the doctrine of soul sleep

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Wrong.
  1. without the comma
    Acts 19:12** So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or apron**s, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
  2. With the comma
    Acts 19:12 So that from his body were brought unto the sick, handkerchiefs or aprons, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.
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What version of Bible are you citing? and what year was it published?

Acts 19:12 (New King James Version)

12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them.
So that from his body were brought unto the sick handkerchiefs or apron
s, and the diseases departed from them, and the evil spirits went out of them.

Actually, reading this, an objective reader, would pause between “sick” and “handkerchief” to correctly understand this when reading, and correctly conclude what it is stating correctly.
 
What you are saying is that God is too weak or disinterested to preserve His Word where He placed it in the Church, and promised to keep it until the end of the age.

You are saying that the HS fell down on the job in the very first generation after the Apostles.
No Guan that is not at all what I am saying. What I am saying is no human being can possibly comprehend with their finite minds all things of God. That is what makes Him God and the rest of us human. Man and woman including men in the Church perhaps do their best to preserve and interpret and understand. But human all except God. So we walk by faith. Not by sight.
 
No Guan that is not at all what I am saying. What I am saying is no human being can possibly comprehend with their finite minds all things of God. That is what makes Him God and the rest of us human. Man and woman including men in the Church perhaps do their best to preserve and interpret and understand. But human all except God. So we walk by faith. Not by sight.
Matt, you are on the right path my friend. God is beyond human limits of physical comprehension. “For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts”. (Isaiah 55:9) And as the Jewish rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto stated:
“God’s existence is absolutely simple, without combinations or additions of any kind. All perfections are found in Him in a perfectly simple manner. However, God does not entail separate domains — even though in truth there exist in God qualities which, within us, are separate… Indeed the true nature of His essence is that it is a single attribute, (yet) one that intrinsically encompasses everything that could be considered perfection. All perfection therefore exists in God, not as something added on to His existence, but as an integral part of His intrinsic identity… This is a concept that is very far from our ability to grasp and imagine…”
 
What version of Bible are you citing? and what year was it published?

Acts 19:12 (New King James Version)

12 so that even handkerchiefs or aprons were brought from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out of them.

Actually, reading this, an objective reader, would pause between “sick” and “handkerchief” to correctly understand this when reading, and correctly conclude what it is stating correctly.
possibly the CLEAR bible? Which is a product of the Adventist for Adventist. I dont know. I will look this passage up from there later. I am sure I can google it…Peace 🙂
 
The following is a literal word for word interpretation of the original Greek. Remembering that Koine Greek did not separate words and had no punctuation, using punctuation as a definitive doctrinal argument strikes me as disingenuos at best.

Acts 19:12 As-besides and on the ones-being-un-firm to-be-being-on-carried from the integument of-him handkerchiefs or half-girds and to-be-from-changing from them the ddiseases the besides spirits the wicked to-be-out-coming from them
 
I can see a counter argument that either a) Paradise wasn’t Heaven and/or b) God made an exception. That is from thinking
JL: The answer would be a) Paradise wasn’t heaven. It was Abraham’s Bosom a chamber of Hell, Hades, Sheol, till Christ ascended. Remember the creed He (Christ) descended into Hell? [Eph4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that HE also DESCENDED first INTO THE LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)] A dead body doesn’t DESCEND into a grave, it is placed there by others. It is the immortal soul that descends.

Whether Lazarus and the rich man is literal or a parable, makes no difference. It still teaches the soul lives after the body dies. Just as our Lord tells us in [Mt10:28 Do not be afraid of those WHO KILL THE BODY **but CANNOT KILL THE SOUL. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy BOTH soul AND body in hell.] If the body IS A SOUL then man is able to kill the soul and Christ wouldn’t have said BOTH soul AND body. That would be contrary to what Christ tells us in scripture.]

No one went to Heaven before Christ ascended. Christ, along with the thief, whom Christ promised would be with him THAT DAY in paradise, descended into Abraham’s Bosom, the paradise chamber of Hell, where Lazarus was comforted, [Lk16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now HE IS COMFORTED, and THOU ART TORMENTED.] The rich man descended into the torment chamber of Hell. Can a dead body or non-conscience or non-existent, entity be COMFORTED or TORMENTED? No, but the immortal soul can, Christ tells us in Mt10:28 the soul does not die when the body is killed.

When Christ died his soul descended into Hell=English, Hades=Greek, Sheol=Hebrew, the world of the spirits of the dead. There Christ preached to the spirits [1Pt3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being PUT TO DEATH IN THE FLESH, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also HE WENT AND PREACHED UNTO THE SPIRITS IN PRISON; 1Pt4:6 For for this cause was the GOSPEL PREACHED ALSO TO THEM THAT ARE DEAD, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.]

BOTH BODIES Christ’s and the thief were placed in a tomb=sepulchre=GRAVE=English, mnemeion=Greek or qeber=Hebrew. [mnemeion, qeber from Strongs Exhaustive Condcordance of the Bible]

[Acts 2:31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that **HIS SOUL WAS NOT LEFT IN HADES, NOR did HIS FLESH SEE CORRUPTION **. 32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.]

If the soul is the body=flesh and Hades the grave, there would be no need to distinguish between either, but the scripture does distinguish saying his soul NOR his flesh, it could have easily said, “his soul was not left in Hades nor saw corruption, that would clearly show they are one and the same. Instead the scriptures show two components, soul and flesh. We also see, only flesh decays not the soul. Acts 2:31-32 reminds me of Mt10:28, BOTH soul AND body, Acts 2:31 says, his soul NOR his flesh, BOTH components forming one nature of a living HUMAN BEING=man. Christ’s soul was not left in Hades, where he preached to the spirits of the bodily dead, Pt3:19 & 1Pt4:6, and took them to heaven when he ascended, Eph4:8. NOR did his flesh=body see corruption in the tomb=grave=mnemeion=qeber. If Sheol=Hades=Hell are only a GRAVE, where a dead body is placed, was Christ buried in a grave so deep as to be in the lower part of the earth? [Eph 4:9 In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that HE had ALSO DESCENDED INTO THE LOWER PART OF THE EARTH?]

Could a dead body=corps descend to the lower part of the earth? A dead body=corps could not descend, but could only be lowered into a grave, especially a grave so deep as the lower part of the earth. It was the soul that descended, to the lower part of the earth. I know no one, who has buried a body in a grave, to the lower part of the earth, do you? We know Christ’s body was placed in a tomb, above ground, his body did not descend into that tomb, it was placed there.

If a body is removed from a grave (geber=Hebrew) or tomb, and abandoned on the ground, is it then removed from Sheol=Hades=Hell? NO. If I remove a body from a grave or tomb (geber=Hebrew), and abandon that body on the ground, then the body is no longer in the grave or tomb, is it? A body can be removed from the grave, by any MAN. No MAN can remove a soul from Hell, Hades, Sheol.

The souls of the just were taken into heaven when Christ ascended. [Eph4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that HE also DESCENDED first INTO THE LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)]
 
To summarize Hb 11:13-15, OT saints all died in faith, not receiving that promised, thereby they acknowledged they were strangers and exiles on the earth, seeking a homeland. Had they wanted they had opportunity to return to the land from which they came, but they desired a better country, that is a heavenly one. Hb11:16 …God: for he hath prepared for them a city. Hb 12 tells us, in summary, we have come to Mount Zion the heavenly Jerusalem, to angels, to a judge who is God of all, TO SPIRITS OF JUST MEN made perfect, to Jesus the mediator. Those OT saints and those who died before the resurrection, such as the theif on the cross, were those which our Lord, when he died bodily, descended in spirit into Hell where he preached to the spirit of those saints and when he ascended he took those spirits into the heavenly Jerusalem the city of the living God, [Eph 4:8…When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,… . Acts 1:9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight. Hb12:1 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.

panner;7576947 said:
I jus emailed Amazing Facts and ask them about Luke 23:43 and soul sleep.

JL: You do know, Amazing Facts teaches soul sleep, I don’t know if they are or are not affiliated with SDA…
 
Myself i am not sure of the Catholic teaching regarding the souls of those that died before Christ opening the gates of Heaven on His death.
JL: Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him. CCC 633

scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a5p1.htm#631 CCC 631-637

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm Search the CCC on line
 
Matt, you are on the right path my friend. God is beyond human limits of physical comprehension. “For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts”. (Isaiah 55:9) And as the Jewish rabbi Moshe Chaim Luzzatto stated:
“God’s existence is absolutely simple, without combinations or additions of any kind. All perfections are found in Him in a perfectly simple manner. However, God does not entail separate domains — even though in truth there exist in God qualities which, within us, are separate… Indeed the true nature of His essence is that it is a single attribute, (yet) one that intrinsically encompasses everything that could be considered perfection. All perfection therefore exists in God, not as something added on to His existence, but as an integral part of His intrinsic identity… This is a concept that is very far from our ability to grasp and imagine…”
Campeador, thank you. It may be a lifelong walk for me I can only hope and pray. God bless us all on the path we walk. And where differences may exist in human minds on some points among Christians, I pray they in the end converge around the unity and shared belief in Him. Peace.
 
JL: Scripture calls the abode of the dead, to which the dead Christ went down, “hell” - Sheol in Hebrew or Hades in Greek - because those who are there are deprived of the vision of God. Such is the case for all the dead, whether evil or righteous, while they await the Redeemer: which does not mean that their lot is identical, as Jesus shows through the parable of the poor man Lazarus who was received into “Abraham’s bosom”: “It is precisely these holy souls, who awaited their Savior in Abraham’s bosom, whom Christ the Lord delivered when he descended into hell.” Jesus did not descend into hell to deliver the damned, nor to destroy the hell of damnation, but to free the just who had gone before him. CCC 633

scborromeo.org/ccc/p122a5p1.htm#631 CCC 631-637

scborromeo.org/ccc.htm Search the CCC on line
Thanks for that.JL. Used to have a CCC but had to give it back to the rightful owner.
 
JL: You do know, Amazing Facts teaches soul sleep, I don’t know if they are or are not affiliated with SDA…
Yes I do and they are SDA. 🙂 At one time I studied there a lot, they have a booklet about death that I am thinking they will refer me to.
 
Campeador, thank you. It may be a lifelong walk for me I can only hope and pray. God bless us all on the path we walk. And where differences may exist in human minds on some points among Christians, I pray they in the end converge around the unity and shared belief in Him. Peace.
Peace to you also on your journey. May the Holy Spirit guide you to the truth. 🙂
 
Just to throw a few scriptures in. I don’t know if these were posted. If they were please forgive me. Psalms 89:48 What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah. ;
JL: Only God can deliver a Man’s soul from sheol=Hebrew, hades=Greek, hell=English, the abode of the souls of the dead before Christ. Sheol can also be translated as grave, but Sheol is not the GRAVE for the body. BODIES were placed in a tomb=sepulchre=grave=English, mnemeion=Greek or qeber=Hebrew. [mnemeion, qeber from Strongs Exhaustive Condcordance of the Bible] Any MAN can remove a body from the grave, tomb, sepulcher, qeber in Hebrew, but no MAN can remove a soul from Sheol, Hades, Hell.

When God says we die in Mt10:28 & Lk16:19-31, he reveals to us the soul lives after bodily death, the body is DEAD, NO LIFE, and knows nothing. Yes the HUMAN BEING, is dead, his corps, body, goes back to dust and his living immortal spirit=soul goes back, for judgement to God who gave it, Eccl12:7. At the resurrection when BOTH body AND soul are reunited we will HAVE LIFE once again, as a HUMAN BEING. God is the only one who can resurrect us back to HUMAN LIFE, by bringing the soul and body back together. To be a human being requires BOTH body and soul. The body without the soul is a corps and the soul is a disembodied spirit, it takes BOTH body and soul, to make us a human being. As our Lord reveals in [Mt 10:28 And FEAR NOT THEM which KILL THE BODY, but are NOT ABLE TO KILL THE SOUL: but rather FEAR HIM which is ABLE TO DESTROY BOTH SOUL and BODY in hell.]

Also when God says we die it doesn’t mean NO LIFE. Death can not only refer to the death of the body when the living soul departs and man is CUT OFF or separated from earthly life, see Lk16:19-31 Lazarus and the rich man. Death also refers to the death of the soul when the soul is cut off or separated from God, [Ezk18:4…the soul that sins will die, Eph2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, Col2:13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,]. Paul is speaking to former carnal living persons, the flesh ruled, over a dead soul cut off or separated from God. Now Christian, the soul is alive no longer separated or cut off from God, the soul now has the power to rule over the flesh. The human being now has eternal life by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

The death of only the soul can leave the body alive, just as the death of the body can leave the soul alive. [1Tim 5:6 But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives. [1Jn3:14 We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who DOES NOT LOVE REMAINS IN DEATH. 15 Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that NO MURDERED HAS ETERNAL LIFE IN HIM. Gn2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in THE DAY that THOU EATEST thereof THOU SHALT surely DIE.] Adam and Eve both died that day, to eternal life, yet lived bodily many more years, they were CUT OFF and separated from the LIFE of God, dwelling within, the instant they sinned their soul died and the carnal body ruled. [Mt8:22 But Jesus told him, “Follow me, and LET THE DEAD BURY THEIR OWN DEAD.”] So when God says we die…we are DEAD, bodily or spiritually or BOTH, but it does not mean NO LIFE, as we see in many scriptures, especially Mt10:28 and Lk16:19-31.
 
Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. ;
JL: Yes David’s SEPULCHRE is still with us today and his body was corrupted and returned to dust. When David died his soul went to sheol. No one went to heaven before Christ ascended. If Sheol=Hades=Hell are only a GRAVE, where a dead body is placed, was Christ buried in a grave so deep as to be in the lower part of the earth? [Eph 4:9 In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that HE had ALSO DESCENDED INTO THE LOWER PART OF THE EARTH?]

Could a dead body=corps descend to the lower part of the earth? A dead body=corps could not descend, but could only be lowered into a grave, especially a grave so deep as the lower part of the earth. It was the soul that descended, to the lower part of the earth. I know no one, who has buried a body in a grave, to the lower part of the earth, do you? We know Christ’s body was placed in a tomb, above ground, his body did not descend into that tomb, it was placed there.

If a body is removed from a grave (geber=Hebrew) or tomb, and abandoned on the ground, is it then removed from Sheol=Hades=Hell? NO. If I remove a body from a grave or tomb (geber=Hebrew), and abandon that body on the ground, then the body is no longer in the grave or tomb, is it? A body can be removed from the grave, by any MAN. No MAN can remove a soul from Hell, Hades, Sheol.

The souls of the just were taken into heaven when Christ ascended. [Eph4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that HE also DESCENDED first INTO THE LOWER PARTS OF THE EARTH? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)]
 
Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, ;
JL: Of course David did not ASCEND into heaven only Christ has ASCENDED into heaven. No one went to heaven before Christ. Mankind could only be taken into heaven by the power of God, after Christ’s ascension. Before that man’s soul went to Sheol. Man cannot ASCEND into heaven. If David’s soul is now in heaven, I believe he is, he would have been taken, in soul, along with the OT great crowed of witnesses when Christ ascended, Hb11.

David’s body or dust will still be in the sepulcher on earth till the resurrection of the body at the END when Christ returns. Now after Christ the just souls are in the Heavenly Jerusalem [Hb12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM, and to an innumerable company of angels, 23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to THE **SPIRITS OF JUST MEN MADE PERFECT, 24 AND to JESUS THE MEDIATOR of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.] Notice scripture says the SPIRITS OF JUST MEN, we know BODIES are raised at the last day. Yet the SPIRITS OF JUST MEN are NOW in, the Heavenly Jerusalem, the same place Jesus is present.

Many human beings even now have eternal life, they posses the very life of God, which absolutely must begin here on earth, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, in fact eternal life is, ONLY, given and received in this life, not after death. Eternal life and immortality are not quite the same. Good angels have both immortality and eternal life as they posses God. Satan and fallen angels have immortality, they do not die, yet they do not posses eternal life. They are separated, CUT OFF, from the life of God and heirs to eternal punishment, immortal existence and all the chaos and mayhem being CUT OFF from God entails. Their existence is called the second death, it is not a real death nor a real life, but existence. Their life is destroyed, just as substance abuse can literally destroy man’s body and life, to the point he is only existing, yet not bodily dead.

The body will put on IMMORTALITY at the resurrection, as the flesh or body is not yet immortal, yet the soul is. The resurrected bodies, of the just and unjust, will have immortality, but only the just have eternal life along with a glorified body, because the Holy Spirit indwells the just soul. [Jn5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves [not Hades but mnemeion=Greek] shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. Dan12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.] The unjust’s body will be the same body but changed to reflect the shame and contempt of their particular sins. The God created spirit=soul is IMMORTAL by its very created nature. Just as angles, good or fallen, by their very created nature, are immortal, even though some, the fallen angels and men without the indwelling Holy Spirit, do not have eternal life, they are eternally CUT OFF.

In Gn37:12-36 when Jacob was told his youngest son Joseph was killed by a wild animal, [Gn37:35 And all his sons and all his daughters rose up to comfort him; but he refused to be comforted; and he said, For **I will go down into the grave [Hades] unto my son mourning. Thus his father wept for him.] Jacob thought Joseph’s body was devoured by an animal (Gn37:33) not buried. Therefore, Jacob could not have thought Joseph’s body was in a grave, or Hades=Sheol=Hell as you say, where a dead body is placed.

If Jacob thought Sheol was only a grave, where a body is placed, how could Jacob say he will go down to Sheol to his son, knowing his son was not buried in a grave, thinking his son was in the belly of animal? Only in soul=spirit could he go down to his son in Sheol. Where all souls went after death, before the ascension, as our Lord reveals in Lk16:19-31 Lazarus and the rich man. All that Joseph’s brothers brought back was Joseph’s coat, soaked in blood, Jacob didn’t say take me to the place you buried his remains, or go look for his remains, that we may bury them. Jacob nor anyone mentioned bodily burial, even as an option, yet Jacob said he would go down to Sheol to his son, obviously he did not mean a GRAVE for a body, because his son was not buried.

[Gn 49:33 And when Jacob had made an end of commanding his sons, he gathered up his feet into the bed, and YIELDED UP THE GHOST, AND WAS GATHERED UNTO HIS PEOPLE.]

Joseph, Jacob’s son, had Jacob’s body embalmed, before leaving Egypt, Gn50:2-3, that took forty days, then the body was taken from Egypt to Canaan for burial in a cave where Abraham had been buried, but Jacob was gathered to his people when he died. Yet he was only finally, bodily, buried in a grave, cave, at lest two months later. Joseph said in Gn50:5 My father made me swear, saying, Lo, I die: in my GRAVE (QEBER 6913 Hebrew, burying place, grave, sepulchre) which I HAVE DIGGED for me in the land of Canaan, there shalt thou BURY (QABAR=Hebrew, bury, 6912) me. Now therefore let me go up, I pray thee, and BURY (QABAR=bury, 6912) my father, and I will come again. 6913/6012 Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, also Death and the Afterlife, by Dr. Robert A. Morey, Bethany House Publishers.
 
Acts 13:6 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption: ;
JL: No argument, no doubt about it, David’s body saw corruption in the sepulcher were his body was laid. His immortal soul didn’t die when his body died. Christ tells us in Mt10:28 [Mt10:28 Do not be afraid of those WHO KILL THE BODY **but CANNOT KILL THE SOUL.
Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy BOTH soul AND body in hell.]

[Acts2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: 26 Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also MY FLESH SHALL REST IN HOPE: 27 BECAUSE thou wilt not leave MY SOUL [psuche=Greek] IN HELL [Hades], neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption. 28 Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.]

2Sam 3:32 And they BURIED (QABAR=bury, 6912 Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance) Abner in Hebron: and the king lifted up his voice, and wept at the GRAVE (QEBER=burying place, grave, sepulchre, 6913 Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance), of Abner; and all the people wept. [Sheol can be translated GRAVE, but it is in reference to the spiritual world of the dead, while qeber=grave, tomb, sepulchre is in reference to the body, the earthly grave. I can visit an earthly grave, I cannot visit Sheol. I can bury anyone in an earthly grave, I cannot bury anyone in Sheol=Hades=Hell. I can remove anyone from an earthly grave, I cannot remove anyone from Sheol=Hades=Hell.] Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance #7585 HELL=SHEOL; from 7592: hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), incl. Its accessories and inmates:–grave, hell, pit.]
2 Peter 3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. ;
JL: 2Pt3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days SCOFFERS, walking after their own lusts, 4 And SAYING, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. 5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:]

Well those who were complaining in 2Pt3:4 are scoffers and forget or are ingnorant of the fact that after CREATION the world was destroyed by water. For a more clear reading see biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Peter%203:1-9&version=AMP Yes men still die, fell asleep, if you like and their bodies are still buried in a grave (GERBER Hebrew) and before Christ their immortal souls went to one of the chambers of Sheol. I really don’t see your point.
Psalms 13:3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;
JL: And your point here would be, what?

The man in Ps13 is in trouble and if God doesn’t help him, with his grace, he will be killed by his ememy and sleep the sleep of DEATH. That means his soul=spirit will separate from his body. In which case his body would be buried, and see corruption in the grave, geber=Hebrew, and his living soul would go to one of the chambers of Sheol=Hebrew.
Ps13:1** How long wilt thou forget me, O LORD? for ever?** how long wilt thou hide thy face from me? 2 How long shall I take counsel in my soul, having sorrow in my heart daily? how long shall mine enemy be exalted over me? 3 Consider and hear me, O LORD my God: LIGHTEN MINE EYES, lest I sleep the sleep of death; 4 Lest mine enemy say, I have prevailed against him; and those that trouble me rejoice when I am moved. 5 But I have trusted in thy mercy; my heart shall rejoice in thy salvation. 6 I will sing unto the LORD, because he hath dealt bountifully with me.

1Sam14:29 29Then said Jonathan, My father hath troubled the land: see, I pray you, how MINE EYES HAVE BEEN ENLIGHENED, BECAUSE I tasted a little of this honey.
[Ezra9:8 And now for a little space **GRACE hath been shewed from the LORD our God, to leave us a remnant to escape, and to give us a nail in his holy place, that our God may LIGHTEN OUR EYES, and give us a little reviving in our bondage.] Lighten our eyes sounds like an idiomatic Jewish expression for God grace to help.
 
No Guan that is not at all what I am saying. What I am saying is no human being can possibly comprehend with their finite minds all things of God. That is what makes Him God and the rest of us human. Man and woman including men in the Church perhaps do their best to preserve and interpret and understand. But human all except God. So we walk by faith. Not by sight.
There is something in between, here CMatt. No, a human being cannot fathom “all things of God”. However, we do not need to do so in order to walk according to His revelation to us.

The Church was not abandoned by God,as you infer, when you say “men…do their best”. The Church is not just “men doing their best”, but a sacred deposit of the revelation of God preserved infallibly by the HS. It is not up to fallible men to “interpret and understand”, but the HS to reveal the Truth. In your statement you deny that the HS is guiding the Church. You assert that the Church is not, in fact, ensouled and preserved by the HS, but that it is only a bunch of fallible men “doing their best”. This is a deficient notion of the Church, and not consistent with what the Apsotles beleived and taught about what the Church is, and how it functions.
 
Campeador, thank you. It may be a lifelong walk for me I can only hope and pray. God bless us all on the path we walk. And where differences may exist in human minds on some points among Christians, I pray they in the end converge around the unity and shared belief in Him. Peace.
Unity exists when we embrace the Truth. Jesus’ revealed all that the Father wants us to know in this life. To the degree that any of us reject His revelation, we cause disunity.
 
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