. He wasn’t talking about Mary in that passage. Besides, if he had meant “all” to be absolute, then he would have been saying that Jesus was a sinner because Jesus was as much a human being as he was divine. We know that’s not the case.

What the Church teaches is that everyone is born with original sin, which is the result of the fall. This sin is not personal sin, but rather the stain of sin, the wound of sin, and the inability to not sin by us all. In Mary’s case God preserved her from this sin from her conception. God did this for her because she was to be the pure vessel through whom the Christ would be born, taking her flesh as his flesh for Jesus Incarnation was truly God taking human flesh from Mary. Jesus’ redemptive act of dying on the cross was applied to her before Jesus’ birth. God could do this because his grace is not limited by time–it’s why the people of the OT looked forward to their redemption by the Messiah. If the fruits of Jesus’ redemption were limited by time, the people of the OT could not have been saved, nor us, either, but only those alive at the time.

Mary’s sinlessness wasn’t granted her for her sake alone, but for the reasons I have stated and to prove that what God has promised will come true for all of us. God, in Christ, can make us perfect, as he is perfect, just as Jesus commanded we become: “Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect”. Mary shows that it is possible. She also shows that God will take us to himself and glorify our mortal bodies just as he did for Mary. It could be claimed that of course Jesus was glorified since he was divine, but in glorifying Mary’s mortal body and taking her to heaven God proved that all human beings who will be saved will have the same destiny.

I know this is a lot to take in. But, you see, Catholic teaching is interwoven and of a piece. One part of it can’t be negated or denied while accepting other parts. All the teachings about Mary tell us something wonderful about Jesus and God’s promises to us. None of them are meant to make Mary into some kind of goddesses, any more than any of us will be gods or goddesses in heaven. But, we will be perfected in Christ, and enjoy the vision of God for all eternity because of all the things God did for us in Mary’s life since she said yes to God and gave us Christ, mending Eve’s no to God that brought about sin and death.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Thak you all for your answers. It has been very helpful. My boyfriend did not tell me that Mary is divine. I guess it was just amisunderstanding of Catholic beliefs on my own part. A misunderstanding that a lot other Non-Catholics have as well.

One more question: Does the Catholic church believe that Mary sinned? From my understanding (maybe I’m wrong) The church says she did not sin. However, according to Romans 3:23 “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”

Right. She did not sin. Romans 3:23 is actually referring back to Psalm 14. If you read that psalm, though, you see that ‘all’ is not really ‘all’, because the psalm goes on, speaking of those people of the Lord WHOM these ‘all’ are ‘eating up as bread’, and that the Lord will help those people. So the ‘good people’ (the ones the ‘all’ are persecuting) obviously aren’t part of the ‘all’ (who have ‘sinned’), right?

I mean, let’s think about a newborn baby. What personal sin has that baby done? What about a child with Down syndrome, profoundly mentally challenged. What sin has that child done? So ‘all’ doesn’t mean ‘all’ even here because there are people who are born who cannot, personally, sin because they don’t have the intellectual ability to understand right and wrong. People in the time of St. Paul might not have understood about the brain, or Down syndrome, but they were able to understand that using a literary device or a phrase of hyperbole (something the Jewish people used masterfully throughout the entire Scripture) did not have to literally mean that. Jesus never believed He was a vine, and He certainly did not mean that the kingdom of heaven is going to be a plant --a mustard seed that has grown into a large 'tree!–likewise use of words like ‘no one’ or ‘everyone’ don’t necessarily mean no, nobody ever, or ‘every single person ever, everywhere.’

And just because Mary did not sin does not make her somehow ‘inhuman’. After all, once we are baptized, we likewise are in a state of perfection. We may have the inclination to sin, but we do not have to give in to it. Mary did not have it ‘easy’. After all, Eve was created without sin too. . .but EVE SINNED. Mary ‘could have sinned’ just as Eve did. . .but she didn’t.

Therefore, all of us as humans have the capacity to refuse sin (like Mary) rather than embrace it (like Eve). So Mary is actually more of an example to humanity than ever, not because she is ‘greater’ than we by being ‘different’, but because she acts the way that we SHOULD act. Instead of trying to bring Mary ‘down’ because we falsely think the Church makes her ‘better’, we should be trying to make ourselves better by following Mary’s example of humility and obedience in choosing always to follow Christ. We should be trying to elevate ourselves in following Jesus, not trying to slam others down so we can feel superior to them.

 

[FromTheAshes777]

another little tidbit that really helped me understand Mary’s role is how she plays a part in the New Covenant

When humans first walked the Earth as we do now, there were two people that were without sin: Adam and Eve.

We know that because of what happened in the garden Adam and Eve both fell into sin, and all human beings from then on were born with a original sin on their souls, inherited from our first parents.

In the New Covenant, we see Christ fullfilling the role in mankind that Adam failed at. He was and is without sin of any kind. Jesus is the new Adam, and through Him mankind can be redeemed because of His perfection and His holy sacrifice on Calvary.

Who is the new Eve? Who fullfills her role in the New Covenant?

As I said this in no way makes Mary divine, she is still just a creature, but her special role as the new Eve is another big reason why we honor and venerate her.

She was saved by Christ’s sacrifice just as we all can be, only in a very special and unique way before her conception. We call this the “immaculate conception”. That is why Mary was without sin, not because she is equal with Christ, but because of Christ.

 

[Caminante]

Thak you all for your answers. It has been very helpful. My boyfriend did not tell me that Mary is divine. I guess it was just amisunderstanding of Catholic beliefs on my own part. A misunderstanding that a lot other Non-Catholics have as well.

One more question: Does the Catholic church believe that Mary sinned? From my understanding (maybe I’m wrong) The church says she did not sin. However, according to Romans 3:23 “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.”

Catalina,

I have been thinking about your search for truth which indeed it is.

From the Catholic perspective, the fact that you were baptized Catholic, you soul was indelibly marked/strengthened by the Holy Spirit and you received the seven gifts of the Holy Spirit, most of all faith (plus understanding), which leads me to believe that you have been given a call from God to come back home to the Catholic Church. At Baptism, you soul was cleansed of Original Sin, and it was filled with Sanctifying Grace as it is with every confession we make during our lives. On the other hand, there is Actual Grace that God gives us that we might perform some good thing that we don’t have the strength to do on our own, It might be some simple act of compassion, or actual grace may be the reason you brought yourself to open this thread. Do you think you met your boy friend by accident? God has a plan for our lives before he even creates our soul at the time we are conceived.

*Jeremias (Jeremiah) 1:5
Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.
*
God is talking about Jeremiah in this passage but in view of the fact that we the laity are even yet a royal priesthood, though it is not of the infinitely greater ministerial priesthood of ordained priests, we are by virtue of our baptism, missionaries with a prophetic role.
It seems that your boy friend is actively fulfilling the role his baptism (and also Confirmation) have prepared/strengthened him to do.

Because of your age and what happened at three years old those gift were not nurtured in the manner in which they should have through no fault of your own, but they must not have been inactive else you would not have had the faith walk you have been and are now on.

It was through prayers (54 day Rosary Novena) to Mary to intercede for both myself and my wife of 55 years that we met at all. Too many things happened for them to be coincidences. Have you ever asked you own mother to obtain something for you from your own father? She can only ASK her Son and ultimately He is the one who grants
the favor asked. I can honestly say that I have two mothers, one biological and one spiritual (Jewish no less). In biblical terms we are all her offspring (see Genesis and Revelation)

Remember, the Bible doesn’t explicitly refer to specific doctrines, they have developed out of careful study of not only Scripture but also Sacred Tradition over the past 2000 years. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception was only proclaimed in 1854 by Pope Pius IX. The Church is extremely careful about what is a particular matter of belief.

God Bless…

Caminante

 

[zz912]

One thing to just be very clear about, in case you read something in a book. Mary, like all the saints, and hopefully us as well, participate in the divine life just as Scripture says. It is a participation, Mary does not create or hold the divine life on her own.

 

[InspiritCarol]

In my prayer life, I never went to Mary and avoided her. One day I asked God to reveal Mary to me, asked Jesus to show me his mother and reveal to me why she was so important.

For me, avoiding Mary was a trap of the devil. It wasn’t until I willingly asked God to reveal the importance of Mary to me that things started to happen. The next week an article about consecration to Mary came in a magazine I subscribe to. Things like that started hapening. I remember picking up a random Christian radio station late one night driving through the back-country of South Carolina. The host was explaining about hyperdulia and veneration offered to Mary and how many Protestants not only ignore Mary to their own detriment, but how many could even learn a lesson from Catholics. From a Protestant radio station!

My point is, rather than avoiding Mary, why not invite her in into your spiritual life by way of her son?

Mary, I hardly know you.
If everything the Church says about you is true then I wish to know you more.
Lord Jesus Christ, please reveal your mother to me.
Please teach me about her and introduce her to me.
Amen.

That was my prayer.

-Tim-

Yes, Tim, I did suggest that. Thank you for being more emphatic. Whether it’s the Devil or just our own hang-ups, people should never feel forced to turn to Mary.

 

[Della]

Remember, the Bible doesn’t explicitly refer to specific doctrines, they have developed out of careful study of not only Scripture but also Sacred Tradition over the past 2000 years. The dogma of the Immaculate Conception was only proclaimed in 1854 by Pope Pius IX. The Church is extremely careful about what is a particular matter of belief.

God Bless…

Caminante

Right. I think we also need to say that although some dogmas, such as the Immaculate Conception. have been defined later in time, they were believed true from the very beginning. Some doctrines have been/are debated by theologians–in order to come to the whole truth about them. The Immaculate Conception was one of these. The matter was settled, once and for all, by Pope Pius IX in 1854. Four years later, at Lourdes, Our Lady confirmed this dogma herself when she told St. Marie Bernard (Bernadette) she was the Immaculate Conception. The Church finds this confirmation inspiring, but no doctrines or dogmas of the Church have been formulated from apparitions such as Lourdes. There has been no new revelation to man from God since Christ because Jesus was God’s final word to mankind. The Church merely upholds Christ’s teachings, taking them to the whole world.

 

[Big_Dummy]

I was surprised by the title of this thread.

It is possible that your girl friend is misunderstanding the doctrine of Theosis which is spelled out in II Peter 1, “partaking of the divine nature” – this is applied to all Christians. And, Mary as a Christian would have lived it out too.

2 Peter 1

1Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ:

2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

3According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

5And beside this, **giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. ** 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.