The Divorce of Fatih & Reason

[Topher]

stanley123:

Basically, I agree with you on this.
However, since Vatican II, there has been a growing charismatic movement in the RCC. Isn’t this charismatic movement and charismatic liturgy or practice approved by the RCC? If so, then this would appear to be somewhat of a counterindication of the importance of reason in the RCC. Also there is a whole thread started by someone with a degree in philosophy, which asserts that emotions should be an important factor and not ruled out when it comes to faith. “The heart hath reasons, which reason knoweth not.”
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=74710

The church does not prohibit the spirituality of the charismatic movement, however, that does not mean that the church specifically suports it. Most Catholics who are well grounded in the traditional teachings of the church will not support the over emotional nature of the charismatic movement. And furthermore, emtions can have no part in the determining of truth. They are transient and are often not in line with reality. For example, sometimes people are angry with someone and later come to realise that they did not have a good reason to be angry with that person. They simple had an inappropriate emotional response. Reason, on the other hand is directly related to reality.

 

[mosher]

O good … my degree is in philosophy also. It may be a good way to bring synthesis to the discussion.

I would agree that emotions are an important factor of faith. However, the emotions are rooted in and with the lower powers of the rational souland must always be governed by reason. However this is not the gist of what I am talking about per se. Perhaps an anacdotal scenario would be proper to explain the problem that the Holy Father was addressing in Fides et Ratio.

Person A: I believe that Jesus is God.
Person B: Why?
Person A: I just believe.
Person B: That doesn’t make any sense.
Person A: Why not?
Person B: What proof do you have that Jesus is God?
Person A: I just believe it.

This is in part the problem that is seen by the Holy Father. On one end you can see that it could be just a aproblem with catechesis and that the person has no way of justifying their faith ro giving a defense for it. However more often than not when I have this type of conversation with this type of person their faith is hinged upon a sense or a feeling and there is not rational aspect to their faith. The eternal watchword given by St. Anslem is fides quarens intelectum (faith seeks understanding) and thus all propopsitions given for belief must be rational. If they are not rational then they cannot be of God who is perfectly ordered. Further, a faith based upon feeling is on shifting sands and not on a firm foundation and these people unless they have a strong emotional attachment to being Catholic will end up at the local “Church of what’s happening now” to fulfill their emotional needs.

 

[stanley123]

Topher:

The church does not prohibit the spirituality of the charismatic movement, however, that does not mean that the church specifically suports it. .

In what sense do they not support it? They are conducting all kinds of charismatic renewal services in Catholic Churches with the participation of the priests. This looks like support to me?

 

[stanley123]

mosher:

The eternal watchword given by St. Anslem is fides quarens intelectum (faith seeks understanding) and thus all propopsitions given for belief must be rational. .

I think that the Trinity can only be known by Revelation and the teaching authority of the Church. I don’s see how you would be able to prove the Trinity by Reason alone.

 

[LukeQ]

Quote:
Originally Posted by mosher
The eternal watchword given by St. Anslem is fides quarens intelectum (faith seeks understanding) and thus all propopsitions given for belief must be rational. .

Originally Posted by stanley123
I think that the Trinity can only be known by Revelation and the teaching authority of the Church. I don’s see how you would be able to prove the Trinity by Reason alone.

Proof is another concept enirely to faith and reason.

As you say, we will not be able to prove the Trinity by reason alone. We will not understand until we see God in Heaven. then, we won’t need faith either, or belief.

If we have proof, we don’t need reason or for that matter faith or belief - we “know”

But - can our faith of the Trinity be substantiated through reason, not proved, and is it resonable to have this faith? We need an apologist and a philosopher to answer that one and that may be for another thread. The dogma of the Trinity is a good example to flesh out Faith and reason though.

BTW - I understand that sucessive Popes from John XXIII have supported the Catholic Charasmatic Movement. There are threads on this so lets not go there right now on this one.

Luke

 

[mosher]

stanley123:

I think that the Trinity can only be known by Revelation and the teaching authority of the Church. I don’s see how you would be able to prove the Trinity by Reason alone.

You are absolutly correct. But here is the subtile distinction. Philosophy is the handmaid of Theology - as the old axiom goes. So in a sense when dealing with Theology (the science of God and the things of God) Revelation precedes Reason. Now, that being said it is necessary that all things posited for belief must be reasonable which is another way of saying that all things given us in Revelation in order for us to be sure that it is truly from God cannot be contrary to reason. So, as you can see, it is important to have that reasoned approach to faith because if it is not reasonable then it is not part of our faith.

 

[Topher]

stanley123:

In what sense do they not support it? They are conducting all kinds of charismatic renewal services in Catholic Churches with the participation of the priests. This looks like support to me?

Just because individual parishes or diosceses support the charismatic movement, does not mean that the universal Church, i.e. the body of Christ does. Have you seen any documents coming from Rome that support the Charismatic movement.No. The congregation for the doctrine of the faithful does not put out any such document. Furthermore, the writtings of the current Holy Father, suggest that he leans away from such spirituality. The magesterium does not suggest in any way that the charismatic movement is in line with tradtional Catholic Spirituality. Rather, anything that the magesterium does say about the faith tends to suggest a more rational approach.

 

[stanley123]

Topher:

Just because individual parishes or diosceses support the charismatic movement, does not mean that the universal Church, i.e. the body of Christ does. Have you seen any documents coming from Rome that support the Charismatic movement.No. . .

To the contrary, it looks to me like the following are a few of the messages of support given by the Church recently to the charismatic movement:
HOLY FATHER’S MESSAGE TO CATHOLIC CHARISMATICS

Pope John Paul II, November 9, 1996

“You represent communities of the Charismatic Movement from around the world, which, in their variety, bear witness to the spiritual gifts which the Holy Spirit is bestowing on the Church even in our own day (cf. Christifideles Laici, n. 24). How can we fail to praise God for the abundant fruit which in recent decades the Renewal in the Spirit has brought about in the lives of individuals and in communities?”

**VATICAN CITY, APR 4, 1998 (VIS) **- Leaders of the Italian National Service Committee of Renewal in the Holy Spirit, also known as the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, were received by the Holy Father this morning, who spoke to them of the various tasks facing ecclesial movements today, in particular the formation of the laity.

The Pope recalled that “the Catholic charismatic movement is one of the many fruits of Vatican Council II” which stimulated “an extraordinary flourishing of groups and movements especially sensitive to the Holy Spirit.”

 

[mosher]

Topher is correct in the sense that one would be hard pressed to find any direction of the Charasmatic Movement in any magisterial documents. It is true that John Paul II did address them on occasion which Benedict XVI will probably continue to do. However, in all the communication that was given there was always a strong warning to hold to orthodoxy because they have a tendancy to tap dance on the line of orthodoxy and heterodoxy. Topher is also correct that in the magesterial documents the Church seems to promote a more sober and rational expression of the faith but it has given room to the Charasmatic movement for a few. This being said I would not argue that the Charasmatic movement is completely void of reason. It would be irresponsible to say that. However, it is true that it places at times an undue emphasis on the existential nature of faith and the emotional response therein. This can lead to many problems including indifferentism.

 

[stanley123]

mosher:

Topher is correct in the sense that one would be hard pressed to find any direction of the Charasmatic Movement in any magisterial documents. .

I can’t believe that anyone would say that the RCC does not support the Catholic charismatic movement. The have all kinds of prayer sessions and Masses in Catholic Churches and they have received encouragement from the Pope:
**Pope John Paul II ******

**Address of Pope John Paul II to the ICCRO Council ******

**March 14, 1992 **

Dear Brothers and Sisters in Christ,
In the joy and peace of the Holy Spirit I welcome the Council of the International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Office. As you celebrate the twenty-fifth anniversary of the beginning of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, I willingly join you in giving praise to God for the many fruits which it has borne in the life of the Church. The emergence of the Renewal following the Second Vatican Council was a particular gift of the Holy Spirit to the Church. It was a sign of a desire on the part of many Catholics to live more fully their Baptismal dignity and vocation as adopted sons and daughters of the Father, to know the redeeming power of Christ our Savior in a more intense experience of individual and group prayer, and to follow the teaching of the Scriptures by reading them in the light of the same Spirit who inspired their writing. Certainly one of the most important results of this spiritual reawakening has been that increased thirst for holiness which is seen in the lives of individuals and in the whole Church.

At the end of this Second Millennium, the Church needs more than ever to turn in confidence and hope to the Holy Spirit, who unceasingly draws believers into the Trinitarian communion of love, builds up their visible unity in the one Body of Christ, and sends them forth on mission in obedience to the mandate entrusted to the Apostles by the Risen Christ. We must be convinced that a deepening awareness of the Person and work of the Holy Spirit responds to the needs of our times, for the Spirit “is at the center of the Christian faith and is the source and dynamic power of the Church’s renewal” (Dominum et Vivificantem, 2). Indeed, the Holy Spirit is the “principle agent of the Church’s mission” (Redemptoris Missio, 21), sustaining and guiding the efforts to bring the graces of Pentecost to all people.

 

[stanley123]

mosher:

Topher is correct in the sense that one would be hard pressed to find any direction of the Charasmatic Movement in any magisterial documents. .

There are documents on the Vatican website which support the Charismatic movement:
ADDRESS OF JOHN PAUL II
TO THE PARTICIPANTS IN THE INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE
FOR CATHOLIC CHARISMATIC LEADERS

30 October 1998

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

1. In greeting the International Conference for Catholic Charismatic Leaders,“I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is proclaimed throughout the world” (Rom 1:8). The Catholic Charismatic Renewal has helped many Christians to rediscover the presence and power of the Holy Spirit in their lives, in the life of the Church and in the world; and this rediscovery has awakened in them a faith in Christ filled with joy, a great love of the Church and a generous dedication to her evangelizing mission. In this year of the Holy Spirit, I join you in praise of God for the precious fruits which he has wished to bring to maturity in your communities and, through them, in the particular Churches.

MESSAGE OF JOHN PAUL II
TO THE CATHOLIC FRATERNITY OF CHARISMATIC
COVENANT COMMUNITIES AND FELLOWSHIPS

To the Catholic Fraternity
of Charismatic Covenant Communities and Fellowships

*“May the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, so that you may abound in hope by the power of the Holy Spirit” *( *Rom *15:13 ). With the words of the Apostle Paul I greet you on the occasion of your Conference being held in Rome at this time. This is indeed an occasion of joyful thanksgiving as you celebrate thirty-five years of Catholic Charismatic Renewal within the Church. As I move into the twenty-fifth year of my Pontificate, I thank you for the prayers with which you have accompanied me and for your fidelity to the ministry entrusted to me. Your contribution to the life of the Church, through your faithful witness to the presence and action of the Holy Spirit has helped many people to rediscover in their own lives the beauty of the grace given to them at Baptism, the gateway to life in the Spirit (cf. *Catechism of the Catholic Church, *1213). It has helped them to know the power of the full outpouring of the Holy Spirit conferred at Confirmation (cf. *ibid., *1302). I join you in praising the Most Holy Trinity for the work of the Spirit who continues to draw people more fully into the life of Christ and to render their bonds with the Church more perfect (cf. Lumen Gentium, 11).

 

[stanley123]

mosher:

Topher is correct in the sense that one would be hard pressed to find any direction of the Charasmatic Movement in any magisterial documents. .

MESSAGE OF JOHN PAUL II
TO THE PARTICIPANTS IN THE 8th INTERNATIONAL
MEETING OF THE CATHOLIC FRATERNITY
OF CHARISMATIC COVENANT COMMUNITIES AND FELLOWSHIPS

Dear Friends,

1. “The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all!” (2 Cor 13:13).

This is my greeting to the participants in the Eighth International Meeting of the Catholic Fraternity of Charismatic Covenant Communities and Fellowships which is taking place in Rome at this time. The beginning of your meeting coincided with a most significant moment for the whole Church, but in a particular way for the Charismatic Renewal: the Feast of Pentecost in this year which, in our preparation for the Great Jubilee of the Year 2000, is dedicated to the Holy Spirit - a year in which you are involved with special intensity. In Tertio Millennio Adveniente I wrote: “The primary tasks of the preparation for the Jubilee include a renewed appreciation of the presence and activity of the Spirit, who acts within the Church both in the Sacraments, especially in Confirmation, and in the variety of charisms, roles and ministries which he inspires for the good of the Church” (No. 45). Certainly, your own charism leads you to direct your life towards a special “intimacy” with the Holy Spirit. And a survey of the thirty years of the history of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal shows that you have helped many people to rediscover the presence and power of the Holy Spirit in their lives, in the life of the Church and in the life of the world - a rediscovery which in many of them has led to a faith in Christ filled with joy and enthusiasm, a great love of the Church and a generous dedication to her mission. In this special year, therefore, I join you in a prayer of praise and thanksgiving for these precious fruits which God has wished to bring to maturity in your communities and, through them, in the Church.

MESSAGE OF JOHN PAUL II
TO THE CATHOLIC CHARISMATIC RENEWAL

Dear Brothers and Sisters!

1. With great joy I send you my greetings for the World Meeting of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, which is taking place in Rimini.

World Youth Day: from Toronto to Cologne

International meeting: Rome 10-13 April 2003

James Francis Card. Stafford
President
Pontifical Council for the Laity

Concluding remarks

At this meeting there are delegates from 75 countries representing institutional aspects of the constitution of the Church, and 41 delegates from lay communities representing the charismatic element within the Church. These two groups are not fundamentally in tension with one another. Rather, their relationship is complementary. This reality is something we should take advantage of in preparation for the next World Youth Day in Cologne 2005. Central Europe needs it, as do many other places. Let us thank God for the renewal of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the Church. Pope John XXIII prayed to God for a new Pentecost. Pope John Paul II, on the eve of Pentecost in 1998, addressed 300,000 people from lay ecclesial communities in Saint Peter’s Square. That event was a sign that the prayer of Pope John XXIII is being realized.

 

[stanley123]

mosher:

Topher is correct in the sense that one would be hard pressed to find any direction of the Charasmatic Movement in any magisterial documents. .

More documents from the Vatican website on the Charismatic movement (excerpts):
MESSAGGIO DEL SANTO PADRE AI PARTECIPANTI AL RADUNO MONDIALE DEL RINNOVAMENTO CARISMATICO CATTOLICO

Pubblichiamo di seguito il Messaggio che il Santo Padre Giovanni Paolo II ha inviato ai partecipanti al Raduno Mondiale del Rinnovamento Carismatico Cattolico che si svolge in questi giorni a Rimini:

Carissimi Fratelli e Sorelle!

1. Con grande gioia vi invio il mio saluto in occasione del “Raduno Mondiale del Rinnovamento Carismatico Cattolico”, che si svolge in Rimini. Da diversi anni ormai il “Rinnovamento nello Spirito Santo” celebra costì, all’inizio di maggio, la sua “convocazione nazionale”. In occasione dell’Anno Giubilare questo appuntamento ha assunto una dimensione particolare per la presenza di numerosi esponenti di gruppi e comunità carismatiche provenienti da altri Paesi del mondo. Giustamente, perciò, il vostro raduno si svolge con il patrocinio di un organismo, l’“International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services”, a cui spetta il compito di coordinare e promuovere lo scambio di esperienze e di riflessioni tra le comunità carismatiche cattoliche sparse nel mondo. Grazie a ciò, la ricchezza presente in ogni comunità torna a beneficio di tutti e tutte le comunità possono più facilmente percepire il vincolo di comunione che le lega le une alle altre e a tutta la Chiesa. Saluto cordialmente il Presidente dell’“International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services”, Sig. Allan Panozza, e il Coordinatore Nazionale del “Rinnovamento nello Spirito Santo”, Sig. Salvatore Martinez, insieme a tutti i membri del Comitato Nazionale di Servizio

THE JUBILEE IN THE WORLD

THE CHURCHES OF THE MAGHREB

The Jubilee, an occasion to study and strengthen the faith

The commitment is to identify the gifts and charisms of each person to place them at the service of common good, to re-discover the charismatic and ministerial dimension of the Church, to study in depth the services entrusted to the laity and to understand the charisms of the Church, especially in the field of apostolic movements, of Spirituality and of other associative realities, thus to pay attention to the charismatic Renewal and to the movements which derive from it, strengthening their ties with the Church; in the ecumenical field to be committed to with the non-Catholic Pentecostal movement, overcoming sectarian attitudes on both sides.

 

[Topher]

Again, concerning these documents, I would advice you to read mosher’s last post. None of these documents really carry any weight of authority. Not one is an encylical or apostolic letter. Not one is a statement from the CDW that is clarifying whether or not the churh officially suppoprts the Charismatic movement.

 

[LukeQ]

Topher & Mosher, I reason that Stanley has come forward with some credible documentation on CCM. It would appear that the Vatican and PopeJP2 are/were happy to talk and address CCM in a very positive light. If it was something they wanted to supress, it would not be promoted on the offical website of the Church.

By comparison, we do not see anything on Fr Gobbi’s MMP or other bogus apparitions and locutions I alluded to in the 1st bullet point of my very first post in this thread dated Sept 11.

It must be admitted that there is definately a degree of acceptance in the Church for CCM and that acceptance has its roots in St Paul’s letters and as such, the principle teachings of CCM are very much foundational in the Magisterium, something that no Approved Marian Apparition will ever be, including Fatima.

One of the key gifts of the Holy Spirit is Discernment and this gift is highly recognised in CCM, so Faith and Reason in principle, are very much married together.

Topher & Mosher - without this thread becoming an apolgetic for/against CCM I have also witnessed the fracturing of Faith and Reason with CCM too but this has to do with the people, not the teaching. This situation is more a relflection of the lack of Magisterial teaching, (Scripture and Catechism), in the Church over the last 40 years. Are your CCM concerns more related to the general condition of the education among Catholics or specifically CCM.

BTW - where are we going with this thread as there are others on the debate of CCM?

Luke

 

[stanley123]

Topher:

None of these documents really carry any weight of authority. .

Funny. I thought that when the Vicar of Christ, the Supreme Pontiff of the Roman Catholic Church was speaking, that there would be a modicum of authority attached to what he said.

 

[manualman]

Oy! If anyone is still interested in the original topic after the Thomistic debates and charismatic bashing, here’s a tip:

BOTH reason and emotion have a place in matters of faith. But they are NOT equal. There is a pecking order to all matters of faith and morals. FACTS, FAITH, FEELINGS.

1. Assemble the facts.
2. Know what the faith has to say about these facts.
3. Consult your feelings.

If at the end of #3 something doesn’t feel right, double check #s 1 and 2. But #3 never holds the trump card.

Example: Your teenage daughter becomes pregnant
Fact: The tiny life in there has it’s own unique DNA, its own blood type, measurable brain waves.
Faith: Abortion is inherently evil as it is a taking of human life.
Feelings: But she’s just a kid! How can she ever hope for a decent life?

Incidentally, this handy guide was taught to me by one of the most prominant catholic charismatic organizations.

 

[Topher]

stanley123:

Funny. I thought that when the Vicar of Christ, the Supreme Pontiff of the Roman Catholic Church was speaking, that there would be a modicum of authority attached to what he said.

There is magersterial teahing and then there is the Pope speaking in an address or sermon. The two are not equal.

 

[mosher]

manualman:

Oy! If anyone is still interested in the original topic after the Thomistic debates and charismatic bashing, here’s a tip:

BOTH reason and emotion have a place in matters of faith. But they are NOT equal. There is a pecking order to all matters of faith and morals. FACTS, FAITH, FEELINGS.

1. Assemble the facts.
2. Know what the faith has to say about these facts.
3. Consult your feelings.

If at the end of #3 something doesn’t feel right, double check #s 1 and 2. But #3 never holds the trump card.

Example: Your teenage daughter becomes pregnant
Fact: The tiny life in there has it’s own unique DNA, its own blood type, measurable brain waves.
Faith: Abortion is inherently evil as it is a taking of human life.
Feelings: But she’s just a kid! How can she ever hope for a decent life?

Incidentally, this handy guide was taught to me by one of the most prominant catholic charismatic organizations.

That is a pretty good formulation however I would have to discuss a few points of it.

Faith precededs reason
faith is not equal to moral obligations
emotions can never be a guide post for anything unless they are governed by reason.

practically speaking I know what you are saying, however, as I said there seems to be a flaw in the logic which could possible lead to some problems.

 

[mosher]

stanley123:

Funny. I thought that when the Vicar of Christ, the Supreme Pontiff of the Roman Catholic Church was speaking, that there would be a modicum of authority attached to what he said.

Yes, the Holy Father himself did speak to and well of the Charismatic Movement however he did warn it constantly.

I think what is missing here is that we are using the term approval in two different ways. I think what Topher and I are saying is that there is not official magesterial aprobation which would constitute formal approval. Also, the level of certitude of various articles posted. In such addresses there is not level of certitude governing the entire address unless otherwise specified and in such cases the Holy Father can be out right wrong. I know for a lot of people that is a hard thing to say but it is common in the history of the Church that many popes had to be corrected on some issues.

In anycase the issue is not about the expression of faith that one has but rather is their faith reasoned. That is the major point and the point that in the end matters because it leads to erronious beliefs if it is not guided by reason rather than some type of emotional or existential urgings.