The Dormition of the Virgin

[Simca]

I was recently so blessed to be able to go to the Byzantine and Christian Museum in Athens, Greece.

I have always been in love with Icons and have some in my home. In the museum was one IKON called ‘The Dormition of the Virgin’ from the early 14th century. It was painted by Constantine Manasses and depicts Mary at her death, being laid out, and surrounded by numerous other saints.

I’m fairly new to Catholicism and don’t know too much about Eastern or Western beliefs concerning the bodily assumption of Mary, or of her physical death, which is, I guess, what the Eastern Rite believes in…? Are there histories, traditions or earlier art concerning her death?

Could somebody shed some light on this for me?

Greatly appreciated.

Simca

 

[Robyn_p]

I’m not an Eastern rite Catholic, but I remember being told a story about the Dormition as a child.

If I remember right, the story went that after Mary died, all the apostles came to Ephesus (which is where she lived with St. John.) and buried her. But St. Thomas was late and wasn’t there for the service. (Typical Thomas ) When he finally arrived to pay his respects, her grave was empty and filled with flowers where her body was. Angels planted the flowers. (According to this story.)

Now I don’t know where or when this story originated, or if I even told it right. (My parents told me it when I was a kid, so I could be mixing up some details.) But this is just what I’ve always been taught about the Assumption, that Mary died and then was resurrected and assumed into heaven. I didn’t realize this was an Eastern belief until just recently.

Don’t know if that was helpful to you but I’ve just always liked this story.

 

[JamesTheJust]

I was recently so blessed to be able to go to the Byzantine and Christian Museum in Athens, Greece.

I have always been in love with Icons and have some in my home. In the museum was one IKON called ‘The Dormition of the Virgin’ from the early 14th century. It was painted by Constantine Manasses and depicts Mary at her death, being laid out, and surrounded by numerous other saints.

I’m fairly new to Catholicism and don’t know too much about Eastern or Western beliefs concerning the bodily assumption of Mary, or of her physical death, which is, I guess, what the Eastern Rite believes in…? Are there histories, traditions or earlier art concerning her death?

Could somebody shed some light on this for me?

Greatly appreciated.

Simca

I do agree! Eastern Catholic and Orthodox icons and art can be incredibly beautiful.

As for the doctrine of the Assumption, Catholic dogma says that Mary, near the time of her death (it is left up to each believer to decide whether it was before or after her death), was taken into Heaven, both body and soul, in the manner of Enoch and Elijah. The proclamation of this doctrine in 1950 was the second time a Pope issued an infallible, binding, ex cathedra statement. Here is the actual text:
vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html

Now, it is my understanding that our Orthodox brethren have a slightly different doctrine, called the Dormition, which is similar to the Assumption, but states that Mary was in a sleep-like state before being taken up into Heaven. Now, I could be completely wrong about this, so please correct me if I am.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Just to clarify one point, while Pius may not have dogmatically define that she died, he certainly taught it in the same document, and the denial of the fact that she died is foreign to the Tradition of the Church and Scripture. St. Paul writes,

And may be found in him not having my justice, which is of the law, but that which is of the faith of Christ Jesus: the justice which is of God in faith, That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable to his death: If by any means I may attain to the resurrection, which is from the dead. (Philippians 3:9-11)

Would it be fitting at all for St. Mary not be conformed to the death of her son? I don’t think it is responsible to propose that she never died as a permissable opinion to teach publicly, as if we are waiting for further instruction on the matter to be beamed down from thr mothership.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Church of the Dormition

seetheholyland.net/church-of-the-dormition/

And the repetitive historic reality…

"Then the Lord held forth His right hand, Blessed His Mother and said to Her; “Let your heart rejoice and be glad, O Mary Blessed among women, for every Grace and Gift has been given to you by my heavenly Father, and every soul that calls on your name with holiness, will not be put to shame, but will find mercy and comfort both in this life and the age to come” "

St Maximus the Confessor; Life of the Virgin, pg136 chp 110. His Life of the Virgin is thought to be the earliest complete biography of Mary, the mother of Jesus.

“As She escaped the pains of childbirth in the ineffable nativity, so the pains of death did not come upon Her at the time of Her Dormition, for both then and now the Lord of natures altered nature.”

Much discussed here also below- “Re: Orthodox Churches, and Eastern Rite”

Death extends into metaphysics, and appears to be a supernatural metamorphosis indicated by a change in Her appearance, condition, and function.

To simply put it, physical death is universal, what is not universal is how we comprehend it.

I stopped at electrical engineering, the math became too time consuming, I’ll let the physics majors explain from here.

 

[prodromos]

Now, it is my understanding that our Orthodox brethren have a slightly different doctrine, called the Dormition, which is similar to the Assumption, but states that Mary was in a sleep-like state before being taken up into Heaven. Now, I could be completely wrong about this, so please correct me if I am.

Consider yourself corrected… Mary died. The expression “fell asleep” in this context means she died. The word cemetary comes from the greek word for “sleep”.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Mary died.

Hi,

Its your burden of proof then. Do you have a documented, accurate historic account and the name of a verified witness, verified to be authentic, the body, a bone. anything?

What is known is the above link to the actual Church, and those earliest existing writings are Apocryphal.

Thanks

 

[prodromos]

Hi,

Its your burden of proof then. Do you have a documented, accurate historic account and the name of a verified witness, verified to be authentic, the body, a bone. anything?

What is known is the above link to the actual Church, and those earliest existing writings are Apocryphal.

Thanks

He stated that he believed the Orthodox doctrine was that Mary entered a sleep like state before being bodily assumed. The Orthodox doctrine is that Mary died and was placed in her tomb before being bodily assumed. My evidence is the feast day and hymns of the Orthodox Church and the innumerable experiences the Orthodox faithfull have had with Panagia over the centuries.

 

[GaryTaylor]

He stated that he believed the Orthodox doctrine was that Mary entered a sleep like state before being bodily assumed. The Orthodox doctrine is that Mary died and was placed in her tomb before being bodily assumed. My evidence is the feast day and hymns of the Orthodox Church and the innumerable experiences the Orthodox faithfull have had with Panagia over the centuries.

I showed you the Tradition its no different is what I’m showing with the Catholic Church above, the Catholic Church promotes exactly what your saying in other words. What the Pope is saying, and badly what I am attempting to say is, Mary was assumed body and soul, he doesn’t speak on the rest for that is Tradition which is based on the evidence explained. hymns are Tradition, I acknowledge this.

 

[JamesTheJust]

Consider yourself corrected… Mary died. The expression “fell asleep” in this context means she died. The word cemetary comes from the greek word for “sleep”.

Ah, ok. Sorry about that. I stand corrected

 

[GaryTaylor]

I would go out on a limb and say that what the Catholic Church didn’t say about the assumption of the body and soul of St Mary, is a mystery left to prayer and the advice of the Saints like St Maximus.

 

[Fone_Bone_2001]

I was recently so blessed to be able to go to the Byzantine and Christian Museum in Athens, Greece.

I have always been in love with Icons and have some in my home. In the museum was one IKON called ‘The Dormition of the Virgin’ from the early 14th century. It was painted by Constantine Manasses and depicts Mary at her death, being laid out, and surrounded by numerous other saints.

I’m fairly new to Catholicism and don’t know too much about Eastern or Western beliefs concerning the bodily assumption of Mary, or of her physical death, which is, I guess, what the Eastern Rite believes in…? Are there histories, traditions or earlier art concerning her death?

Could somebody shed some light on this for me?

Greatly appreciated.

Simca

I forget the sources off the top of my head, but yes, Sacred Tradition - divine revelation held to in both eastern and western forms - attests that our Blessed Mother, the Theotokos, died, was buried, and then was resurrected from the dead and assumed into heaven.

Hi,

Its your burden of proof then. Do you have a documented, accurate historic account and the name of a verified witness, verified to be authentic, the body, a bone. anything?

No, he doesn’t have a body or a bone or know anyone who does, because there aren’t any here on this earth: as prodromos would agree (since he’s Orthodox), the Theotokos was assumed into heaven after her death, body and soul.

Let’s not manufacture disagreement on a matter on which we’re actually united.

The Orthodox Christians too believe that she was assumed into heaven.
And Catholic teaching, as well, attests to the fact that she died before her glorious assumption. Remember what reply #4 above cites - passages from Pope Pius XII himself that refer to her death.

 

[GaryTaylor]

No, he doesn’t have a body or a bone or know anyone who does, because there aren’t any here on this earth: as prodromos would agree (since he’s Orthodox), the Theotokos was assumed into heaven after her death, body and soul…

Amen

Let’s not manufacture disagreement on a matter on which we’re actually united…

But we are all in agreement.

The Orthodox Christians too believe that she was assumed into heaven.
And Catholic teaching, as well, attests to the fact that she died before her glorious assumption. Remember what reply #4 above cites - passages from Pope Pius XII himself that refer to her death.

Amen, see how easy that was? “Pius may not have dogmatically defined that she died, he certainly taught it in the same document,”

and the denial of the fact that she died is foreign to the Tradition of the Church and Scripture."

Tradition is what I was talking about, Scripture would be of issue how? And denial of the fact is actually believed by some, why I do not know, but I vaguely remember the conversation. Surely your not saying one cannot believe She was assumed “alive” in the CC? You agree that this wasn’t dogmatically defined, so we are talking teaching of tradition.

 

[Josephene]

The Dogma of the Assumption of The Virgin too has been possibly declared ,esp. to help those who might have come under powers and hidden pacts , set to deprive all, of what rightfully belongs to the children of God , through faith and all that comes from same !

Thus , we are very blessed that we have a Church that is rightily guided in these matters , that tends and feeds the lambs and the sheep , in timely manner , helping to undo the powers of the serpentine beasts , set on war with The Woman .

usccb.org/bible/revelation/22- Spirit telling John, not to seal up the words of the prophetic book …and the warning for anyone who takes away from the prophetic words - would it not include even those who indirectly undermine the truths in it , in whatever manner !

Thus, the Dogma of Assumption is, to gloriously proclaim the words in Book of Rev. about the Ark of the Covenant, the Woman clothed with the sun, being in heaven , and that truth not to be clouded by focus / emphasis / celebration ! only of her ’ falling asleep ’ - a theme that might have been sneaked in, under mysterious circumstances , by powers with ulterior motives and not with the intent to foster 'right ’ or ‘orthodox’ practices !

Thank God that The Spirit has been listened to faithfully , to undo such designs, by those with loving responsibility , given so by The Lord !

Let us be grateful , to our Mother , who intercedes for all her children , that she drive away from the depth of all our hearts , any grains of prideful disbelief , that keep any of us away from trusting all She and The Bride desires for the children !

P.S - the book of visions of Bl. Emmerich, under the title of ‘Life of Christ’ has beautiful descriptions of all these events , seemingly gives as a gift for our times , by The Lord, to swallow up the torrent by the dragon , set to sweep away The Woman !

Was searching for the answer in The Passion scene in that book, on who it that ran away , leaving the linen cloth - mentioned in Mark’s Gospel ; Bl.Emmerich describes the scene well, how John ran off at first , thus giving credence to the words of how all the Apostles ran off , but came back , letting the soldiers grab off his linen wrapping / scarf around his head , but not the tunic !

Her book also describes the last days of bl.Mother , including the scene of her Assumption after her ’ falling asleep ’ while in Ephesus - latter place discovered , through writings of Bl.Emmerich -

srmarie-lorraine.blogspot.com/2011/09/via-crucis-at-marys-house.html

May her prayers , along with the intercession of our Glorious Lord , help all of our departed too , to be in the glorious company of the faithful !

Come , O Holy Spirit , come,through the powerful intercession of

the Immacuate Heart of Mary, Your well beloved Spouse,

come and fill us and the whole world !

 

[GaryTaylor]

In Pius XII’s dogmatic statement, the phrase “having completed the course of her earthly life,” leaves open the question of whether the Virgin Mary died before her assumption or whether she was assumed before death; both possibilities are allowed. Mary’s assumption is said to have been a divine gift to her as the ‘Mother of God’. Ludwig Ott’s view is that, as Mary completed her life as a shining example to the human race, the perspective of the gift of assumption is offered to the whole human race.[26]

"In Ludwig Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma he states that “the fact of her death is almost generally accepted by the Fathers and Theologians, and is expressly affirmed in the Liturgy of the Church”, to which he adduces a number of helpful citations, and concludes that “for Mary, death, in consequence of her freedom from original sin and from personal sin, was not a consequence of punishment of sin.[27] However, it seems fitting that Mary’s body, which was by nature mortal, should be, in conformity with that of her Divine Son, subject to the general law of death”.[27]

The point of her bodily death has not been infallibly defined, and many believe that she did not die at all, but was assumed directly into Heaven. The dogmatic definition within the Apostolic Constitution Munificentissimus Deus which, according to Roman Catholic dogma, infallibly proclaims the doctrine of the Assumption leaves open the question whether, in connection with her departure, Mary underwent bodily death; that is, it does not dogmatically define the point one way or the other, as shown by the words “having completed the course of her earthly life”.[20]" Wiki Pedia

This is my understanding. As to what I believe, the Tradition. Nevertheless I was not there, as far as I see here on earth, all die. As to what God can do? Anything.

 

[prodromos]

In Pius XII’s dogmatic statement, the phrase “having completed the course of her earthly life,” leaves open the question of whether the Virgin Mary died before her assumption or whether she was assumed before death; both possibilities are allowed. Mary’s assumption is said to have been a divine gift to her as the ‘Mother of God’. Ludwig Ott’s view is that, as Mary completed her life as a shining example to the human race, the perspective of the gift of assumption is offered to the whole human race.[26]

Aren’t theological declaration by the church meant to clarify beliefs, not make them more vague?
Prior to the ‘infallible’ declaration by the Pope, there was no doubt that Mary had died before her bodily assumtion, but afterwards its now an optional beleif?

 

[dvdjs]

Aren’t theological declaration by the church meant to clarify beliefs, not make them more vague?
Prior to the ‘infallible’ declaration by the Pope, there was no doubt that Mary had died before her bodily assumtion, but afterwards its now an optional beleif?

I am not sure that you can prove what was beyond doubt, but the point of the declaration is the assumption into heaven.

Was that doubted? We have Orthodox on this forum who have stated that they considered this truth secondary and not a belief that is required in the EOC.

 

[twf]

Aren’t theological declaration by the chhurch meant to clarify beliefs, not make them more vague?
Prior to the ‘infallible’ declaration by the Pope, there was no doubt that Mary had died before her bodily assumtion, but afterwards its now an optional beleif?

I strongly disagree with many of my fellow Catholics on this matter. While it is true that the DOGMA itself doesn’t specify whether Our Lady died, her death is taught in the very document in which Pope Pius promulgated the dogma! Her death, or rather, Dormition, is the consistent tradition of East and West and has been taught by bishops and popes down through the centuries. Catholics are not bound only by dogmas, but also by the ordinary magisterium - that is, the consistent teaching of the popes and bishops in every time and place. I consider Our Lady’s death part of the ordinary magisterium. Who would dare deprive the mother of God the glory of sharing in the resurrection?

 

[Alfonsus]

Like in the East, the notion that Mary died is more traditional.
We can see it in paintings, carvings, statues, processions, and even dormition play in the Western spirituality that highlight the death of Mary.

When I say dormition play, the most notable is “The Mystery of Elche.”
The play was approved by Pope Urban VIII in 1632.

It is a passio play of the dormition and assumption. It consists of two parts. The first part is played on the eve of Assumption, depicting the Dormition. Angels came and take her soul, in the form of a miniature of the famous Dormition statue (the Virgen Dormida) also venerated in the basilica of Elche.

The next day the second part of the play will be conducted. In the morning, the statue of Virgen Dormida is taken in procession trough the city. In the evening, the story of burial and assumption will be played, where heaven opened and the body is taken to heaven, ended with glorious coronation of Mary.

 

[QNDNNDQDCE]

Aren’t theological declaration by the church meant to clarify beliefs, not make them more vague?
Prior to the ‘infallible’ declaration by the Pope, there was no doubt that Mary had died before her bodily assumtion, but afterwards its now an optional beleif?

LOL. Agreed. I have not studied the history surrounding the document, but my guess is that the ambiguous phrase concerning Blessed Mary’s death is not so much because Pius wanted to teach that it was an open question, but that he only sought to dogmatically define her Assumption.