The "Do I have to" as opposed to "Should I" Argument

[GaryTaylor]

Ah, but again there lies the constant problem. To argue among all good people who have in one way or another found Faith in Christ.

The only way to conquer Faith, is with Faith. So what will be the same with Communism, will be the same with Islam. We can’t Kill our way out of this. And the Christians being Martyred is climbing to an alarming rate. Last century 45-million Christians were Martyred. Everyone chuckled when John Paul II said this Century will be the same. Well here in 2011 we have already surpassed last century satistically.

Evil is the opposition to Our Lady. At Fatima the Recitation and growth of the Rosary had a direct affect on Communism. As Pope Pius tesified to in Oct of 51. He compared it to finding Ten at Sodom and Gomorrah, that was his exact analogy. Its a foregone conlusion the Catholic Church has venerated Fatima in every possible way. The exact intention and meaning of “Worthy of Belief” Simply means it Cannot hurt you or lead you astray. Fatima is already equal to Lourdes and has been for years.

When Jesus Christ was about to breath His last on the Cross he stated. Behold your Son, Behold your Mother, were the words which I’m sure you remember? Well, here Christ acknowledges His Mother the Mother of God, and then confirms, She is also the Mother of Every one of this Faith.

How one is doing in there Faith isn’t the point here. Understandable most here are doing fine, and will be fine. The problem is those who are not doing well, those who would think there are many paths to Christ. Then quickly get led astray. Islam prays 5X daily. The consecration to evil is deep and increase’s and mulitplys at an alarming rate. Those are the Souls that Mary will quickly convert through intercession of the Rosary. We help by keeping the message alive and by incouraging all Christian’s to send up their suffering through the Rosary in reparation for Sinners, this becomes of most importance, because our suffering is redeemable. And its confirmed by the Church and by Christ in 1925-26 with his appearence to Lucys.

It became a custom with Sr Lucy when confronted on the 3rd secret, she would quickly refer all to Revelations chapters, 8 and 13. And the 3rd secret was also revealed on the death bed of Blessed Jacinta. The visions continued till her death. So by reading the proper texts available its not hard to comprehend Fatimas significance or the Rosarys specifically in this period.

Those consecrated to Christ will do just as Revelations 13 states, and just as they have been. “If there destiny is captivity into captivity they go! If their destiny is to die by the Sword, by the Sword they will die! Such is the faithful endurance that distinguishes Gods Holy People.”

Enough have died, their Souls scream out for justice. Sitting around watching the Martyred nightly on the News doesn’t have to happen. It happens because “WE” choose to allow this to happen.

When will this become clear? When death is at your door? The communion between the two sister churchs is a must, and the Rosary is a must. That “is” Gods plan for world peace.

The Novena of the Miraculous Medal Mass converts like nothing I have ever seen or witnessed. I wouldn’t be so quick to deny Our Lady’s help. its needed, and there may well be no other solution.

There’s an old saying in the Catholic Church in Latin, and when you translate it reads… “The Voice of the People, is the Voice of God!”

I don’t see any stopping any of this or any other alternative. The only remaining question is how long, and how many Souls?

It may well be too late now, yet its worth the effort before its complete reality. A third of the world is a lot of humans. Maybe it just hasn’t become bad enough to actually believe yet? So we should test God? Thats a fools path and the price will be enormous. Be carefull what you ask for.

Joseph Pelletiers A.A., “The Dancing of the Sun at Fatima”, is a very good book with all the Church thinking included. I don’t believe it includes the Tuy and the Pontevdara Visitation to Lucy. Which are Jesus Christ as the Holy Spirit visiting. But the church thinking is in-depth and the death bed testimony on the children is shocking, for they were simply to young to fully comprehend what they were saying. The child predicted Her own death, the place, who would be there, and the time, the future of the world, fashions, sin against the flesh, same sex marriage. Amazing and obviously touched by God. And she suffered and constantly offered all the suffering to God? All the revelations by the children were passed to Priest’s, Mother Superiors, or Bishops.

Fatima.org …isn’t must have, the Rosary is a must and to fully understand the significance, Fatima is a great place to learn, all the information is out here as witnessed and researched by the elect of the church.

 

[Cecilianus]

Ah, but again there lies the constant problem. To argue among all good people who have in one way or another found Faith in Christ.

The only way to conquer Faith, is with Faith. So what will be the same with Communism, will be the same with Islam. We can’t Kill our way out of this. And the Christians being Martyred is climbing to an alarming rate. Last century 45-million Christians were Martyred. Everyone chuckled when John Paul II said this Century will be the same. Well here in 2011 we have already surpassed last century satistically.

Evil is the opposition to Our Lady. At Fatima the Recitation and growth of the Rosary had a direct affect on Communism. As Pope Pius tesified to in Oct of 51. He compared it to finding Ten at Sodom and Gomorrah, that was his exact analogy. Its a foregone conlusion the Catholic Church has venerated Fatima in every possible way. The exact intention and meaning of “Worthy of Belief” Simply means it Cannot hurt you or lead you astray. Fatima is already equal to Lourdes and has been for years.

When Jesus Christ was about to breath His last on the Cross he stated. Behold your Son, Behold your Mother, were the words which I’m sure you remember? Well, here Christ acknowledges His Mother the Mother of God, and then confirms, She is also the Mother of Every one of this Faith.

How one is doing in there Faith isn’t the point here. Understandable most here are doing fine, and will be fine. The problem is those who are not doing well, those who would think there are many paths to Christ. Then quickly get led astray. Islam prays 5X daily. The consecration to evil is deep and increase’s and mulitplys at an alarming rate. Those are the Souls that Mary will quickly convert through intercession of the Rosary. We help by keeping the message alive and by incouraging all Christian’s to send up their suffering through the Rosary in reparation for Sinners, this becomes of most importance, because our suffering is redeemable. And its confirmed by the Church and by Christ in 1925-26 with his appearence to Lucys.

It became a custom with Sr Lucy when confronted on the 3rd secret, she would quickly refer all to Revelations chapters, 8 and 13. And the 3rd secret was also revealed on the death bed of Blessed Jacinta. The visions continued till her death. So by reading the proper texts available its not hard to comprehend Fatimas significance or the Rosarys specifically in this period.

Those consecrated to Christ will do just as Revelations 13 states, and just as they have been. “If there destiny is captivity into captivity they go! If their destiny is to die by the Sword, by the Sword they will die! Such is the faithful endurance that distinguishes Gods Holy People.”

Enough have died, their Souls scream out for justice. Sitting around watching the Martyred nightly on the News doesn’t have to happen. It happens because “WE” choose to allow this to happen.

When will this become clear? When death is at your door? The communion between the two sister churchs is a must, and the Rosary is a must. That “is” Gods plan for world peace.

The Novena of the Miraculous Medal Mass converts like nothing I have ever seen or witnessed. I wouldn’t be so quick to deny Our Lady’s help. its needed, and there may well be no other solution.

There’s an old saying in the Catholic Church in Latin, and when you translate it reads… “The Voice of the People, is the Voice of God!”

I don’t see any stopping any of this or any other alternative. The only remaining question is how long, and how many Souls?

It may well be too late now, yet its worth the effort before its complete reality. A third of the world is a lot of humans. Maybe it just hasn’t become bad enough to actually believe yet? So we should test God? Thats a fools path and the price will be enormous. Be carefull what you ask for.

Joseph Pelletiers A.A., “The Dancing of the Sun at Fatima”, is a very good book with all the Church thinking included. I don’t believe it includes the Tuy and the Pontevdara Visitation to Lucy. Which are Jesus Christ as the Holy Spirit visiting. But the church thinking is in-depth and the death bed testimony on the children is shocking, for they were simply to young to fully comprehend what they were saying. The child predicted Her own death, the place, who would be there, and the time, the future of the world, fashions, sin against the flesh, same sex marriage. Amazing and obviously touched by God. And she suffered and constantly offered all the suffering to God? All the revelations by the children were passed to Priest’s, Mother Superiors, or Bishops.

I’m really not sure what the point of this was. Nobody here is martyring anybody, nobody is opposed to Our Lady, and nobody is even discouraging Roman Catholics from praying the Rosary - simply stating that we have our own devotions and spiritual patrimony different from that of the West.

My devotion is to the Theotokos - I don’t mention any particular title of hers other than Theotokos and Panagia (the two defined by the Church in her solemn office of defining dogma), and I don’t need to. Our Lady is one person, whether you call her Our Lady of Fatima or Our Lady of Guadaloupe or just the Blessed Mothers. The prayers go to the same person. I do acknowledge that Fatima is important - I also acknowledge that the Protecting Veil, which you have probably never even heard of before this thread if you are anything like most RCs, is just as important an apparition if not more so. When you adopt a devotion to the Pokrova, then it might be appropriate for you to start preaching Fatima again to us. Otherwise, you are simply wasting words, since (believe it or not) we have all heard of Our Lady of Fatima and are familiar with her call to repentance and prayer.

 

[LilyM]

Islam prays 5X daily.

Yes, but not to or through Christ. Major distinction. He said HE is the way to the Father, and prescribed various things, such as the sacraments, that are critical for anyone who would follow Him to the Father. The Rosary was not and is not one of them. If the Rosary were critical, if it were so important a part of His plan as to be a ‘must’ for all Christians, and you’ve used the word many times to describe it, then He could and would certainly have commanded its recitation by all somewhere, as He has commanded us all to attend Sunday worship, confess our sins regularly, receive Communion regularly and so on.

The Novena of the Miraculous Medal Mass converts like nothing I have ever seen or witnessed.

Gosh, I couldn’t have made my point more beautifully myself. These two devotions have nothing whatsoever to do with the Rosary - they are a different Marian devotion entirely. And by your own admission as powerful as the Rosary if not more so!

I wouldn’t be so quick to deny Our Lady’s help. its needed, and there may well be no other solution.

Marian devotion is important - no one here has denied it. The Rosary is but a single form among many of Marian devotion. And again, out of your own mouth, some of the others are pretty dang effective too!

Fatima.org …isn’t must have, the Rosary is a must and to fully understand the significance, Fatima is a great place to learn, all the information is out here as witnessed and researched by the elect of the church.

Again with the ‘must’ word - the Rosary is not a ‘must’ by any definition of that term, and Fatima is but one place to learn about it - the devotion, after all, existed for a thousand years before Our Lady’s appearances there.

 

[Cecilianus]

Yes, but not to or through Christ. Major distinction.

Incidentally, many medieval Sufis (possibly under the influence of Christian monks left in Islamic lands) did say that all prayer comes through the Logos of God, which hypostatically rested on the person of Jesus (in an Arian or Nestorian fashion rather than an Orthodox or Catholic one). If they’re right - as I would like to believe - than even the prayers of Muslims goes through Christ, whether they are aware of it or not.

And also the devotion of Muslims towards Our Lady puts Protestants to shame. They even believe in the Immaculate Conception (while holding an Orthodox rather than Catholic view of Original Sin - which I find quite interesting given the modern Orthodox phobia towards anything smelling of Popery, including the dogma of the Immaculate Conception).

 

[GaryTaylor]

I’m really not sure what the point of this was.

The Point has been mentioned, its foolish to silence a worthy cause with comments like, “its not church doctrine” “worthy of belief doesn’t mean you have to belief”. [Thats the point.] I understand your faith, its not a mystery.

The practices of venerating Our Lady regardless of what exactly they are, are simply the will of God.

Islam is Christian heresy. If you chose to believe that prayer serves God, you’d be wrong. There is only one path to God. His name is Jesus Christ. Does Islam pray to Jesus Christ and have they Baptised in the Trinity, I doubt it.

All the Homily’s from Pius to John Paul are all in “The Sun Danced at Fatima”. To comprehend what exactly the church “has” said about Fatima and Our Lady. Those are the clearest view’s. Which relates to “do I have to” as opposed to “should I”. There’s no question that “you should” and its greatly needed. The “Do I have to” sounds like a Ten yo when their asked to take out the garbage. Doesn’t it?

Now, if in fact the prophecy from the message of Christ to the Seer is 100% accurate, which have no doubt it is. Then there’s a major problem. The establishment of the devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary is consistantly met with the same resistance its met with here. You will not find a thread ever, anywhere where it is not met with resistance.

We also can’t gauge our personal life, to the need of a devotion to Mary. Your world may indeed be fine, that has zero to do with elsewhere. Abortion alone which started in Russia is major problem today, so yes Russia has already spread her error through the world.

If Christs will is veneration of Mary? Then when He feels that is properly been established He will act, then obviously this just isn’t completed yet. The reparation of sin on the first Saturdays is “the” major part of that message. There were THREE individuals at Confession this week. Being that was the First Saturday of January, it a very good indication of where we are at. So how far have we actually gone in bringing about the will of God at Fatima? People are going to Mass which is great, I see an increase there. But the Saturday Reparation? I don’t see it.

So what really is the issue? You think theres no need? Marys to highly venerated already? You don’t believe it will do any good? Its an apparition so “you don’t ‘have to’ believe thus go” I fail to see the “real” issue? Which leaves us in the crisis we are in.

Look at the Veneration of Mary this way. There’s one Billion Catholics. Of the one Billion maybe on a Good Day 30% pray the Rosary and actually venerate Mary. Of that 30% maybe 5% actually follow through with the Reparation of the First Sat mass.

Is it good enough? Christ hasn’t responded as of yet, so I take the silence for a no.

 

[Cecilianus]

The Point has been mentioned, its foolish to silence a worthy cause with comments like, “its not church doctrine” “worthy of belief doesn’t mean you have to belief”. [Thats the point.] I understand your faith, its not a mystery.

The practices of venerating Our Lady regardless of what exactly they are, are simply the will of God.

Islam is Christian heresy. If you chose to believe that prayer serves God, you’d be wrong. There is only one path to God. His name is Jesus Christ. Does Islam pray to Jesus Christ and have they Baptised in the Trinity, I doubt it.

All the Homily’s from Pius to John Paul are all in “The Sun Danced at Fatima”. To comprehend what exactly the church “has” said about Fatima and Our Lady. Those are the clearest view’s. Which relates to “do I have to” as opposed to “should I”. There’s no question that “you should” and its greatly needed. The “Do I have to” sounds like a Ten yo when their asked to take out the garbage. Doesn’t it?

Now, if in fact the prophecy from the message of Christ to the Seer is 100% accurate, which have no doubt it is. Then there’s a major problem. The establishment of the devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary is consistantly met with the same resistance its met with here. You will not find a thread ever, anywhere where it is not met with resistance.

We also can’t gauge our personal life, to the need of a devotion to Mary. Your world may indeed be fine, that has zero to do with elsewhere. Abortion alone which started in Russia is major problem today, so yes Russia has already spread her error through the world.

If Christs will is veneration of Mary? Then when He feels that is properly been established He will act, then obviously this just isn’t completed yet. The reparation of sin on the first Saturdays is “the” major part of that message. There were THREE individuals at Confession this week. Being that was the First Saturday of January, it a very good indication of where we are at. So how far have we actually gone in bringing about the will of God at Fatima? People are going to Mass which is great, I see an increase there. But the Saturday Reparation? I don’t see it.

So what really is the issue? You think theres no need? Marys to highly venerated already? You don’t believe it will do any good? Its an apparition so “you don’t ‘have to’ believe thus go” I fail to see the “real” issue? Which leaves us in the crisis we are in.

Look at the Veneration of Mary this way. There’s one Billion Catholics. Of the one Billion maybe on a Good Day 30% pray the Rosary and actually venerate Mary. Of that 30% maybe 5% actually follow through with the Reparation of the First Sat mass.

Is it good enough? Christ hasn’t responded as of yet, so I take the silence for a no.

Nobody is disagreeing with you here - except that somebody pointed out the accurate statement that Fatima is not de fide. I think everybody here agrees that it is nonetheless a real apparition - as was the apparition of the Pokrova which we believe in just as strongly but are not militantly insisting that you accept the way you are preaching Fatima. Private devotions must be accepted by those to whom they are addressed, not to the universal Church, and that’s what you’re not getting.

“Abortion comes from Russia”? Are you really being serious?

“30% pray the Rosary and actually venerate Mary”. The company of a bunch of Byzantine Catholics is a tactless place to equate praying the Rosary and venerating Mary, because (as I have said before and won’t say again) we have our own devotions to her. I would also be surprised if 30% of “Catholics” pray the Rosary. 90% of “Catholics” contracept. Your numbers sound too optimistic to me.

 

[Seamus_L]

The rosary and Our Lady of Fatima ARE universal devotions. You’ll have as much success trying to get Eastern Catholics in eastern Europe to abandon them as the Soviets did.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Nobody is disagreeing with you here - except that somebody pointed out the accurate statement that Fatima is not de fide. I think everybody here agrees that it is nonetheless a real apparition - as was the apparition of the Pokrova which we believe in just as strongly but are not militantly insisting that you accept the way you are preaching Fatima. Private devotions must be accepted by those to whom they are addressed, not to the universal Church, and that’s what you’re not getting.

“Abortion comes from Russia”? Are you really being serious?

“30% pray the Rosary and actually venerate Mary”. The company of a bunch of Byzantine Catholics is a tactless place to equate praying the Rosary and venerating Mary, because (as I have said before and won’t say again) we have our own devotions to her. I would also be surprised if 30% of “Catholics” pray the Rosary. 90% of “Catholics” contracept. Your numbers sound too optimistic to me.

Oh they are definately optimistic. And yes Russia was first to legalize abortion in 1919.

Pokrova, I have no idea what it is about. Send a link if you’re aware of one thats accurate. Personally I wouldn’t care which of the two Churchs venerated it.

Militant?.. doesn’t sound right. But those are your feelings, be them right or wrong.

Relevance to this day and age definately, which relates to the OP.

 

[Cecilianus]

The rosary and Our Lady of Fatima ARE universal devotions. You’ll have as much success trying to get Eastern Catholics in eastern Europe to abandon them as the Soviets did.

Some Eastern Catholics had adopted the Rosary when they were Latinized, some hadn’t. It’s a Western devotion that some Eastern Catholics happen to practice - not a universal devotion that everybody should necessarily practice. And the Papal condemnation of Latinizations starting with Benedict XIV and continuing on through Leo XIII, Pius XII, and Vatican II is too well-known to need repeating.

I’m not saying that an Eastern Catholic shouldn’t pray the Rosary - I pray it myself - but rather than one doesn’t need to. (Although we shouldn’t pray it instead of Orthros before Liturgy - that IS wrong.)

 

[Cecilianus]

Oh they are definately optimistic. And yes Russia was first to legalize abortion in 1919.

I don’t think the American legalization of abortion came from Soviet influence, however - while one can pin a tangible Nazi influence due to Margaret Sanger’s ties to Planned Parenthood.

Pokrova, I have no idea what it is about. Send a link if you’re aware of one thats accurate. Personally I wouldn’t care which of the two Churchs venerated it.

The Wikipedia article looks pretty accurate to me - it’s at least as trustworthy as anything coming out of my mouth, since we’re both anonymous internet sources in a venue where anyone can say anything we want

One point I would make though is that the article is inaccurate in saying that Constantinople was besieged by a Slavic army; they were under attack from Swedish Vikings (MY ancestors! Woot!), whom Our Lady has a special fondness for performing miracles against. The “Rus” were Vikings, not Slavs.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intercession_of_the_Theotokos

There is also a page on it from OrthodoxWiki: orthodoxwiki.org/Protection_of_the_Mother_of_God

and a brief but reliable description on a rather dubious-looking (sede-leaning?) Roman Catholic webpage:

mgr.org/TheVeil.html

Militant?.. doesn’t sound right. But those are your feelings, be them right or wrong.

Relevance to this day and age definately, which relates to the OP.

One should be militant against heresy, unbelief, and sin - not against one’s fellow orthodox Catholics.

 

[Robert_Burns]

I am talking about the presumption that runs thorough this entire thread.

The Church has minimum requirements that all Catholics must abide by to remain in “good standing”, and many, sadly, do only what is required.

However, that is not what we are talking about here. We are talking about ***PRIVATE DEVOTIONS! ***
You have stated your opinion in this thread more than once regarding the rosary and Fatima. And if this works for you that is fine.
You want to shout from the rooftops that you think the rosary is going to change the world, go ahead.

I do, on rare occaison, offer a rosary for a special intention,
so I do not have any aversion to, nor am I denying that it is not an important tool for helping one to achieve holiness.

Understand though, that no matter what you say, where I am now in my life & spirituality,
I have no desire to foster a devotion to Mary via the Rosary or Fatima.
It does not make me a “bad Catholic” or one who does not want to listen to what saints, popes & doctors of the Church have written.
It makes me someone who has found other ways, by listening and discerning what God wants for me, to foster a devotional and prayer life that is pleasing to God.

Why cannot we just agree to disagree and respect that it is the ***“both/and” ***of our faith that is what makes it awesome!!

Where you are missing a rather obvious point IMO is when you say to me that if “I want to” shout from the rooftops etc.

Would you say the same about St Alphonsus Ligouri? Would you say the same about St Louis Marie De Montfort. Would you go to a Dominican Priory and say that? Would you go to a Carmelite Convent and say that?

I am not talking about what I THINK someone should do or not do. I am talking about people telling us that The Rosary or Fatima is PRIVATE DEVOTION when in fact - Entire Movements WITHIN the CHURCH With the Approval of the Church have taught otherwise for Centuries. Up to and including SAINTS and POPES and in the case of Pope St Pius the V , the First Dominican POPE - BOTH and through whom probably the most Stupendous Miracle at Le Panto was worked. So it isnt just what " I Think. "

 

[Cecilianus]

Where you are missing a rather obvious point IMO is when you say to me that if “I want to” shout from the rooftops etc.

Would you say the same about St Alphonsus Ligouri? Would you say the same about St Louis Marie De Montfort. Would you go to a Dominican Priory and say that? Would you go to a Carmelite Convent and say that?

I am not talking about what I THINK someone should do or not do. I am talking about people telling us that The Rosary or Fatima is PRIVATE DEVOTION when in fact - Entire Movements WITHIN the CHURCH With the Approval of the Church have taught otherwise for Centuries. Up to and including SAINTS and POPES and in the case of Pope St Pius the V , the First Dominican POPE - BOTH and through whom probably the most Stupendous Miracle at Le Panto was worked. So it isnt just what " I Think. "

Anything which is not a liturgical service is a private devotion, in the Church’s use of the word (even though I have been extending the term “private devotion” to include akathists and molebens, which are liturgical services that are as peculiar to the East as the Rosary is to the West). The fact that it is strongly encouraged and led in public by Popes and saints does not change this fact.

 

[Robert_Burns]

What makes you think that someone who doesn’t pray the Rosary is in any way more likely to do the ‘minimum’ in regards any aspect of their faith?

I don’t pray the Rosary daily, it’s true.

On the other hand, I DO go to frequent confession, usually fortnightly. I attend Mass several times a week on average rather than once on Sundays as most Catholics do. I pray Liturgy of the Hours and other things. For that matter I spend a lot of time on CAF, which is in itself a spiritual work of mercy and a good faith practice. It teaches me about my faith and sometimes I hope I teach others too.

When you add it all up I probably do as much as most people who pray the Rosary daily, since plenty of them do little else besides. I just focus on other faith practices and devotions than the Rosary.

When you look at Brother David - he doesn’t pray the Rosary but he has chosen to consecrate His life to God in a very special way that 99% of daily Rosary-prayers could never even contemplate, let alone actually go through with.

Who’s daring to say that he is less spiritual than the daily rosary prayers, or less saintly, or in any way doing the ‘minimum’? Again, he is simply focusing on other practices and devotions than the Rosary.

Thats a Circular Argument. You cannot on the one hand claim that the Rosary is merely Private Devotion and “Not Required” then on the otherhand cite how Brother (With all due respect) has devoted himself to other aspects of worship and fellowship. Why? Because those things that he does , are not Required of EVERYONE De fide either. So in essence - you have by saying so then agreed with the premise. He doesnt do the Minimum but has chose to AUGMENT his belief by ADDITIONAL Devotions and accepted them as a rule to AUGMENT what is required.

What is the difference between he and those Devoted to the Rosary and Fatima? Its the same argument. And you dont hear me saying he is WRONG in his choices , neither do you hear me say - Thats fine and good but I DONT HAVE TO DO WHAT BROTHER DOES on a dfay to day basis its not De Fide… Etc Etc Etc. Therein lies the difference.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

Anything which is not a liturgical service is a private devotion, in the Church’s use of the word (even though I have been extending the term “private devotion” to include akathists and molebens, which are liturgical services that are as peculiar to the East as the Rosary is to the West). The fact that it is strongly encouraged and led in public by Popes and saints does not change this fact.

I am quoting and bolding this so that maybe it will sink in!!!
Mr. Burns, you are mis-representing what the Chuch actually teaches on the issue of PRIVATE DEVOTIONS, and the Rosary & Fatima are just that-
whether you like it or not!!!

It is comments/threads such as this that help to perpetuate so much of the ignorance of the Catholic faith out there.

Again, I am not saying that the Rosary & Fatima are not important. What I am saying, is that whether you like it or not, they are not required actions/devotions for one to call themselves Catholic, regardless of the fact that Popes & saints have practiced them, and endorsed them.

 

[Cecilianus]

Thats a Circular Argument. You cannot on the one hand claim that the Rosary is merely Private Devotion and “Not Required” then on the otherhand cite how Brother (With all due respect) has devoted himself to other aspects of worship and fellowship. Why? Because those things that he does , are not Required of EVERYONE De fide either. So in essence - you have by saying so then agreed with the premise. He doesnt do the Minimum but has chose to AUGMENT his belief by ADDITIONAL Devotions and accepted them as a rule to AUGMENT what is required.

What is the difference between he and those Devoted to the Rosary and Fatima? Its the same argument. And you dont hear me saying he is WRONG in his choices , neither do you hear me say - Thats fine and good but I DONT HAVE TO DO WHAT BROTHER DOES on a dfay to day basis its not De Fide… Etc Etc Etc. Therein lies the difference.

What’s “required” - and I mean logically required in order to attain sanctity, rather than legally required by the Church - is that we pray and fast, regardless of what our prayers are. What Brother David does daily may not be required for you, since you do something else. What you do (the Rosary) is not required of Brother David, because he does something else.

You say that you aren’t pointing out that you don’t need to do our Eastern devotions - but nobody ever suggested that it was required that you pray the chotki and the akathist daily. Whereas someone did say that the Rosary was necessary - please refer back to post number 20. And because people do say this, we have to respond.

If nobody had ever claimed that the Rosary was necessary, we would never need to respond that it isn’t. We never claimed that the chotki is necessary, so you never had a reason to point out that you don’t pray it.

Sound good?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Yes the reality of what one must do and what one should do is the topic.

Its understood in the Catholic Church you don not have to Pray the Rosary and Our Lady of Fatima Feast Mass is not a Holy Day of obligation… Though initially it was elevated to a 2nd Class Feast day by Pope Pius. Which would have made it an obligation had it not been suppressed.

So once the suppression occured, and no its not an obligation.

OK…we reached this point in agreement?

Now what I am saying really has zero to do with obligation. I am referring to what over 2-million Catholics still feel is relevant in this time. As Pope Benedict XVI mentions in his last book “Light of the World” and in his May 13th 2010 Homily.

Also here is what Benedict XVI had to say about…

Private Revelations and specifically of Fatima.

In every age the Church has received the charism of prophecy, which must be scrutinized. The prophetic word is a warning or a consolation, or both together. In this sense there is a link between the charism of prophecy and the category of “the signs of the times”, which Vatican II brought to light anew: “You know how to interpret the appearance of earth and sky; why then do you not know how to interpret the present time?” (Lk 12:56). In this saying of Jesus, the “signs of the times” must be understood as the path He was taking, indeed it must be understood as Jesus Himself. To interpret the signs of the times in the light of faith means to recognize the presence of Christ in every age. In the private revelations approved by the Church—and therefore also in Fatima—this is the point: they help us to understand the signs of the times and to respond to them rightly in faith.

Anyway,

Again the idea isn’t to predict the future. Or to add anything to what already was said or exists. Nor is it to take away from a revealed truth either. It is to able to gauge correctly what was said and to use it to serve the faith in a productive manner for the future. Becuase it relates to this time, this decade.

In the case of Fatima. I see the importance in the Reparation of Sin and the Rosary and the continued establishment of Mary in faith.

So the point really isn’t what will happen with Gods will in the future. He is beyond our scope of understanding and time. A destiny He already knows to be sure. Still through Fatima theres a window, a way to see the forest from above the trees. This is what relates directly back to what “I Have To Do, as opposed to What I Should Do”.

Christ at Fatima is the one through the Holy Spirit who wish’s to venerate Mary. I agree I believe its a worthy cause.

Should one become rooted in Christology through daily Mass or however this may occur is fine. Yet it doesn’t reduce what is being encouraged by God for the welfare of mankind nor should it. Theres no need to escalate to the aaumption of what might or when it will happen, those are unknowns. Yet the simple concept of reap and sow comes into play.

As mentioned above I’m probly high with a statistical guess from observation in Rosary recitation. Should the numbers decrease and the numbers decrease with Saturday Reparation, it certainly would be a sign. Is there a proper veneration now? I couldn’t begin to say. Yet I would only promote and suggest the practice in both case’s. To me that just makes good sense.

The argument isn’t the point of one Has to Do. Thers a big difference from what one has to do and what one Should Do though.

 

[Cecilianus]

Yes the reality of what one must do and what one should do is the topic.

Its understood in the Catholic Church you don not have to Pray the Rosary and Our Lady of Fatima Feast Mass is not a Holy Day of obligation… Though initially it was elevated to a 2nd Class Feast day by Pope Pius. Which would have made it an obligation had it not been suppressed.

So once the suppression occured, and no its not an obligation.

OK…we reached this point in agreement?

No. Our Lady of Fatima is a feast only in the Roman Church, not in the Byzantine Church.

Now what I am saying really has zero to do with obligation. I am referring to what over 2-million Catholics still feel is relevant in this time. As Pope Benedict XVI mentions in his last book “Light of the World” and in his May 13th 2010 Homily.

Also here is what Benedict XVI had to say about…

Private Revelations and specifically of Fatima.

In every age the Church has received the charism of prophecy, which must be scrutinized. The prophetic word is a warning or a consolation, or both together. In this sense there is a link between the charism of prophecy and the category of “the signs of the times”, which Vatican II brought to light anew: “You know how to interpret the appearance of earth and sky; why then do you not know how to interpret the present time?” (Lk 12:56). In this saying of Jesus, the “signs of the times” must be understood as the path He was taking, indeed it must be understood as Jesus Himself. To interpret the signs of the times in the light of faith means to recognize the presence of Christ in every age. In the private revelations approved by the Church—and therefore also in Fatima—this is the point: they help us to understand the signs of the times and to respond to them rightly in faith.

You’re not getting the point that this is an affair of the Roman Church, that she was speaking to the Roman Church, and that Pope Benedict was speaking to the Roman Church. Has nothing to do with us. The Church teaches that private revelations are only obligatory to those to whom they are addressed.

Anyway,

Again the idea isn’t to predict the future. Or to add anything to what already was said or exists. Nor is it to take away from a revealed truth either. It is to able to gauge correctly what was said and to use it to serve the faith in a productive manner for the future. Becuase it relates to this time, this decade.

In the case of Fatima. I see the importance in the Reparation of Sin and the Rosary and the continued establishment of Mary in faith.

So the point really isn’t what will happen with Gods will in the future. He is beyond our scope of understanding and time. A destiny He already knows to be sure. Still through Fatima theres a window, a way to see the forest from above the trees. This is what relates directly back to what “I Have To Do, as opposed to What I Should Do”.

Christ at Fatima is the one through the Holy Spirit who wish’s to venerate Mary. I agree I believe its a worthy cause.

Should one become rooted in Christology through daily Mass or however this may occur is fine. Yet it doesn’t reduce what is being encouraged by God for the welfare of mankind nor should it. Theres no need to escalate to the aaumption of what might or when it will happen, those are unknowns. Yet the simple concept of reap and sow comes into play.

As mentioned above I’m probly high with a statistical guess from observation in Rosary recitation. Should the numbers decrease and the numbers decrease with Saturday Reparation, it certainly would be a sign. Is there a proper veneration now? I couldn’t begin to say. Yet I would only promote and suggest the practice in both case’s. To me that just makes good sense.

The argument isn’t the point of one Has to Do. Thers a big difference from what one has to do and what one Should Do though.

Again, you are speaking only to Roman Catholics here and referring to devotions which are specifically Roman Catholic. I don’t even know what Saturday Reparation is. I try to pray and fast and be as good a Christian as I can - the plethora of practices and devotions in the Roman Church is just confusing to me, and detracts from the simplicity of Christian life.

I would say it’s fine if you said all of this - perhaps in a less militant tone than is coming off over the internet - to Roman Catholics. Brother David isn’t one, and neither am I.

 

[Seamus_L]

The Blessed Mother appears to three children in Portugal with a message for the entire world, but that doesn’t include Eastern Catholics because Latinizations are verboten and this one comes from a Latin Rite country therefore it must be considered a Latinization.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I would say it’s fine if you said all of this - perhaps in a less militant tone than is coming off over the internet - to Roman Catholics. Brother David isn’t one, and neither am I.

---

OOooooKay,

Militant? Sounds like Bobby Seals and the Black Panthers, ya, that wouldn’t be me.

Davids religious practice nor yours is in question, I have no doubt you have a deep faith. The “motives” are what I question.

Sort of like going to the doctor and he prescribes you Penicillin for an infection. Your going to take the medicine, No? You don’t have to, but you should.

Same thing with the Holy Spirit, Christ and Mary are saying… here’s your presciption. You going to take the medicine? You don’t have to, but you should.

Anyway,

I never looked at the difference in the catechism of orthodox as opposed to catholic. Seem very similiar to me? I mean I see the obvious differences, but overall I see the larger similarities.

We all have the same fears, share the same tears and die in so many years. My intention isn’t to hurt your feelings or Davids for that matter. The incessant idea that you don’t have to take the penicillin leaves me in wonder though. Why wouldn’t you take the penicillin?

Now you’ll think I’m trying to convert ya, which I"m not, and you’ll say… I don’t want the DARN Penicillin:shrug: lol

God Bless, GT

 

[KarenElissa]

Sort of like going to the doctor and he prescribes you Penicillin for an infection. Your going to take the medicine, No? You don’t have to, but you should.

Same thing with the Holy Spirit, Christ and Mary are saying… here’s your presciption. You going to take the medicine? You don’t have to, but you should.

To continue your analogy, I don’t think anyone here is saying don’t take an antibiotic (ie never praying). What is being said is that we don’t necessarily have to take amoxicillin when azithromycin might work just as well or better for that particular person (ie, one doesn’t have to pray the Rosary when other things like the LOTH, Divine Mercy, chotki might “work” just as well or better for that person).