The doctrine of Rapture is one more false doctrine

[MaggieOH]

Scene: There is a crowd in a big stadium and they have come to hear a well known preacher, known for his fiery sermons. Tonight he has been on fire, telling the crowd to look at the signs that point to the End Times: fires, volcano eruptions, floods, famine, earthquakes, tsunami, and other natural disasters. There have been wars in nearly all corners of the globe and there have been rumours of war (the claims relating to possession of chemical weapons by unfriendly nations). The crowd knows that the world is on alert. The preacher persists in creating tension with his scenes of disaster and what else could befall the world. The tension increases and people become afraid of what they might face in the future.

The preacher then screams at the crowd that they do not have to fear because all they have to do is embrace Christ and they will be among the elect who will be Raptured in the near future when Christ comes on the cloud. He then says, all who remain will face a Tribulation like no other. The crowd is invited to come forward and accept Christ as their Lord and Saviour. Thousands move forward out of fear of the unknown.

However, are these people being conned into believing that they will not suffer on this earth? Is anything that the preacher said even Scriptural?

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the origins of the Rapture theory. In other words can it be proved from Scripture? I believe that the Rapture theory as it is presented in Dispensationalism is a modern false doctrine that needs to be challenged. There are some who claim themselves to be Christians and they are attempting to work towards having the temple in Jerusalem being rebuilt despite the Scriptural evidence that the Temple age of animal sacrifice is gone forever.

I believe that a lot of people are being led astray because of unnecessary fear over what might or might not happen in or lifetime.

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

The poll is mutiple choice

MaggieOH

 

[edwinG]

MaggieOH:

The poll is mutiple choice

MaggieOH

Hi Maggie,
Christ does not come back until “1000” years plus “a little while” after the tribulation.
Tribulation has not yet come upon us.
Christians will not be spared from tribulation but the opposite. It is for our glory. Those Christians who do not deny Christ during this time, but die rather than give Him up will live and reign with Him for the “1000” plus years and " a little while" These Christians will not face the second death, the Lake of Fire.
A rapture, yes, on Christ’s return. The heavens and the earth will be melted, and new ones formed. Both the just and the unjust will be raptured, held safe, before judgment then judgment and new heavens and a new earth.
The popular conception of Christians being raptured to save them from tribulation is to me a fallacy. Christians face tribulation to testify to their love in Christ and therefore dont face the 2nd death, having already proved their position in Christ by not denying Him during tribulation.
Walk in love Maggie
edwinG

 

[MaggieOH]

edwinG:

Hi Maggie,
Christ does not come back until “1000” years plus “a little while” after the tribulation.
Tribulation has not yet come upon us.
Christians will not be spared from tribulation but the opposite. It is for our glory. Those Christians who do not deny Christ during this time, but die rather than give Him up will live and reign with Him for the “1000” plus years and " a little while" These Christians will not face the second death, the Lake of Fire.
A rapture, yes, on Christ’s return. The heavens and the earth will be melted, and new ones formed. Both the just and the unjust will be raptured, held safe, before judgment then judgment and new heavens and a new earth.
The popular conception of Christians being raptured to save them from tribulation is to me a fallacy. Christians face tribulation to testify to their love in Christ and therefore dont face the 2nd death, having already proved their position in Christ by not denying Him during tribulation.
Walk in love Maggie
edwinG

Hi Edwin,

I am pleased that you have made a comment and have stated where you stand. I can assure you that on this subject we are in total agreement.

There are some variances in what we understand, especially with regard to interpreting the 1000 years. I see that as a perfect number.

God Bless
MaggieOH

 

[adstrinity]

Let me just tell you, though, God works in mysterious ways. I was an Athiest until I was 12 or so, and, until I was 12 or 13, I went through public schooling. Well, that didn’t work out, so, I went to a Full Gospel church/school (religiously anti-Catholic) to complete my 7th & 8th grade education. In 8th grade, we studied the Bible (All 66 Books ) BUT, as a 7th grader, we were invited to watch these HORRIBLE HORRIBLE b-class Rapture movies (There’s four in the series, which begins with “A Theif in the Night”, just in case you all are interested.)…WHICH SCARED THE HELL OUT OF ME!! – litereally. I kept thinking, 'If you are so sure that there is no God & the Christians have it wrong, why are you so scared? " Needless to say, I became Christian REALLY quick after that (w/in two weeks). Point being, if it wasn’t for that, me becomming a Christian like that, who knows if I would be Catholic now.

Something that everybody has to remember is that Protestantism is a stepping stone…but, it is not THE ROCK!!

Incidentally, when I watched those movies a year later, as a Christian, I couldn’t believe they actually scared me. They are so lame.

The above was to answer the “leading people astray” part. I DO believe however, that they are wrong. I mean, this theory has only been around since, what, the 1850s? AND, I read it in a book, that, think how insulting that is to Christians in, say, China or Moslem countries. That Jesus will come back to spare his followers…and yet WHAT goes on to the Faithful in those countries?

 

[MaggieOH]

adstrinity:

Let me just tell you, though, God works in mysterious ways. I was an Athiest until I was 12 or so, and, until I was 12 or 13, I went through public schooling. Well, that didn’t work out, so, I went to a Full Gospel church/school (religiously anti-Catholic) to complete my 7th & 8th grade education. In 8th grade, we studied the Bible (All 66 Books ) BUT, as a 7th grader, we were invited to watch these HORRIBLE HORRIBLE b-class Rapture movies (There’s four in the series, which begins with “A Theif in the Night”, just in case you all are interested.)…WHICH SCARED THE HELL OUT OF ME!! – litereally. I kept thinking, 'If you are so sure that there is no God & the Christians have it wrong, why are you so scared? " Needless to say, I became Christian REALLY quick after that (w/in two weeks). Point being, if it wasn’t for that, me becomming a Christian like that, who knows if I would be Catholic now.

Something that everybody has to remember is that Protestantism is a stepping stone…but, it is not THE ROCK!!

Incidentally, when I watched those movies a year later, as a Christian, I couldn’t believe they actually scared me. They are so lame.

The above was to answer the “leading people astray” part. I DO believe however, that they are wrong. I mean, this theory has only been around since, what, the 1850s? AND, I read it in a book, that, think how insulting that is to Christians in, say, China or Moslem countries. That Jesus will come back to spare his followers…and yet WHAT goes on to the Faithful in those countries?

It is also what happens after the conversion. It is good that you did convert, but it was a conversion that was done out of fear. How can you say that you were fully prepared to become a Christian if you had such a rapid “conversion”? Yes, I know, three thousand early Christians were baptized on the one day, but, how many of those who became Christian that day had in fact heard Jesus whilst he went around in his public ministry? How many were already drawn to Him?

BTW it was a great testimony of conversion.

MaggieOH

 

[AndyF]

MaggieOH:

However, are these people being conned into believing that they will not suffer on this earth?

Conned into disobeying Christ.

MaggieOH:

Is anything that the preacher said even Scriptural?

Yes, any reference to people to be avoided. We are not to look for signs, besides, what the preacher is describing is temporal and Jesus says they will occur. In history these bible thumpers simply don’t get it. We are to ensure this day is lived as a gift to God. It is today that matters, and we are not to concern ourselves for tomorrow as todays problems are sufficient for today.

Andy

 

[mkw]

The Rapture Theory?..Nonsense and “bunk”. Why ANY Christian, Catholic or Protestant should waste their time worrying about it seems silly to me. The only rapture I believe in is the one that happens to each of us at out individual death, when our souls meets Jesus at judgement. I will be ready for that one, by receiving the sacraments and living a life pleasing to God, at the very least, always striving to live as Jesus taught.

MaggieOH, as an aside to a comment you made about “rapid conversion”. I lived 40 years an atheist, then in June of 2003 (second week) the Blessed Mother “talked” to my heart. Third Week June of same year I was in priest office. Fourth week june, signed up for RCIA.

Recieved into Holy Mother Church, Easter Vigil 2004. Now I am on the RCIA team, lived my Cursillo, am an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion and will be organizing our parishes mission n the Enthronment of the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

Rapid Conversions happen…God can move fast or slow (our time not HIS)… When the Blessed Mother wants to lead you to her Son, she is impossible to say no to. Praise be to God.

BTW…did ya catch the year of my conversion?..This Easter Vigil will make ONE YEAR that I have been fully received into Holy Mother Church…And Yes,My head is still spinning with excitment. :whacky: :bounce:

 

[Scott_Lafrance]

http://www.btinternet.com/~tonyrichardson/horse.gif

 

[awalt]

Here is a good article debunking the myth of Rapture, plus it describes pretty specifically what the Church believes - some subtle differences to some of the opinions here…

http://www.catholic.com/library/false_profit.asp

 

[adstrinity]

MaggieOH:

It is also what happens after the conversion. It is good that you did convert, but it was a conversion that was done out of fear. How can you say that you were fully prepared to become a Christian if you had such a rapid “conversion”?
BTW it was a great testimony of conversion.
MaggieOH

Well, see, one of the things they teach you is that THIS IS GOING TO HAPPEN ANY MINUTE!!! I’m sure you’ve seen those bumper stickers, “In Case of Rapture, Car Will be Driverless” or something like that. …Guess I didn’t want to be left behind. It took me two weeks of trying to fight off that nagging feeling before I finally caved in. Dreading the pains of hell may have had something to do with it, I believe.

 

[ppcpilot]

I wonder what the term ‘near’ means in the biblical sense? Was reading 1 Peter last night, and he says that the end is near…some other letters allude to that, too, that the end of time is near…this was 2000 years ago…

Either that, or what does ‘end of the world’ mean? If it was the end of Jerusalem, then everything has come to pass. We shouldn’t even base our view of the end times on Revelation. I guess it will be like Boom! uh oh…

Do you think that there will be an Anti-Christ, and mark of the beast, and whore of babylon?

 

[awalt]

I tell ya, I’ll probably be stoned or something but I read every one of the “Left Behind” series by Tim LaHaye. I have read the articles on this site about his teachings and questionable background, but I tell you if you go into it thinking this is fiction the books are extremely entertaining and he develops the characters well. As I said on another thread, as I read things happening, it gave me motivation to say to myself “what’s the truth?”, so I read in the CCC, Bible, and Catholic web sites to find out the truth. My understanding of Revelation is a ton better now. And if anything, after reading all that I firmly believe I don’t want to spend a lot of time worrying about the end of the world, I have enough to deal with taking care of myself and my sinful ways .

I don’t see anything wrong with reading this stuff for entertainment if you know the difference and/or don’t let it afect your beliefs. It’s fiction. And I think it sure beats reading the violent, profane, lewd novels that seem to be so pervasive - it’s hard to find something to read for relaxation.

 

[BibleReader]

Hi, MaggieOH.

Since twice now you have answered my responses by claiming that I am “hijacking” the thread, I will no longer respond to any of your posts. That way, there will be no risk of any sort that I am “hijacking.”

You are welcome to comment on threads I originate, however, since, of course, as thread originator, I am the only one who can define what comprises “hijacking.”
You don’t have to fear that I will accuse you of “hijacking” anything, my friend.

BibleReader

 

[BibleReader]

Hi, MaggieOH.

Since a few times now you have answered my responses by claiming that I am “hijacking” the thread, I will no longer respond to any of your posts. That way, there will be no risk of any sort that I am “hijacking.”

You are welcome to comment on threads I originate, however, since, of course, as thread originator, I am the only one who can define what comprises “hijacking.” I will not actually answer your posts, however, since doing so is too problematic.

You don’t have to fear that I will accuse you of “hijacking” anything, my friend.

BibleReader

 

[MaggieOH]

mkw:

The Rapture Theory?..Nonsense and “bunk”. Why ANY Christian, Catholic or Protestant should waste their time worrying about it seems silly to me. The only rapture I believe in is the one that happens to each of us at out individual death, when our souls meets Jesus at judgement. I will be ready for that one, by receiving the sacraments and living a life pleasing to God, at the very least, always striving to live as Jesus taught.

MaggieOH, as an aside to a comment you made about “rapid conversion”. I lived 40 years an atheist, then in June of 2003 (second week) the Blessed Mother “talked” to my heart. Third Week June of same year I was in priest office. Fourth week june, signed up for RCIA.

Recieved into Holy Mother Church, Easter Vigil 2004. Now I am on the RCIA team, lived my Cursillo, am an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion and will be organizing our parishes mission n the Enthronment of the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

Rapid Conversions happen…God can move fast or slow (our time not HIS)… When the Blessed Mother wants to lead you to her Son, she is impossible to say no to. Praise be to God.

BTW…did ya catch the year of my conversion?..This Easter Vigil will make ONE YEAR that I have been fully received into Holy Mother Church…And Yes,My head is still spinning with excitment. :whacky: :bounce:

This is one excellent conversion story. Thanks for sharing this story.

Yes, true rapid conversions do and can happen, but the scene that I set up is not a true conversion, unless of course the person who has been so fearful then takes the time to consider all of the facts and then leaves that particular sect behind.

Praise be to God that Mary spoke to your heart and congratulations on your conversion.

 

[MaggieOH]

awalt:

I tell ya, I’ll probably be stoned or something but I read every one of the “Left Behind” series by Tim LaHaye. I have read the articles on this site about his teachings and questionable background, but I tell you if you go into it thinking this is fiction the books are extremely entertaining and he develops the characters well. As I said on another thread, as I read things happening, it gave me motivation to say to myself “what’s the truth?”, so I read in the CCC, Bible, and Catholic web sites to find out the truth. My understanding of Revelation is a ton better now. And if anything, after reading all that I firmly believe I don’t want to spend a lot of time worrying about the end of the world, I have enough to deal with taking care of myself and my sinful ways .

I don’t see anything wrong with reading this stuff for entertainment if you know the difference and/or don’t let it afect your beliefs. It’s fiction. And I think it sure beats reading the violent, profane, lewd novels that seem to be so pervasive - it’s hard to find something to read for relaxation.

Awalt,

you will not be stoned (this time) because you have realised that these books are fiction, however there are hundreds of thousands of people who believe that this is true. They do in fact live in fear of being left behind.

Thanks again for sharing your story. It is really enlightening to hear from those who had been conned by the false Rapture doctrine and who have since discovered the truth.

MaggieOH

 

[MaggieOH]

ppcpilot:

I wonder what the term ‘near’ means in the biblical sense? Was reading 1 Peter last night, and he says that the end is near…some other letters allude to that, too, that the end of time is near…this was 2000 years ago…

Either that, or what does ‘end of the world’ mean? If it was the end of Jerusalem, then everything has come to pass. We shouldn’t even base our view of the end times on Revelation. I guess it will be like Boom! uh oh…

Do you think that there will be an Anti-Christ, and mark of the beast, and whore of babylon?

PPC,

When attempting to understand what is written in apocalyptic literature you do need to have some idea of the genre of literature as well as the historical times.

Yes, the prophecy of Jesus, and of Daniel came to pass when Jerusalem was sacked by the Romans. HOWEVER…

There is always an element of Scripture that relates in some way to the future. At this point in time we need to do remember that Jesus told us “You will not know the day or the hour when I will return”. There is nothing in the Scripture to substantiate any form of guess work as to when the End Times to end all End Times will be upon us.

Therefore, we do need to put Scripture into its historical perspective before getting caught up in what might or might not happen in the future. You ask several questions regarding the Antichrist, the Whore of Babylon and the mark of the Beast.

Well, I think that one can define the Antichrist in the following way:

"Children, these are the last days;
you were told that an Antichrist must come,
and now several antichrists have already appeared…
The man who denies that Jesus is the Christ -
he is the liar,
He is the Antichrist;
and he is denying the Father as well as the Son,
because no one who has the Father can deny the Son,
and to acknowledge the Son is to have the Father as well. " (1 John 2: 18-23)

The true Antichrist is Satan. He alone is the man of sin. However, there continue to be antichrists and last century we saw several of these antichrists make their appearance. They are the ones who cultivate the culture of death. It would not be hard to p(name removed by moderator)oint two very likely suspects as fitting the description given by St. John through the ages: Mohammed and Joseph Smith. In both cases they denied that Jesus is the Son of God. There are many others that do the same. The fact is, if you try very hard you will come up with dozens of names and examples of antichrist. I, for example would nominate those who support atheism as antichrist, because atheism is a system that denies both Father Father, Son and Holy Spirit. As such I would have to nominate Marx, Lenin, Stalin and all who have helped to spread Communism throughout the world, because the Communists attempted to wipe out Christianity and belief in God.

Now what about the Mark of the Beast? Well, again I think that you have to work of the historical perspective first. Yet on the Spiritual level I would have to guess that the mark of the Beast is best explained as the mark of sin. Anything else, especially the talk of barcodes or microchips being inserted is an attempt to take people away from worship of God.

That leaves one more point - the whore of Babylon. Again the starting point is the historical setting. Babylon is the codeword for Rome. It was understood by the early Christians as a reference to pagan Rome because the behaviour of the pagan Romans was a reminder of the behaviour of the Babylonians when the Jews were in exile in Babylon. At the same time the Christians were in exile because the Jews in Jerusalem (prior to the fall) had persecuted the Christians and they had to flee. Again this is just the starting point for understanding and at least putting the Book of Revelation into its historical setting. Then as you shift into the future there are certainly other parallels that can be drawn until you reach our own time.

The possibility that Jerusalem is the Whore of Babylon referred to by John is not beyond acceptance. The Jews had attempted to keep the Romans on side whilst attempting to continue to persecute the Christians, and then the Romans turned on the Jews in A.D. 70. The Whore of Babylon is one who sells herself out to others. Is this happening today? I think that there is ample world wide evidence to pin point a sell out to the culture of death.

Does that mean that we are in the mother of all End Times? No. Yet the possibility of being in an end time as we know it is very real. However, look again at what John wrote for his own time:

“Children, these are the last days”…

What did he mean? I think that he was indeed referring to events that were happening around him, including the sacking of Jerusalem, but perhaps something else as well.

The point is, we should follow what Jesus said to us… “Be prepared” and “Stay awake”.

MaggieOH

 

[Absalom]

You all should check out John Martignoni’s talk on the Rapture. You can find it at www.biblechristiansociety.com. I think it puts a pretty definitive nail in the Left Behind coffin.

 

[MaggieOH]

Absalom!:

You all should check out John Martignoni’s talk on the Rapture. You can find it at www.biblechristiansociety.com. I think it puts a pretty definitive nail in the Left Behind coffin.

Is it available in writing on the website?

MaggieOH