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panner
Guest
I am sorry too if I came across as rude.
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benidict
Guest
Yes, I am going to look into it further. thanks for the references. Check out the daniel thread too, barboza has some interesting insights into what another Adventist has stated. I think we are actually making some headway, into what they truly believe. to my knowledge this is the first time since ive been on the forums that this has happened, and we are getting to the root of some matters. They are making some very startleing statements.
Peace
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jlhargus
Guest
JL: What was the state of Adam before he received the breath of life? Non-existence! Adam did not come into existance when his body was formed from the dust. At that point it was only a sculpture of dust. Adam only came into existance when God breathed the breath of life into his body.
Christ reveals man’s soul IS spirit, a HUMAN BEING is BOTH body AND soul, you can’t be a living HUMAN BEING without BOTH. A body only is a corps and a soul only is a disembodied spirit of a human being. Mt10:28 Do not be afraid of those who KILL THE BODY but CANNOT KILL THE SOUL. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy BOTH soul AND body in hell.
In Mt10:28 Christ also reveals when the body dies the soul lives on and only God has judgment over the soul, [Hb9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:, [Eccl12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.] The body which God created from dust, returns to dust. The spirt which God breathed into Adam is immortal and returns to God who gave it.
If the soul was the body why would Jesus make a distintion between BOTH the BODY and SOUL? If the soul is the person, how could the soul go out of it’s self? [Gn35:18 And AS HER SOUL (NEPHESH) WAS DEPARTING (for she died), she called his name Ben-o’ni; but his father called his name Benjamin.] How could it come back into a person if it is THE person? [1Kgs 17:21 Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried to the Lord, O Lord my God, let this child’s SOUL (NEPHESH) come into him again. 23 And the Lord listened to the voice of Elijah; and the SOUL (NEPHESH) of the child CAME INTO HIM AGAIN, and he revived.] [Strongs Concordance, CAPS and (nephesh), added].
[Acts 2:31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HADES, NOR did HIS FLESH SEE CORRUPTION. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.] If the soul is the body=flesh and Hades the grave, there would be no need to distinguish between either, but the scripture does distinguish saying his soul NOR his flesh, it could have easily said, “his soul was not left in Hades nor saw corruption, that would clearly show they are one and the same. Instead the scriptures show two components, soul and flesh, Just as Christ reveals in Mt10:28.
[Mt10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy BOTH soul AND body in hell.] The word for HELL in this verse is GEHENNA, which would be the lake of fire as BOTH body AND soul are thrown in and that is done after the resurrection. The souls of the unjust are now in Sheol=Hebrew, Hades=Greek or Hell=English. Christ reveals in Lazarus and the rich man the unjust souls go into a fire of torment in Sheol. The English word HELL is generically used for Sheol, Hades and Gehenna, properly Gehenna is called the lake of fire, which is still hell.
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Marsha_Adams
Guest
Notice that here Paul clearly differentiates between SPIRIT, SOUL and BODY.
I Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Even if breath and flesh make a living person, here St. Paul enters a third facet.
Hebrews 4 11 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
joints and marrow are not the same thing, thoughts and intents are not the same thing, ergo soul and spirit are not the same thing.
It is this third element that completely disrupts the SDA understanding of soul sleep. Yes, the breath (spirit) returns to God and the flesh turns to dust, but the soul does not cease to exist.
I Thessalonians 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Even if breath and flesh make a living person, here St. Paul enters a third facet.
Hebrews 4 11 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
joints and marrow are not the same thing, thoughts and intents are not the same thing, ergo soul and spirit are not the same thing.
It is this third element that completely disrupts the SDA understanding of soul sleep. Yes, the breath (spirit) returns to God and the flesh turns to dust, but the soul does not cease to exist.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Great post Marsha Adams and jlhargus;
I have a question? Does anyone know?, if one believes in “soul sleep”? also believe in “Angels” and demons?
If yes? how does a soul sleep belief justify the existance of Angels and demons from the 9 choirs of angels detailed from scripture?
How does a human flesh without an eternal soul (saved Christian) battle against the evil power and principalities without a living soul? How does matter alone (flesh without an eternal soul) fight against eternal beings (spirits)?
If obedience to the law grants blessings in life (flesh) and death eternal if you break the covenant law, what did Jesus come to save? Mud?= (dust and water = human flesh) or the eternal soul of man from eternal death (seperation from God)?
(Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with the principalities, with the powers, with the world rulers of this present darkness, with the evil spirits in the heavens.)
I have a question? Does anyone know?, if one believes in “soul sleep”? also believe in “Angels” and demons?
If yes? how does a soul sleep belief justify the existance of Angels and demons from the 9 choirs of angels detailed from scripture?
How does a human flesh without an eternal soul (saved Christian) battle against the evil power and principalities without a living soul? How does matter alone (flesh without an eternal soul) fight against eternal beings (spirits)?
If obedience to the law grants blessings in life (flesh) and death eternal if you break the covenant law, what did Jesus come to save? Mud?= (dust and water = human flesh) or the eternal soul of man from eternal death (seperation from God)?
(Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not with flesh and blood but with the principalities, with the powers, with the world rulers of this present darkness, with the evil spirits in the heavens.)
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CMatt25
Guest
My Adventist friends do not share your faith in the ECFs though so to them I don’t believe it is heresy.Hi Panner. Could we conclude then, from the ECFs that this is not just an ancient belief, but an ancient heresy? I just want to be sure I am reading them correctly. thank you Peace
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Marsha_Adams
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Gabriel:
SDAs do believe in angels and demons (fallen angels). As for all the rest of your questions, darn if I know.
The problem with SDA theology (in my opinion) is that it doesn’t seem to be all that well thought out.
SDAs do believe in angels and demons (fallen angels). As for all the rest of your questions, darn if I know.
The problem with SDA theology (in my opinion) is that it doesn’t seem to be all that well thought out.
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
That is good to know, not all is lost here; thanks. So if man lives in his flesh without an eternal soul (according to those holding to a soul sleep) with angels and demons around him, the “deluge” never happened and Adam and Eve could of never sinned against God.
The more I try to grasp this soul sleep the further I get from Jesus Christ. Thanks again Marsha
God bless you
The more I try to grasp this soul sleep the further I get from Jesus Christ. Thanks again Marsha
God bless you
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kja
Guest
Hi jlhargus
I appreciate the time you took to give me your take on this subject however as I said you dont need to as I already understand your side as I was once there. I dont really want to debate this subject Im simply here to show you my interpretation of scripture. God bless
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benidict
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Too bad, as some of those ECFs were desciples of the apostles, and KNEW what the apostles taught.
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benidict
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CMatt25
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Perhaps if they indeed understood or didn’t get something penned wrong.Too bad, as some of those ECFs were desciples of the apostles, and KNEW what the apostles taught.
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jlhargus
Guest
JL: Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, NEITHER have they ANY more a REWARD; for the memory of them is FORGOTTEN. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; NEITHER HAVE THEY ANY MORE A PORTION FOR EVER IN ANYTHING that is DONE UNDER THE SUN.
If Solomon is speaking of eternal things after death instead of things UNDER THE SUN, he is saying THEY HAVE NO MORE REWARD after death and God will have no memory of the dead. That would mean NO RESURRECTION, no more reward. Yet we know, thru Christ, there is remembrance of the dead and more reward, THE RESSURRECTION, as Christ irrefutably revealed. We also know thru Christ after death the dead do KNOW, read Lk16:19-31 Lazarus and the rich man. There Christ tells us of the souls of two bodily dead men. One being comforted and one being in torment.
[Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, WHEN HE ASCENDED UP on high, HE LED CAPTIVITY CAPTIVE, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that HE ALSO DESCENDED FIRST INTO the LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH? 1Pt4:6 For for this cause was the GOSPEL PREACHED ALSO TO THEM THAT ARE DEAD, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.]
Paul reveals of himself in [2Cor 5:8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be AWAY FROM the BODY and at HOME WITH THE LORD.] We now see, after the ascension of Christ, spirits of just men made perfect in heaven Hb12:23. And the soul being aware after bodily death, as the NT solidly reveals, Mt10:28 man can’t kill the soul, Lk 16:25 Lazarus and the rich man, speaking to Abraham, all bodily dead, Mt 22:32 God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, God of the living not the dead, Mk 9:4 Moses & Elias speaking to Jesus, Rv 6:9 dead martyrs speaking, 1Pt 3:19 bodily dead Christ preaches to spirits, Rv 4:4 twenty four elders souls of men in heaven. Lk 15:10 In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents. [Who rejoices in the PRESENCE of angels? The spirits of just men made perfect in the heavenly Jerusalem.
CMatt25;7562115 said:
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jlhargus
Guest
JL: Depends on context, by the way what is that spark of life only God can give you mention above and I put in bold print? Nephesh=soul is used different ways in scripture, Gn 2:7 living creature=whole person, Ps 42:2 seat of emotion, and immortal soul in Mt10:28, Gn35:18. Jer51:14 The LORD of hosts hath sworn by HIMSELF (NEPHESH),… Amos 6:8 The Lord GOD hath sworn by HIMSELF (NEPHESH)…, Job23:13 But he is in one mind and who can turn him? And what his SOUL (NEPHESH) desireth, even that he doeth. Ps11:5 The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his SOUL (NEPHESH) hateth. In this context, speaking of God himself, nothing could be more conscious, immortal or spiritual than nephesh. [1Kgs 17:21 Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried to the Lord, O Lord my God, let this child’s SOUL (NEPHESH) come into him again. 23 And the Lord listened to the voice of Elijah; and the SOUL (NEPHESH) of the child came into him again, and he revived. Gn35:18 And AS HER SOUL (NEPHESH) was departing (for she died), she called his name Ben-o’ni; but his father called his name Benjamin.] [Strongs Concordance, CAPS and (nephesh), added]
Christ tells us the SOUL DOES LIVE after the body is killed. If man IS A SOUL, then how is it that Christ thinks man’s nature is BOTH body AND soul? [Mt10:28 Do not be afraid of those WHO KILL THE BODY **but CANNOT KILL THE SOUL. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy BOTH soul AND body in hell.] If man IS A SOUL then man is able to kill the soul. That’s contrary to what Christ tells us in scripture. Christ tells us man CANNOT KILL THE SOUL, only God has judgement and disposition over the soul.
JL: Yes the soul (life force, God breathed) in man is spirit that’s why we are different from animals. And yes both BODY and SOUL are integral parts of ONE BEING called a HUMAN BEING, man. A human body without a soul (spirit) is a corps and a soul (spirit) without a body is a disembodied spirit. [Jms 2:26 For as the BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD, so faith without works is dead also.] Man is not complete without BOTH body AND soul. A human being is both corporal and spiritual, angels are spiritual only, animals are corporal only
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jlhargus
Guest
JL: Again CONTEXT defines the meaning. God IS SPIRIT, is he only air, which is a created substance?. I have no problem with Eph4:23, 1Cor5:3-4, Col2:5 the context makes the meaning clear. Paul is also very clear in
[2Cor5:4 For WE THAT ARE IN THIS **TABERNACLE DO GROAN, being burdened: NOT for THAT WE WOULD BE UNCLOTHED, BUT CLOTHED upon, THAT MORTALITY MIGHT BE SWALLOWED UP OF LIFE. 9 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, KNOWING that, WHILST WE ARE AT HOME IN THE BODY, we ARE ABSENT FROM THE LORD: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight: ) 8 WE ARE confident, I say, and WILLING rather TO BE ABSENT FROM THE BODY, and TO BE PRESENT WITH THE LORD.] The tabernacle Paul is speaking of is our body. So what would be ABSENT from the body and present with the Lord if man does not have an immortal soul? Notice ABSENT FROM THE BODY.
[Phil1:21 FOR ME TO LIVE IS CHRIST, and TO DIE IS GAIN. 22 But **if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, HAVING A DESIRE TO DEPART, and to be with Christ; WHICH IS FAR BETTER: 24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.] Paul doesn’t say depart and be non-existent or to sleep in Christ till resurrected. He has a DESIRE to depart his BODY and be with the Lord. The time fram, would be when Paul is out of his body, between his bodily death and bodily resurrection, when he will be clothed again with his glorified resurrected body, just as Peter said refering to his death, he will put off this tabernacle (body), there must be something to put his tabernacle off of, which is his spirit (soul) [2Pt1:13 Yea, I think it meet, **as long as I am IN THIS TABERNACLE, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance; 14 **Knowing that SHORTLY I MUST PUT OFF this MY TABERNACLE **, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.]
JL: Eccl9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for THERE IS NO WORK, nor DEVICE, nor KNOWLEDGE, nor WISDOM, in the grave, whither thou goest.
[1Cor13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be **KNOWLEDGE, it SHALL VANISH AWAY.]
I like the way the AB puts it, knowledge will lose its value, superseded by truth, biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Cor13:8&version=AMP
In 1Cor3:8, it says KNOWLEDGE WILL PASS AWAY. Does KNOWLEDGE pass away when Christ returns, in the sense a person is not aware? --No, that would make the resurrected nothing more than zombies.-- Nor does KNOWLEDGE in Sheol pass away, in the sense the soul is not aware. We have evidence given by Christ’s own words, Lk16:19-31 Lazarus and the rich man. Two bodily dead men, one comforted and one in torment, in Sheol, where all souls went before Christ.
After one’s earthly pilgrimage, KNOWLEDGE has no value to decrease or increase reward or man’s fate. It is superseded by the truth, with the reality what one sowed UNDER THE SUN is now irreversibly reaped, good or bad. KNOWLEDGE has value only UNDER THE SUN were work, device, knowledge and wisdom can be employed, thru service to God and man, adding value and increase to one’s eternal reward. [Jn9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, **WHILE IT IS DAY: the NIGHT cometh, when NO MAN CAN WORK. Eccl9:10 whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might for there is no work, nor device, nor KNOWLEDGE, nor wisdom In the grave (SHEOL) whither thou goest]. What man knows and does with that knowledge, under the sun seals his fate, after death.
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jlhargus
Guest
JL: Yes the BODY of man and beast share the same fate, both go to one place and return to dust. You shouldn’t have stopped with verse 20, but continued reading verses 21&22, [Eccl 3:21 **WHO KNOWETH the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? 22 Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for **who shall bring him to see what shall be AFTER HIM? **
Solomon, although he says he doesn’t know, has expressed a belief in the possibility of a difference between the spirit of man and beast, who knows he says, whether the spirit of man goes up and the spirit of beasts goes down to earth. Solomon is more sure, where the spirit of man goes, when he writes later in [Eccl12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and THE SPIRIT SHALL RETURN UNTO GOD who gave it.] The dust it the body made from the dust, the spirit is man’s soul, which God breathed into Adam. Point is Solomon doesn’t have a fully developed knowledge and he says so. In OT times, they had an unclear understanding of life after death, as the writer clearly states, “WHO KNOWS”, WHO CAN BRING HIM TO SEE WHAT WILL BE AFTER HIM?’.
Eccl 10:14 A fool also is full of words: a man cannot tell what shall be; and what shall be AFTER him, WHO CAN TELL HIM?
We now know, who can bring him to see what will be after him. THE SAVIOR AND LIGHT OF THE WORLD, our Lord Jesus Christ, who reveals it. The OT can only be understood in the LIGHT of the NT. Christ our LIGHT revealed more clearly what happens after death. Still, even now, we see poorly and know in part, [1Cor13:12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known]. In Ecclesiastes the writer is speaking pessimistically, “all is vanity”, from an earthly view, as he says, “WHO KNOWS?” clearly showing the writer does not have a clear understanding of what happens after death. After Christ’s revelations we do know man’s lot is more than doing whatever pleases him under the sun. Man will give an account for his deeds done under the sun. After Christ’s revelations we do know, ALL DO NOT GO TO ONE PLACE. After Christ’s revelations we do know MAN HATH PRE-EMINENCE ABOVE A BEAST; for all is not vanity, what man does on earth has eternal consequences, what a beast does is of no eternal consequence.
JL: Bodies go to the same place they return to dust. The soul of man returns to God who gave it.
Hb 11:13-15 to summarize tells us the OT saints all died in faith, not receiving that promised, thereby they acknowledged they were strangers and exiles on the earth, seeking a homeland. Had they wanted they had opportunity to return to the land from which they came, but they desired a better country, that is a heavenly one. Hb11:16 …God: for he hath prepared for them a city. Hb 12 tells us, in summary, we have come to Mount Zion the heavenly Jerusalem, to angels, to a judge who is God of all, TO SPIRITS OF JUST MEN made perfect, to Jesus the mediator. Those OT saints and those who died before the resurrection, such as the theif on the cross, were those which our Lord, when he died bodily, descended in spirit into sheol where he preached to the spirit of those saints and when he ascended he took those spirits into the heavenly Jerusalem the city of the living God, Eph 4:8…When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,… . Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. Hb12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.
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CMatt25
Guest
JL, I’ll only say I tell my SDA friend our loved ones if in heaven know what could be in store for us if we are blessed to arrive there too. 
God bless and peace.
God bless and peace.
J
jlhargus
Guest
JL: I know I tend to go overboard, but that’s how I learn and clarify things in my mind.JL, I’ll only say I tell my SDA friend our loved ones if in heaven know what could be in store for us if we are blessed to arrive there too.
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fbl9
Guest
Ecc6:6 reads"…do not both go to the same place." which at the time of writing meant the land of the dead.
St.Matthew writes 27;52-54"…the souls of the saints that had fallen alseep arose…and after His resurection they appeared in the city."
Myself i am not sure of the Catholic teaching regarding the souls of those that died before Christ opening the gates of Heaven on His death.
Did not Christ tell His apostles that He would prepare a place for them?
Did not Christ say " today you will be in paradise with me" ?
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