The Dumbest thing that I have asked so far...

[Mickey]

Can you put up a quick link showing Early Church Fathers calling the Church the Orthodox Catholic Church?

I used to have quotes of Fathers referring to the Church as Orthodox and Catholic. But I seemed to have lost them in a recent purge and I do not have the time to research them again. Sorry. Perhaps someone else here can find them. However, finding quotes of early Church Fathers who call the Church Orthodox or Catholic or Orthodox and Catholic–will prove what?

 

[Mickey]

Notice: Not a mention of “Orthodox”.

Catholic means universal and orthodox means true teaching or right faith. You have proved nothing.

Are you saying that your church is not orthodox?

 

[Peter_J]

Well, when I was in communion with Rome, I was called by a variety of titles. Latin Catholic, Roman Catholic, Catholic. When I was in the Eastern Catholic Church I was called: Byzantine Catholic, Ruthenian Catholic, Eastern Catholic, Roman Catholic, Catholic.

But I was never called late for dinner.

Very good. Very good. You know what? No soup for you!

(I usually say Roman Catholic)

Funny thing about that is that if I, a Catholic, were to say “the Roman Catholic Church” referring to all those in full communion with Pope Benedict XVI, Orthodox posters would accuse of trying to Romanize the Eastern Catholic Churches.

“To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like? They are like children who sit in the market place and call to one another, and they say, ‘We played the flute for you, and you did not dance; we sang a dirge, and you did not weep.’” Hmm … who was it that said that?

 

[Eucharisted]

I just found a useful website that lists all the Church Fathers who name the Catholic Church “Catholic Church”. Here’s the link to it:

geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3975/challch.htm

 

[twb1621]

When a group leaves the Church, they end up with a new name. For example, the up-starts in Germany became Lutheran. The Swiss became Calvinists. Then, when those groups split, the new one takes a new name as well.

Now, if the Catholic Church left Orthodoxy, why did we keep the name? Why did we not become something else and they retain the name CAtholic?

The Catholic Church did not leave orthodoxy, the catholic church (pope) excommunicated the leader of what became the orthodox branch. Read the following;
The division started over two brothers each wanting equal rule politically over their inherited geographic regions.
Until 1054 AD Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism were branches of the same body—the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. This date marks an important moment in the history of all Christian denominations because it designates the very first major division in Christianity and the beginning of “denominations.” Disagreement between these two branches of Christendom had already long existed, but the widening gap between the Roman and Eastern churches increased throughout the first millennium with a progression of worsening disputes. This slow process of separation was encouraged in 330 AD when Emperor Constantine decided to move the capital of the Roman Empire to the city of Byzantium (Byzantine Empire, modern-day Turkey) and called it Constantinople. When he died his two sons divided their rule, one taking the Eastern portion of the empire and ruling from Constantinople and the other taking the western portion, ruling from Rome.
In 1054 AD a formal split occurred when Pope Leo IX (leader of the Roman branch) excommunicated the Patriarch of Constantinople, Michael Cerularius (leader of the Eastern branch), who in turn condemned the pope in mutual excommunication. Two primary disputes at the time were Rome’s claim to a universal papal supremacy and the adding of the filioque to the Nicene Creed. This particular conflict is also known as the Filioque Controversy. The Latin word filioque means “and from the Son.” It had been inserted into the Nicene Creed during the 6th century, thus changing the phrase pertaining to the origin of the Holy Spirit from “who proceeds from the Father” to “who proceeds from the Father and the Son.” It had been added to emphasize Christ’s divinity, but Eastern Christians not only objected to the altering of anything produced by the first ecumenical councils, they disagreed with its new meaning. Eastern Christians believe both the Spirit and the Son have their origin in the Father.
Michael Cerularius was the Patriarch of Constantinople from 1043 -1058 AD, during Eastern Orthodoxy’s formal separation from the Roman Catholic Church. He played a prominent role in the circumstances surrounding the Great East-West Schism.

 

[Mickey]

I agree with a lot of what you’re saying, but it seems to me that a great many Protestants and Orthodox call us “the Catholic Church”, without really believing that we are.

Maybe you guys need to, shall we say, “get your story straight”

Should we not respect what you call yourself? Would you like us to say “The Catholic Church that veered from the true faith and added a plethora of innovations to the Apostolic teachings and is not really Catholic any longer”.

That is a bit much to say.

 

[Mickey]

Funny thing about that is that if I, a Catholic, were to say “the Roman Catholic Church” referring to all those in full communion with Pope Benedict XVI, Orthodox posters would accuse of trying to Romanize the Eastern Catholic Churches.

Yes. I get yelled at sometimes for using the word “Roman”.

I was born and raised–baptised, first communion, and chrismated as a Roman Catholic. I do not understand why some “Catholics” are offended by that title.

 

[Eucharisted]

From the geocities site which I linked to in my previous post, the list of Church Fathers who reference the name “Catholic Church”:

• means more references than listed.
  The Jxxx is the section number in Jurgens, ‘Faith of the Early Fathers’.

---

The Catholic Church mentioned by name…

*Ignatius, Letter to the Smyrneans 8:1-2. J65 106AD (On this website)
Martyrdom of St. Polycarp 16:2. J77,79,80a,81a, 155AD
*Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis 7:17:107:3. J435 202AD
Cyprian, Unity of the Catholic Church 4-6. J555-557 251AD
Cyprian, Letter to Florentius 66:69:8. J587 254AD
*Lactantius,Divine Institutions 4:30:1. *J637 304AD
Alexander of Alexandria, Letters 12. J680 324AD
Athanasius, Letter on Council of Nicea 27. J757 350AD
*Athanasius, Letter to Serapion 1:28. J782 359AD
Athanasius, Letter to Council of Rimini 5. J785 361AD
*Cyril of Jerusalem, Catachetical Lectures 18:1. J836-*839
Damasus, Decree of Damasus 3. J910u 382AD
Serapion, The Sacramentary 13:1. J1239a 350AD
*Pacian of Barcelona, Letter to Sympronian 1:4 J1243 375AD
*Augustine, Letter to Vincent the Rogatist 93:7:23. J1422
Augustine, Letter to Vitalis 217:5:16. J1456 427AD
*Augustine, Psalms 88:2:14, 90:2:1. J1478-1479 418AD
*Augustine, Sermons 2, 267:4. *J1492, *J1523 430AD
*Augustine, Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed 6:14. J1535
*Augustine, The True Religion 7:12+. *J1548, *J1562, J1564
**Augustine, Against the Letter of Mani 4:5. *J1580-1581
*Augustine, Christian Instruction 2:8:12+. *J1584, J1617
Augustine, Baptism 4:21:28+. J1629, J1714, J1860a, J1882
*Augustine, Against the Pelagians 2:3:5+. *J1892, *J1898
Innocent I, Letter to Probus 36. J2017
*Fulgence of Ruspe, Forgiveness of Sins 1:19:2, J2251-2252, 523AD

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The Antiquity of the Catholic Church…

Hermas, The Shepherd Vis 2:4:1. J82
Anonymous 2nd Letter of Clement to Corinthians 14:2. J105
Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis 7:17:107:3. J435
Augustine, Letter to Deogratias 102:15. J1428
*Augustine, Psalms 90:2:1. J1479
Augustine, Predestination of Saints 9:18. J1985
Gregory I, Letter to John 5:44:18. J2295 595AD

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The Catholic Church Will Last Forever…
Hmmm, GOD and the Church Fathers all said the Catholic Church
will last forever.
Show me your proof of where YOU say it ended!

Clement, Letter to Corinthians 42:1,64. J20,29a 80AD
*Anonymous, 2nd letter of Clement to Rome 14:2. J105
*Cyprian, Unity of the Catholic Church 4. J555-556
Cyprian, Letter to the Lapsed 33:27:1. J571
*Hilary, The Trinity 7:4. J865 Augustine, Psalms 90:2:1. J1479
*Augustine, Sermon to Catechumens 6:14. J1535

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The Catholic Church Founded…

Clement, Letter to Corinthians 42:1. J20
*Hermas, The Shepherd Vis 2:4:1-3:5:1. J82-84 140AD
Anonymous, Letter of Clement 14:2. J105
Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:16:6. J217a
Tertullian, Demurrer Against Heretics 9:3. J289
*Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis 7:17:107:3. J435 202AD
Cyprian, Unity of the Catholic Church 4. J555-556
*Cyprian, Letter to the Lapsed 33:27:1. J571
*Hilary of Poitiers, The Trinity 7:4. J865
*Augustine, Homilies on John 9:10. J1814

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The Catholic Church In Rome Founded…

*Clement, Letter to the Corinthians, Address. J10a 80AD
Ignatius, Letter to the Romans, J52
*Irenaeus, Against Heresies 3:3:3. J210-211
Cyprian, Letter to Cornelius 59:55:14. J580
*Council of Constantinople, Canon3. J910d
*Damasus, Decree of Damasus 3. J910u
*Optatus of Melvis, Schism of Donatists 2:2. J1242

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Catholic Church Unity…

Didache 4:3. J1b
Ignatius, Letter to the Philadelphians 3:2. J56
Tertullian, Demurrer Against Heretics 20:4. J292
*Cyprian, Unity of the Catholic Church 4. J555-556

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Catholic Church Universal…

Didache, 9:1,10:1. J6,7
Clement, Letter to Corinthians 5:1. J11
Ignatius, Letter to the Ephesians 3:2. J38
Martyrdom of St. Polycarp, Address. J77,79,81a
Hermas, The Shepherd Par 9:17:4. J93
Anonymous, Letter to Diogenetus 6:1. J97a
Aristides of Athens, Apology 15. J112
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho 110. J144
*Irenaeus, Against Heresies 1:10:1. J191,192,215,257
*The Muratorian Fragment. J268
*Tertullian, Against the Jews 7:4. J320a
Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation Greeks 10:110:1. J405
*Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures 18:23. J838
*Damasus, Decree of Damasus 3. J910u

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One Church Only…

Cyprian, Unity of the Catholic Church 4. J555-556,573

 

[Mickey]

The Catholic Church did not leave orthodoxy

I believe they did.

 

[Mickey]

the list of Church Fathers who reference the name “Catholic Church”:

LoL! You are wasting your time. Everyone knows that the True Apostolic Church is catholic and orthodox.

May you find your way back home to the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church—the Holy Orthodox Church.

 

[peary]

The proper title for Holy Orthodoxy is: The Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.

Orthodox means correct (or true) belief.
Catholic means universal.

I have YET to have run into an orthodox church refer to itself as “The Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.” Orthodox churches do not have the word ‘Catholic’ on the outside, although they will have a saint’s name. And I have yet to hear any orthodox individual refer to himself/herself as an “orthodox catholic.” I think you are trying to make a stretch that doesn’t exist.

 

[Steadfast]

In most cases, I think the reason Orthodox churches do not usually refer to themselves as “Catholic” is because the word is associated with those churches in communion with the Bishop of Rome.

This is the same reason most confessional Protestants will go without the upper case “c” when describing themselves as “catholic” which they do not do often except in debate.

Both, however, fully accept the idea of catholicity; i.e. solidarity of belief.

 

[Eucharisted]

Catholic means universal and orthodox means true teaching or right faith. You have proved nothing.

Are you saying that your church is not orthodox?

No, I’m saying you Orthodox have no historical evidence that your Church is the true Church, and you presume that belief = truth (i.e., “well if I believe the Orthodox Church is true than it must be so”), and you alter history to make your Church look good (i.e., saying Ignatius came after Peter, when all historical evidence shows it is Linus).

But I’ve done my part in this thread. I’ve shown the truth, I’ve given historical evidence - the writings of the Church - for my claims, my claim that the name “Catholic Church” is ancient and there is not one mention of the name “Orthodox” as some people claim.

So I bid you all a goodnight!

 

[Steadfast]

For my part, I call you all “Catholic” because it’s what you like to be called even though we could debate endlessly whether you really are or not.

In the same way, you call me “Lutheran” even though the things I believe go well beyond just the writings of Martin Luther.

To constantly have to explain what we mean would be tedious and time wasting.

 

[Peter_J]

Should we not respect what you call yourself?

Yes certainly – within reason. For example, we (Catholics) call the Eastern Orthodox “the Eastern Orthodox”, with little danger of people thinking that we are expressing full agreement with your teachings, and we call the Church of England “the Church of England”, with little danger of people thinking that we consider them a valid church.

On the other hand, if the National Catholic Church (a.k.a. the Polish National Catholic Church) decided to call themselves simply “the Catholic Church”, then we would say Sorry, we can’t oblige you with that name.

Would you like us to say “The Catholic Church that veered from the true faith and added a plethora of innovations to the Apostolic teachings and is not really Catholic any longer”.

Nope (but thank you for asking ).

 

[Mickey]

I have YET to have run into an orthodox church refer to itself as “The Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.” Orthodox churches do not have the word ‘Catholic’ on the outside, although they will have a saint’s name. And I have yet to hear any orthodox individual refer to himself/herself as an “orthodox catholic.” I think you are trying to make a stretch that doesn’t exist.

Then you do not get around much.

 

[Mickey]

No, I’m saying you Orthodox have no historical evidence that your Church is the true Church

Now that is funny!
Read the Sacred Scriptures. Study the Sacred Tradition. Read the Church Fathers. There is your historical evidence for the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.

It may not fit into your skewed scholastic understanding of things–but perhaps the scales will fall from your eyes.

St. Cyril of Alexandria**, Letter to Nestorius:
****“Peter and John were equal in dignity and honour. Christ is the foundation of all -the unshakeable Rock upon which we are all built as a spiritual edifice.”
**

 

[ralphinal]

I used to have quotes of Fathers referring to the Church as Orthodox and Catholic. But I seemed to have lost them in a recent purge and I do not have the time to research them again. Sorry. Perhaps someone else here can find them. However, finding quotes of early Church Fathers who call the Church Orthodox or Catholic or Orthodox and Catholic–will prove what?

I just wanted it for curiosity. It will not prove anything, really. I know how much folks LOVE quoting Church fathers.

 

[twb1621]

I believe they did.

No disrespect to you intended but you may believe as you choose however historically including those of non-Christian sources it has been attested to standardly just as the excerpt staes in Post #25.

 

[Mickey]

No disrespect to you intended but you may believe as you choose.

Thank you. I stand with Holy Orthodoxy in my belief that the Latin Catholic Church went into schism from the Apostolic faith.

Through the dogma of “Infallibility” the Western church lost its spiritual freedom. It lost its beauty and balance, and was deprived of the wealth of the grace of the Holy Spirit, the presence of Christ- from spirit and soul ended up a dead body. We are truly grieved for the injustice done to the church and we pray from the bottom of our hearts that the Holy Spirit illumine the mind and the heart of the Most Blessed Pontiff to have him return to the ONE, HOLY, CATHOLIC AND APOSTOLIC CHURCH that which he took from her, something that should never have taken place.
St. Nektarios of Aegina