the doctrine of soul sleep

[CMatt25]

Did not Christ say " today you will be in paradise with me" ?

“Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Except an SDA might say Jesus didn’t go to Paradise on that day. He went to the tomb. Or they might say the comma was misplaced and it should read, “Amen, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

That’s the thing with faith whether it is the Catholic faith or a non Catholic faith. Everyone has their faith beliefs and explanations.

Peace to you and to all along our faith walks. God bless.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

“Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Except an SDA might say Jesus didn’t go to Paradise on that day. He went to the tomb. Or they might say the comma was misplaced and it should read, “Amen, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

That’s the thing with faith whether it is the Catholic faith or a non Catholic faith. Everyone has their faith beliefs and explanations.

Peace to you and to all along our faith walks. God bless.

The problem with the SDA punctuation explanation is this:

“In actual Greek texts from the era when Koine [New Testament] Greek was used as a day-to-day language, Greek was written with no punctuation. The words ran together completely, with no spacing or markup. Accents, breathing marks, spaces, and other punctuation are added at a much later time, making texts easier to read.” Wikipedia

Also, Jesus is God. If the thief went directly to Paradise at his death he was in fact with God.

 

[panner]

I can see a counter argument that either a) Paradise wasn’t Heaven and/or b) God made an exception. That is from thinking

On Edit: I jus emailed Amazing Facts and ask them about Luke 23:43 and soul sleep.

 

[LiftHimUp]

“Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Except an SDA might say Jesus didn’t go to Paradise on that day. He went to the tomb. Or they might say the comma was misplaced and it should read, “Amen, I say to you today, you will be with me in Paradise.”

That’s the thing with faith whether it is the Catholic faith or a non Catholic faith. Everyone has their faith beliefs and explanations.

Peace to you and to all along our faith walks. God bless.

I have one for you. When did the thief die?

 

[LiftHimUp]

I can see a counter argument that either a) Paradise wasn’t Heaven and/or b) God made an exception. That is from thinking

On Edit: I jus emailed Amazing Facts and ask them about Luke 23:43 and soul sleep.

I have one for you. When did the thief die?

 

[fbl9]

I have one for you. When did the thief die?

The same day. Remeber the pharises wanted the crosses empty for the sabbath.The Gospel according to St.john 19:31"…That their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away."

 

[panner]

I have one for you. When did the thief die?

The same day. Remeber the pharises wanted the crosses empty for the sabbath.The Gospel according to St.john 19:31"…That their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away."

I agree it would be the same day

 

[Marsha_Adams]

The same day. Remeber the pharises wanted the crosses empty for the sabbath.The Gospel according to St.john 19:31"…That their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away."

If the thief was dead why break his legs? It took days for someone to die of crucifixion normally. They break their legs so that they could run away before the job was done. The only reason they didn’t break Jesus’ legs was that He was already dead.

 

[FaithJoy]

If the thief was dead why break his legs? It took days for someone to die of crucifixion normally. They break their legs so that they could run away before the job was done. The only reason they didn’t break Jesus’ legs was that He was already dead.

They broke their legs so they would die very fast. When one was crucified,the condemned person would lift themselves up with their feet/legs to breath because they couldn’t breathe in the “down” position.
As for soul sleep, there is no such thing. Jesus said to the Father,“Father into thy hands I commit my spirit” Luke 23:46. Therefore spirit goes to God.
But, having said that,I think there is great confusion on the definition of soul,spirit. Hebrew and English definitions are not the same. That’s why the CCC refers to the “spirit”(from Hebrew) as the “spiritual soul”.
SDA uses the Hebrew definitions strictly while reading the bible in English.You just can’t do that. You need to understand both languages and take that into account when reading in only one language.

 

[LiftHimUp]

The same day. Remeber the pharises wanted the crosses empty for the sabbath.The Gospel according to St.john 19:31"…That their legs might be broken and that they might be taken away."

Wrong. The bible never said when neither of them died except Jesus which is why His legs were not broken. If the bible never said when or what day they died, you can’t assume when they died. That brings me to my next point. Let’s say Jesus did go to heaven that day. Since you don’t know what day the thief died, you have to assume that Jesus left without him. Which means, if it was another day, that makes Jesus a liar. We know that Jesus isn’t a liar which leaves only one solution. If you don’t believe the comma theory here is an example of where one should have been place.

1. without the comma
   Acts 19:12** So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or apron**s, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
2. With the comma
   Acts 19:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick, handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Notice without the comma it says SICK HANDKERCHIEFS OR APRONS. Notice with the comma it separates sick from handkerchiefs or aprons making sick represent people. Here the comma changes the entire meaning of the scripture. We know that there aren’t sick handkerchiefs and aprons running around.

 

[panner]

It can be pretty much surmised when the two thief’s died on either side and it is very safe to say knowing the practices of the time that they died that night. Their legs were broken as was the Roman practice and along with Christ they would have been whisked down from the Cross before Sabbath.

Not everything that happened is going to be in Scripture, since the focus was primarily on Christ

 

[fbl9]

Wrong. The bible never said when neither of them died except Jesus which is why His legs were not broken. If the bible never said when or what day they died, you can’t assume when they died. That brings me to my next point. Let’s say Jesus did go to heaven that day. Since you don’t know what day the thief died, you have to assume that Jesus left without him. Which means, if it was another day, that makes Jesus a liar. We know that Jesus isn’t a liar which leaves only one solution. If you don’t believe the comma theory here is an example of where one should have been place.

1. without the comma
   Acts 19:12** So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or apron**s, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
2. With the comma
   Acts 19:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick, handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Notice without the comma it says SICK HANDKERCHIEFS OR APRONS. Notice with the comma it separates sick from handkerchiefs or aprons making sick represent people. Here the comma changes the entire meaning of the scripture. We know that there aren’t sick handkerchiefs and aprons running around.

Did your church put the comma in there? Did your church have anything to do with these words even being part of scripture? No and No.
Why did the pharisees’s want the legs broken? Read the scripture your church had no part of, “that they might be taken away.”
Why would Christ use the word “today” was He going to tell the theif something different tomorrow.? Or yesterday?

 

[fbl9]

Wrong. The bible never said when neither of them died except Jesus which is why His legs were not broken. If the bible never said when or what day they died, you can’t assume when they died. That brings me to my next point. Let’s say Jesus did go to heaven that day. Since you don’t know what day the thief died, you have to assume that Jesus left without him. Which means, if it was another day, that makes Jesus a liar. We know that Jesus isn’t a liar which leaves only one solution. If you don’t believe the comma theory here is an example of where one should have been place.

1. without the comma
   Acts 19:12** So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or apron**s, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
2. With the comma
   Acts 19:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick, handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Notice without the comma it says SICK HANDKERCHIEFS OR APRONS. Notice with the comma it separates sick from handkerchiefs or aprons making sick represent people. Here the comma changes the entire meaning of the scripture. We know that there aren’t sick handkerchiefs and aprons running around.

Perhaps you should look up the word crurifragium.

 

[LiftHimUp]

Did your church put the comma in there? Did your church have anything to do with these words even being part of scripture? No and No.
Why did the pharisees’s want the legs broken? Read the scripture your church had no part of, “that they might be taken away.”
Why would Christ use the word “today” was He going to tell the theif something different tomorrow.? Or yesterday?

So how would you explain Acts 19:12?

 

[fbl9]

So how would you explain Acts 19:12?

God blessed St.Paul to be so holy that even articles of sick where all he need to for God to heal the sick people. You never heard of mircles or you don’t beleive mircles can occur?
Neither of the two bibles i looked at had any commas where you put one. strange eh?

 

[guanophore]

My Adventist friends do not share your faith in the ECFs though so to them I don’t believe it is heresy.

Heresy is not determined by any one person, or even any group of person’s opinions. Heresy is that which contradicts what God has revealed through His Holy Son, Jesus.

Jesus taught that whosoever should believe in Him will never die.

 

[guanophore]

Perhaps if they indeed understood or didn’t get something penned wrong.

What you are saying is that God is too weak or disinterested to preserve His Word where He placed it in the Church, and promised to keep it until the end of the age.

You are saying that the HS fell down on the job in the very first generation after the Apostles.

 

[CMatt25]

Jesus taught that whosoever should believe in Him will never die.

Guan, there may be differences in the details of what folks believe those words to mean. But on these words alone, we have agreement! I praise God for the unity in belief Christians share in Him. God bless all who believe as well as others born of Whom we believe is our Creator. Peace. :grouphug:

 

[pablope]

Wrong. The bible never said when neither of them died except Jesus which is why His legs were not broken. If the bible never said when or what day they died, you can’t assume when they died. That brings me to my next point. Let’s say Jesus did go to heaven that day. Since you don’t know what day the thief died, you have to assume that Jesus left without him. Which means, if it was another day, that makes Jesus a liar. We know that Jesus isn’t a liar which leaves only one solution. If you don’t believe the comma theory here is an example of where one should have been place.

.

I would suggest that you not be true sure yourself. Historians, scholars, will disagree with you 100%, and 99.99 % of Christianity will also. You should take into account historical research and data when you read into scenarios like this in the Bible.

Palestine was a troublesome province for Rome, hence the Romans wanted to maintain peace and were tolerant of local customs. Leaving bodies crucified in the Sabbath would have caused a lot of complaints from the jews and their High Priest, and Rome would not tolerate something like this from the provincial procurator. So those crucified, if still alive, had their legs broken to hasten death before sundown day before the Sabbath. That is why Jesus was taken down from the cross and immediately placed in the tomb without the proper Jewish custom of burial preparation. That is why, in the accounts on Resurrection day, the women were bringing spices to prepare the body for proper preparation according to jewish custom.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The proof is in Jesus words; “today” reveals when the good theif would be in paradise. Because scripture did not say exactly when the good theif died. This does not conflict with the fact that Jesus promised the good thief eternal life today, while both knowing each will die, Jesus gives the time frame of the good theif’s death “today”.

Luke 23:42
Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”
43
He replied to him, “Amen, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

Commas? Luke was an educated Dr. when he wrote his gospel, although he translates from the synoptics a Koine Greek style at times, but this reveals how Luke would remain true to the Jewish culture and custom speaking. The commas, paragraphing, chapters and verses were placed later for our better understanding. Without these, the letters would be all meshed together without any breaks or commas.

These gospels are memoirs from the apostles recorded under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. I don’t follow how a comma can dictate or change what is already believed and practiced long before it gets written down?

Jesus told the good thief "today, **You Will Be With ME **in Paradise", when do you believe the good theif will be in paradise without a living soul?

Peace be with you

LiftHimUp;7578492]Wrong. The bible never said when neither of them died except Jesus which is why His legs were not broken. If the bible never said when or what day they died, you can’t assume when they died. That brings me to my next point. Let’s say Jesus did go to heaven that day. Since you don’t know what day the thief died, you have to assume that Jesus left without him. Which means, if it was another day, that makes Jesus a liar. We know that Jesus isn’t a liar which leaves only one solution. If you don’t believe the comma theory here is an example of where one should have been place.