The Dress Code for the Vatican - Should it be Universal?

[maryjk]

Exactly why there need to be a UNIVERSAL SET OF GUIDELINES…People interpret modesty differently…

So you feel that everyone, in the entire world, should view modesty the same way? Everyone, in the entire world, should dress the same?

And that every Catholic, in the entire world, should take what people can do in the Vatican as what is modest? Please tell me what is there about cells phones that are immodest?

Or could it be that the guidelines for the Vatican are because it is a tourist destination? That hundreds of thousands of people walk through every year? And not because it is a Catholic Church holding Mass?

 

[EasterJoy]

…Don’t make a small issue a big issue. Also don’t ever say you HAVE to do something, rather show the importance of why it is so important to live this way, not to do these things and so on and so forth. I think people may not like you as a pastor when you start to demand things from them…

I think people may not like you as a physician when you start to demand things of them, either, and both physicians and pastors know that. Unfortunately, I know people in medicine who, as recently as 10 years ago, were told by patients with a straight face that no one had ever told them smoking was bad for them. Another told his doctor that he thought drinking a case of beer a day was moderate drinking, because his friends drank two or even three cases a day. Although modesty in dress doesn’t top the list of areas of spiritual ignorance, there are a lot of people in that same boat when it comes to spiritual matters–especially the fellow who thought he was “moderate” because he knew people who were far worse. Someone was too afraid of offending them to tell them the truth about how they needed to live, and it was to their detriment.

But yes, this kind of education is best done very much like a physician has to do it, which is to say as an guide, not as a drill sargeant. Souls cannot be literally driven into eternal life, any more than patients can be forced into healthy habits. They have to be lead, convinced come of their own accord, and that requires a hand that is both firm and kind at the same time.

 

[Joe_5859]

"our parishes are different than the vatican, not in the way you mention but the people who go to those parishes. That is why you can’t have the same rules the vatican have and expect the same reaction. In a small country parish, especially where I live if you do something they dislike they will just go to the church 10 minuets down the road where that priest didn’t do that thing. "

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the Vatican the head of our Church??? Doesn’t it set the example that ALL Catholics should be following? Isn’t the Mass said at the Vatican the same Mass said around the world??? The Mass said in Kalamazoo is still the Mass. It deserves the same amount of respect as any Vatican Mass would receive. You are IN THE PRESENCE OF CHRIST, put on some darn clothes!

Pope Benedict also distributes Communion only on the tongue to people who are kneeling. If you read the interview with him in “Light of the World,” he explains why. At the Vatican, there are lots of tourists who come through and think of the Eucharist as a “souvenir.” Distributing on the tongue helps avoid this issue. Further, distributing in this way highlights the sacredness of the Eucharist and what we believe about the Real Presence.

But he has not made this a universal law which all must follow. And he did not intend to.

I think the dress code is a similar (and more mundane) scenario. If the Pope wanted it to be applied universally, he would have applied it universally. This is not to say that it has nothing to teach us. But giving usa model and mandating something across the globe are two completely different things.

If a person wants to implement a dress code, I would encourage them to start in their parish. Bring the idea to the pastor. Get him on board. Take it to the parish council. Get them on board. Bring it to the parishioners. Get them on board. It does no good to simply wish things were different. If we want things to change, then we have to do something about it.

 

[catholictiger]

"our parishes are different than the vatican, not in the way you mention but the people who go to those parishes. That is why you can’t have the same rules the vatican have and expect the same reaction. In a small country parish, especially where I live if you do something they dislike they will just go to the church 10 minuets down the road where that priest didn’t do that thing. "

Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t the Vatican the head of our Church??? Doesn’t it set the example that ALL Catholics should be following? Isn’t the Mass said at the Vatican the same Mass said around the world??? The Mass said in Kalamazoo is still the Mass. It deserves the same amount of respect as any Vatican Mass would receive. You are IN THE PRESENCE OF CHRIST, put on some darn clothes!

I don’t disagree but forcing people to do something in a parish setting is never good, give them guidelines to live by and let them make the choice to more closely follow christ not you forcing them to more closely follow christ.

 

[catholictiger]

Pope Benedict also distributes Communion only on the tongue to people who are kneeling. If you read the interview with him in “Light of the World,” he explains why. At the Vatican, there are lots of tourists who come through and think of the Eucharist as a “souvenir.” Distributing on the tongue helps avoid this issue. Further, distributing in this way highlights the sacredness of the Eucharist and what we believe about the Real Presence.

But he has not made this a universal law which all must follow. And he did not intend to.

I think the dress code is a similar (and more mundane) scenario. If the Pope wanted it to be applied universally, he would have applied it universally. This is not to say that it has nothing to teach us. But giving usa model and mandating something across the globe are two completely different things.

If a person wants to implement a dress code, I would encourage them to start in their parish. Bring the idea to the pastor. Get him on board. Take it to the parish council. Get them on board. Bring it to the parishioners. Get them on board. It does no good to simply wish things were different. If we want things to change, then we have to do something about it.

amen to this, and as I have said in order to change things in a place the people must be the ones to change not the priest forcing it on the people, they will leave if you do this. BTW I’m sure the pastor would love to listen if you gave him an idea like this. He may or may not agree depending on the situation but he would love to have your (name removed by moderator)ut. To many people are scared to give advice to the priest but they want it a lot.

 

[severus68]

Since when is a bare arm immodest/shoulder immodest? I suppose if you were muslim.

If someone was lusting after my arm I think I would laugh at them and think “poor guy, he’s really got problems.”

I think the real problem is not with what we wear but how we look at the body! What if a woman has to feed her baby with her boob? Would that be considered immodest? The baby has to eat!

Absolutely! Too much thinking about and obsession with a woman’s body by some I would think. They should concentrate on the Mass, Christ and their own spirituality.

BTW not all Muslims have issues about bare arms. In Indonesia and Malaysia, it is common to see Muslim women with sleeveless tops.

 

[severus68]

Agreed.

Ditto.

 

[Portrait]

my only issue about enforcing a dress code at a parish, that has an issue with immodest dress, is your going to loose parishioners and you may even loose faithful Catholics, over a small issue like dress. I don’t think the issue should be ignored no. But enforcing a dress code goes a little to far in a parish church

I don’t disagree either but the issue at stake for me is my flock that I have been put in charge (well will be put in charge) I want to build a good relationship with my flock, and I want to avoid things that will hurt my relationship. enforcing a dress code will hurt my relationship. Bringing it up in a homily and dealing with people one on one won’t hurt it as much maybe even help it. What is the point of a dress code if it sends a large portion of your flock away and your pews are more empty, but those people are dressed as they should.

our parishes are different than the vatican, not in the way you mention but the people who go to those parishes. That is why you can’t have the same rules the vatican have and expect the same reaction. In a small country parish, especially where I live if you do something they dislike they will just go to the church 10 minuets down the road where that priest didn’t do that thing.

yes of course but how you address that is where we disagree.

Dear catholictiger,

Hello again and thankyou for your response.

May I just say at the outset, my dear friend, that I recognise your good intentions for your future flock and appreciate that you have no desire to unnecessarily alienate them. Our lot is cast in very difficult times, as so many rank and file Catholics in the West have adopted a hand in hand with the world type of religion, a sort of ‘Catholicism Lite’, to use George Weigel’s happy turn of phrase. However, the plain truth is that multitudes of modern Catholics, even among the doctrinally orthodox, have become thoroughly inbued with the spirit of the age and as a consequence are making some jolly catastrophic errors of prudential judgment, including their choice of clothing. Moreover, there is sadly this view among some contemporary Catholics that the Church cannot attract and keep souls by being itself, it must adapt to modern ideas and play along with the secular culture and even be a part of it. This is a grave mistake and is undermining our credibility in the eyes of the world, who look to the Church and expect to see men living unworldly lives that are very different from their own. After all, dear friend, we do profess godliness and claim to have our mind fixed upon heavenly things (Col. 3: 2). Thus the worldling, quite rightly, does not expect to see a young professing Catholic female donning provocative style fashions, such as a mini-skirt, and certainly not attending Sunday Mass attired in such seductive vesture.

In the light of this, dear friend, I think it imperative that we present the whole truth to our flock and withhold nothing that is profitable to their advancement in holy living, no matter how hard or unpaletable this may be to some. Modern Catholics must be made aware of the arduous demands of our most holy religion and that they are called to the pursuit of holiness, which involves not being conformed to the world and its vulgar tastes, be it in clothing or anything else. We are all called to sanctity and separation from the godless world, it is not merely for a few thoroughgoing spiritual types. True, dear brother, it is very possible that you will loose some half-hearted worldly parishioners, who do not want anyone telling them what to do, that I will concede. However, an obligation is surely laid upon a priest to afflict the comfortable, as well as comforting the afflicted, even if this does cause a fracture in pastor and people relationships. The alternative is to allow oneself to be ruled by a lily-livered pragmatism which in the end does not win men’s respect and only serves to undermine our Church’s mission to the world. The apostles themselves never shunned speaking unpalatable truths and did not go out of their way to court popularity to avoid giving offence. Indeed, St. Paul said to the Galatians, “Have I then become your enemy by telling you the truth?” (Gal. 4: 16).

Sorry, dear friend, but a morbid fear of offending some unspiritual members of the flock can result in rendering a man ineffective and powerless, especially in his pulpit labours. On the other hand, a faithful and loving pastor who reproves will, at length, be respected and vindicated, perhaps even by those who at first object strongly to his supposedly ‘hardline’ approach. Moreover, his faithful and uncompromising preaching may even result in the worldly having a change of heart, provided that Father is steadfast and does not buckle under pressure.

The local church, dear friend, is only microcosom of the great Vatican church and thus equally requires a dress code in these morally decadent times. Even a gentleman’s club here in the UK has its rules with which the members must abide by. Thus, for example, I could not enter the club unless I was properly attired, which would include wearing a sober tie and at the very least a sports jacket or blazer with flannels. Now if a secular club has rules respecting dress, then why cannot a church also, especially as it is a more sacred place where God is very much present? Those who depart, simply because the priest says or does something that they dislike, are quite frankly behaving in a jolly puerile and un-Catholic manner, if I may say, and need a good dressing down. Rules are rules and must therefore be obeyed, unless they are contrary to the law of God.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

 

[Walking_Home]

Originally Posted by Walking_Home

---

I’d say – there are others-- who need professional therapy. Like the kind – who view women as a collection of body parts. Of course – the dysfunction is covered up under a white wash of “religious piousness” ---- harping on “modesty”.

 

[CesarAugustus]

Dear catholictiger,

Hello again and thankyou for your response.

May I just say at the outset, my dear friend, that I recognise your good intentions for your future flock and appreciate that you have no desire to unnecessarily alienate them. Our lot is cast in very difficult times, as so many rank and file Catholics in the West have adopted a hand in hand with the world type of religion, a sort of ‘Catholicism Lite’, to use George Weigel’s happy turn of phrase. However, the plain truth is that multitudes of modern Catholics, even among the doctrinally orthodox, have become thoroughly inbued with the spirit of the age and as a consequence are making some jolly catastrophic errors of prudential judgment, including their choice of clothing. Moreover, there is sadly this view among some contemporary Catholics that the Church cannot attract and keep souls by being itself, it must adapt to modern ideas and play along with the secular culture and even be a part of it. This is a grave mistake and is undermining our credibility in the eyes of the world, who look to the Church and expect to see men living unworldly lives that are very different from their own. After all, dear friend, we do profess godliness and claim to have our mind fixed upon heavenly things (Col. 3: 2). Thus the worldling, quite rightly, does not expect to see a young professing Catholic female donning provocative style fashions, such as a mini-skirt, and certainly not attending Sunday Mass attired in such seductive vesture.

In the light of this, dear friend, I think it imperative that we present the whole truth to our flock and withhold nothing that is profitable to their advancement in holy living, no matter how hard or unpaletable this may be to some. Modern Catholics must be made aware of the arduous demands of our most holy religion and that they are called to the pursuit of holiness, which involves not being conformed to the world and its vulgar tastes, be it in clothing or anything else. We are all called to sanctity and separation from the godless world, it is not merely for a few thoroughgoing spiritual types. True, dear brother, it is very possible that you will loose some half-hearted worldly parishioners, who do not want anyone telling them what to do, that I will concede. However, an obligation is surely laid upon a priest to afflict the comfortable, as well as comforting the afflicted, even if this does cause a fracture in pastor and people relationships. The alternative is to allow oneself to be ruled by a lily-livered pragmatism which in the end does not win men’s respect and only serves to undermine our Church’s mission to the world. The apostles themselves never shunned speaking unpalatable truths and did not go out of their way to court popularity to avoid giving offence. Indeed, St. Paul said to the Galatians, “Have I then become your enemy by telling you the truth?” (Gal. 4: 16).

Sorry, dear friend, but a morbid fear of offending some unspiritual members of the flock can result in rendering a man ineffective and powerless, especially in his pulpit labours. On the other hand, a faithful and loving pastor who reproves will, at length, be respected and vindicated, perhaps even by those who at first object strongly to his supposedly ‘hardline’ approach. Moreover, his faithful and uncompromising preaching may even result in the worldly having a change of heart, provided that Father is steadfast and does not buckle under pressure.

The local church, dear friend, is only microcosom of the great Vatican church and thus equally requires a dress code in these morally decadent times. Even a gentleman’s club here in the UK has its rules with which the members must abide by. Thus, for example, I could not enter the club unless I was properly attired, which would include wearing a sober tie and at the very least a sports jacket or blazer with flannels. Now if a secular club has rules respecting dress, then why cannot a church also, especially as it is a more sacred place where God is very much present? Those who depart, simply because the priest says or does something that they dislike, are quite frankly behaving in a jolly puerile and un-Catholic manner, if I may say, and need a good dressing down. Rules are rules and must therefore be obeyed, unless they are contrary to the law of God.

God bless.

Warmest good wishes,

Portrait

Pax

Well said!

Thanks for your post.

Blessings!

 

[EasterJoy]

Since when is a bare arm immodest/shoulder immodest? I suppose if you were muslim.

If someone was lusting after my arm I think I would laugh at them and think “poor guy, he’s really got problems.”

I think the real problem is not with what we wear but how we look at the body! What if a woman has to feed her baby with her boob? Would that be considered immodest? The baby has to eat!

Well, the baby has to be conceived, too, but that doesn’t mean there needs to be an audience for the beautiful event.

There is a world of distance between what a burqa covers and what parts of the bodies of the faithful (male and female) are to be seen in churches these days, both in terms of how short the clothing is, how tight it is, and how obviously it is intended for non-liturgical activities (such as basketball, just as an example). Yet if anyone dares to complain, what is heard? A chorus of “Muslim! Puritan! Dirty old men!!” I don’t know how much has to be taken off before there is some sense that it is too much. Suggest that maybe clothing other than basketball jerseys and hot pants might be more appropriate, and the concern flies that if people are asked to dress a little better, well, you’re going to have a police state instead of a church and people will just stop coming. Good grief, is that how much people expect the world to revolve around them? Their kids are in $90 sneakers, but they can’t afford something not purchased from Dick’s Sporting Goods?

“All that, your patient would probably classify as “Puritanism”—and may I remark in passing that the value we have given to that word is one of the really solid triumphs of the last hundred years? By it we rescue annually thousands of humans from temperance, chastity, and sobriety of life.” C.S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters, #10

 

[EasterJoy]

---

I’d say – there are others-- who need professional therapy. Like the kind – who view women as a collection of body parts. Of course – the dysfunction is covered up under a white wash of “religious piousness” ---- harping on “modesty”.

If it is false piety to talk about modesty, please tell me what true piety looks like. Is it possible that the actual dysfunction is a need for exhibitionism that doesn’t want to be called for what it is?

Why on earth do I keep hearing Catholic women talking about not wanting to wear clothing that isn’t “sexy” enough? Sexy? For church? Really? But that is how they talk, as if clothing that can’t be described as sexy is the equivalent of a burqa, as if it is a virtue to “flaunt it if you got it.” That is the opposite of modesty, but it is dirty talk to tell an American that he or she ought not show off. That is too “pious”…which we have to worry about, because heaven knows that the American church is being overrun by the pious.

When anyone who objects to a standard of “decency” that has been in place for less than 60 of the last 2,000 years is thought to be in need of “professional therapy,” the inmates are running the asylum.

 

[Walking_Home]

If it is false piety to talk about modesty, please tell me what true piety looks like. Is it possible that the actual dysfunction is a need for exhibitionism that doesn’t want to be called for what it is?

Why on earth do I keep hearing Catholic women talking about not wanting to wear clothing that isn’t “sexy” enough? Sexy? For church? Really? But that is how they talk, as if clothing that can’t be described as sexy is the equivalent of a burqa, as if it is a virtue to “flaunt it if you got it.” That is the opposite of modesty, but it is dirty talk to tell an American that he or she ought not show off. That is too “pious”…which we have to worry about, because heaven knows that the American church is being overrun by the pious.

When anyone who objects to a standard of “decency” that has been in place for less than 60 of the last 2,000 years is thought to be in need of “professional therapy,” the inmates are running the asylum.

---

I’d say the inmates running the asylum – are the ones threatening to throw out anyone who does not fit their standard of “modesty”. Might as well start a “cast” system – where the “undesirables” are not fit to enter the temples.

 

[grasscutter]

I will answer the second question, though both of these underlie the problem with a dress code. Is it too much to ask? No, but it is too much to require. Not every one has the commitment to Christ that the priest has. Not all who come to Church are in the same stage of maturity on their spiritual journey. The problem with the whole warm water spewing application is that it applied to a church, not a person, and it was Christ who said that enough was enough, not Church ushers. We are admonished not to judge others in matters that Christ alone is judge. We should never try and usurp the role of determining when God’s mercy has reached an end, especially over something as ridiculous as dress.

Everyone who comes to Mass dressed immodestly needs to be treated as an injured person entering the hospital, though we ourselves are patients. We must never thing that because we have a higher sense of modesty or holiness that we are in any position judge others. Compared to the holiness that God demands, we really are no more than a little further along than that girl that shows her shoulders or knees, or wears a tee shirt with an inappropriate remark. Rather let us embrace in love all those who enter our doors. Let use work on the interior and the exterior will naturally follow.

I get what you’re saying and I’m not in favour of imposing a dress code. Of course welcome everyone! And, later, the priest could gently suggest proper attire for the future. But really, I don’t think covering knees and shoulders is “over-the-top-radical-modesty” that impinges unduly upon people.

As a side note, the golf course I work at does not allow sleeveless shirts for men or women. Today it was 34 degrees and people didn`t seem bothered about having to keep their shoulders covered in order to participate in a meaningless, elitist, quasi-sport.

 

[catholictiger]

long post but here we go

Dear catholictiger,

Hello again and thankyou for your response.

and thanks for yours as well

May I just say at the outset, my dear friend, that I recognise your good intentions for your future flock and appreciate that you have no desire to unnecessarily alienate them. Our lot is cast in very difficult times, as so many rank and file Catholics in the West have adopted a hand in hand with the world type of religion, a sort of ‘Catholicism Lite’, to use George Weigel’s happy turn of phrase.

I defiantly realize this and I also realize that it needs great change and we can’t accept it, and as I will show later I don’t quite agree with how we should go about it, I guess my priorities as to who or what matters in this case vary slightly different than yours and that is why we have different views on this.

However, the plain truth is that multitudes of modern Catholics, even among the doctrinally orthodox, have become thoroughly inbued with the spirit of the age and as a consequence are making some jolly catastrophic errors of prudential judgment, including their choice of clothing.

yes I don’t disagree, this is a major problem and has to be addressed.

Moreover, there is sadly this view among some contemporary Catholics that the Church cannot attract and keep souls by being itself, it must adapt to modern ideas and play along with the secular culture and even be a part of it.

I don’t have this view at all, I think it is a dangerous view. The orthodox way is the only way to go

This is a grave mistake and is undermining our credibility in the eyes of the world, who look to the Church and expect to see men living unworldly lives that are very different from their own. After all, dear friend, we do profess godliness and claim to have our mind fixed upon heavenly things (Col. 3: 2). Thus the worldling, quite rightly, does not expect to see a young professing Catholic female donning provocative style fashions, such as a mini-skirt, and certainly not attending Sunday Mass attired in such seductive vesture.

you make good points, and I don’t think I would ever be ok with someone wearing a mini skirt to mass, I just don’t think you should address that issue if a handful of people do it by saying this is what you have to wear to mass. Its a little bit of overreacting IMO. When you get a chance go up to that women and say wearing a mini skirt to mass is inappropriate you should wear things at-least knee length. If it is such a problem in mass that you can’t handle it one on one then you bring it up in a homily saying how it is important to dress modestly in church and in general as well. Maybe try a bulletin article before that. You probably also ask some of your more faithful parishioners to talk to people about inappropriate dress. But saying this is how you HAVE to dress at mass is IMO going to far. You make the same point in a much more charitable and pastoral way, while having the same effect just losing less of your flock.

In the light of this, dear friend, I think it imperative that we present the whole truth to our flock and withhold nothing that is profitable to their advancement in holy living, no matter how hard or unpaletable this may be to some

I don’t disagree but implementing a dress code, I don’t think, is the way to do it.

Modern Catholics must be made aware of the arduous demands of our most holy religion and that they are called to the pursuit of holiness, which involves not being conformed to the world and its vulgar tastes, be it in clothing or anything else.

and this is what I preach in the pulpit, hopefully I have the courage to do it and not worry about what people think.

We are all called to sanctity and separation from the godless world, it is not merely for a few thoroughgoing spiritual types. True, dear brother, it is very possible that you will loose some half-hearted worldly parishioners, who do not want anyone telling them what to do, that I will concede. However, an obligation is surely laid upon a priest to afflict the comfortable, as well as comforting the afflicted, even if this does cause a fracture in pastor and people relationships. The alternative is to allow oneself to be ruled by a lily-livered pragmatism which in the end does not win men’s respect and only serves to undermine our Church’s mission to the world. The apostles themselves never shunned speaking unpalatable truths and did not go out of their way to court popularity to avoid giving offence. Indeed, St. Paul said to the Galatians, “Have I then become your enemy by telling you the truth?” (Gal. 4: 16).

I agree and sorry if I came out seeing this way, but implementing a dress code in a church is IMO a little to far. You can have the same effect and lose less parishioners with an effective homily, an effective bulletin article. People are going to respond a lot better to you giving a convincing homily about not dressing inappropriately at mass. Then just saying dress like this and that is that.

Sorry, dear friend, but a morbid fear of offending some unspiritual members of the flock can result in rendering a man ineffective and powerless, especially in his pulpit labours. On the other hand, a faithful and loving pastor who reproves will, at length, be respected and vindicated, perhaps even by those who at first object strongly to his supposedly ‘hardline’ approach. Moreover, his faithful and uncompromising preaching may even result in the worldly having a change of heart, provided that Father is steadfast and does not buckle under pressure.

yes sorry I sounded this way, I guess another way to say it is that implementing a dress code which the OP like the vatican is going to far, rather I would say dress to impress and don’t dress in a way that can be considered inappropriate. I would think the majority of parishes by those two simple phrases would dress a lot better.

The local church, dear friend, is only microcosom of the great Vatican church and thus equally requires a dress code in these morally decadent times.

theologically speaking yes, but the make up of the people who go there are different. Just because the vatican has some rule, that isn’t applied universally doesn’t mean we should accept it as a universal law. Now if the pope came out one day and said everyone should follow the Vatican dress code, well guess what we would, but he hasn’t. The pope requires communion on the tounge should we require that in parishes? I’m sure I can think of other examples, but a priest has to know his flock and he has to discern what is appropriate for his parish in reaching a goal of having a more reverent mass. Something like the OP suggested may not work at every parish.

Even a gentleman’s club here in the UK has its rules with which the members must abide by. Thus, for example, I could not enter the club unless I was properly attired, which would include wearing a sober tie and at the very least a sports jacket or blazer with flannels. Now if a secular club has rules respecting dress, then why cannot a church also, especially as it is a more sacred place where God is very much present?

I never said it shouldn’t I’m just disagreeing the way we should address the issue

Those who depart, simply because the priest says or does something that they dislike, are quite frankly behaving in a jolly puerile and un-Catholic manner, if I may say, and need a good dressing down. Rules are rules and must therefore be obeyed, unless they are contrary to the law of God.

I notice we are going to lose people, but I just don’t like the attitude lets be rough tough and forget about the people who leave. It seems like you are kinda talking like that even though I’m sure your not. There are ALWAYS efficient ways to do things in a parish. Also as a priest I would never ever walk into a parish and change things on the spot, because you would loose good faithful Catholics along with half hearted catholics. Even if those changes are for the good. The only changes I would make are things that may have happened that are illicit. I think dress could fit under that category I just disagree with the way you do it. I hope you see what your getting at.

but just a couple examples lets say I go into a parish that has an alter rail that isn’t used, I wouldn’t walk in and force people to start using the alter rail, I would bring it to the parish council and say what would you think if we start using this alter rail, than bring it up in an announcement that we are going to start using an alter rail for optional use on sundays. And slowly move on.

Or lets say a church uses to many EMHC, I wouldn’t walk in and take out 5 right off the bat I would slowly decrees the use. I understand these aren’t the same issues, but a priest must do things as a pastor not as an enforcer of Catholic laws. I’m not saying to avoid the tough issues, what I’m saying is address the tough issues in a way that is charitable and pastoral. The suggested that is being debated is not charitable enough in my view, if I were put in a parish with a small dress problem, or even large dress problem.

 

[Moore11]

I like the guidelines as a general rule. Of course exceptions could be make in a jungle or in War or in a poverty stricken land. But millions of Catholics make a pilgrimage to The Vatican and are expected to dress a certain way. even non Catholics are expected. We could have little paper coverups for others

Rome can be 90 and humid or freezing cold.
Imagine walking into a Mosque or any other place of worship and not be expected to adhere to their idea of being respectful.

 

[catholictiger]

I feel like I need to make something clearly.

I believe there is a difference immodesty and inappropriate dress. When I become priest I would NEVER accept immodesty, never. But while I wouldn’t let it become a problem I would at time let inappropriate dress slip, but address it if it ever became a problem.

so if a women was wearing a low cut dress that showed to much chest, that was backless, was wearing a mini skirt. To mass I would go up to her and say you shouldn’t wear that to church again.

but lets say a guy comes to mass in cargo shorts and a untucked polo shirt. While many of you may think that is inappropriate I would probably let that slide. Or someone shows up to mass in a t-shirt, with a sports team on it, nothing vulgar written on the shirt. I would let that slide. Now if a large percentage of my congregation was wearing things like I have described above I would go through what I have explained. Talking about the importance of dressing nicely to church, wear your sunday best, and so on and so forth. But I would never ever have a dress code for mass.

the only rule I would consider is no dress that reveals parts of your body that are only meant for a bedroom of married couples, or no shorts that are so short that you could see up them to the crotch, so pretty much down to the knee. But I would only use this in a parish which dress problem is so bad that its the only way to fix it.

 

[dean24us]

I feel like I need to make something clearly.

I believe there is a difference immodesty and inappropriate dress. When I become priest I would NEVER accept immodesty, never. But while I wouldn’t let it become a problem I would at time let inappropriate dress slip, but address it if it ever became a problem.

so if a women was wearing a low cut dress that showed to much chest, that was backless, was wearing a mini skirt. To mass I would go up to her and say you shouldn’t wear that to church again.

but lets say a guy comes to mass in cargo shorts and a untucked polo shirt. While many of you may think that is inappropriate I would probably let that slide. Or someone shows up to mass in a t-shirt, with a sports team on it, nothing vulgar written on the shirt. I would let that slide. Now if a large percentage of my congregation was wearing things like I have described above I would go through what I have explained. Talking about the importance of dressing nicely to church, wear your sunday best, and so on and so forth. But I would never ever have a dress code for mass.

the only rule I would consider is no dress that reveals parts of your body that are only meant for a bedroom of married couples, or no shorts that are so short that you could see up them to the crotch, so pretty much down to the knee. But I would only use this in a parish which dress problem is so bad that its the only way to fix it.

I’m against the “dress code” idea in general, primarily on the grounds that the people who are dressed “inappropriately” are probably the ones most in need of the Church’s message – the “I did not come to call the righteous but sinners” concept. However, I actually agree with your “immodest vs inappropriate” argument and approach. I think the key distinction here is the reaction it evokes in others. It bugs me when I see men wearing shorts during mass or a woman wearing a sports jersey (seems to happen a lot around here during football season), but I don’t believe it takes away from my experience – I might be annoyed, but it doesn’t interfere with my worship. However, as much as I try not to, I can’t help but dwell on a person that is dressed provocatively, which (either on a conscious or unconscious level) does indeed interfere with my ability to experience mass.

Naturally, the problem here is that some will see women as being singled out under the method you stated. I don’t think you’ll run in to many men running “too revealing” clothes (at least, I REALLY hope you don’t), but you’ll probably have one or more women every Sunday. As such, you’ll give the false perception that you’re sexist, despite your good intentions.

God bless,
Dean

 

[catholictiger]

I’m against the “dress code” idea in general, primarily on the grounds that the people who are dressed “inappropriately” are probably the ones most in need of the Church’s message – the “I did not come to call the righteous but sinners” concept. However, I actually agree with your “immodest vs inappropriate” argument and approach. I think the key distinction here is the reaction it evokes in others. It bugs me when I see men wearing shorts during mass or a woman wearing a sports jersey (seems to happen a lot around here during football season), but I don’t believe it takes away from my experience – I might be annoyed, but it doesn’t interfere with my worship. However, as much as I try not to, I can’t help but dwell on a person that is dressed provocatively, which (either on a conscious or unconscious level) does indeed interfere with my ability to experience mass.

Naturally, the problem here is that some will see women as being singled out under the method you stated. I don’t think you’ll run in to many men running “too revealing” clothes (at least, I REALLY hope you don’t), but you’ll probably have one or more women every Sunday. As such, you’ll give the false perception that you’re sexist, despite your good intentions.

God bless,
Dean

This is a very good point and I will take it into account, I guess If immodesty was a major problem at Mass I would address ways that men could dress immodestly and how women could dress immodestly. Hopefully this issue can be handled by the people in the parish simply by talking to them after mass and saying you can’t dress like that.

thanks for the advice

 

[CesarAugustus]

Communion in the tongue optional?

I think the Vatican standard should be followed everywhere. Communion in the hand was given an indult (enforced suspiciously in places like Colombia and Argentina) and is not something desirable. I hope that the problem should be solved soon.

Blessings!