The Dumbest thing that I have asked so far...

[twb1621]

Emphasis mine.

Futhermore, St Peter was a great Apostle and is venerated along with St Paul. There is a great feast day attributed to their veneration preceded by a three week fast.

**St. Cyprian of Carthage, On the Unity of the Church:
**
"If anyone considers and examines these things, there is no need of a lengthy discussion and arguments. Proof for faith is easy in a brief statement of the truth. The Lord speaks to Peter: ‘I say to thee,’ He says, 'thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. And I will give thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound also in heaven, and whatever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed also in heaven. ’ Upon him, being one, He builds His Church, and although after His resurrection He bestows equal power upon all the Apostles, and says: 'As the Father has sent me, I also send you. Receive ye the Holy Spirit: if you forgive the sins of anyone, they will be forgiven him; if you retain the sins of anyone, they will be retained, yet that He might display unity, He established by His authority the origin of the same unity as beginning from one. Certainly the other Apostles also were what Peter was, endued with an equal fellowship both of honour and power; but a commencement is made from unity, that the Church may be set before as one; which one Church, in the Song of Songs, doth the Holy Spirit design and name in the Person of our Lord: My dove, My spotless one, is but one; she is the only one of her mother, elect of her that bare her (Cant. 9:6) (A Library of the Fathers of the Holy Catholic Church (Oxford: Parker, 1844), Cyprian, On The Unity of the Church 3, p. 133).

Hi Mickey,
your responding to these excerpts thinking they are to support infalibility. That was not the subject they refer to. They were to issues I was discussing with StMarina303ad and My point here in providing these is that both your church and mine when they were one for centuries followed the CF and in these quotes the Church Fathers are supporting the principal that the Holy Spirit came from both the Father and the Son and that the Son came from heaven at which time the Holy Spirit annointed Him in His human form.

Additionally, in all posts I provided quotes of the Church Fathers supporting the recognition of the papal seat and that Saint Peter was the first central authority over the entire church as well as it being then and throughout the vertually all of 2000 years, in Rome .

 

[Mickey]

twb1621:
Augustine Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear “I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven” (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).
Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter? (Commentary on John 56:1 [A.D. 416]).
St Augustine
In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: ‘On him as on a rock the Church was built’…But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’ that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven.’ For, ‘Thou art Peter’ and not ‘Thou art the rock’ was said to him. But ‘the rock was Christ,’ in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable (The Fathers of the Church (Washington D.C., Catholic University, 1968), Saint Augustine, The Retractations Chapter 20.1).

And I tell you…‘You are Peter, Rocky, and on this rock I shall build my Church, and the gates of the underworld will not conquer her. To you shall I give the keys of the kingdom. Whatever you bind on earth shall also be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall also be loosed in heaven’ (Mt 16:15-19). In Peter, Rocky, we see our attention drawn to the rock. Now the apostle Paul says about the former people, ‘They drank from the spiritual rock that was following them; but the rock was Christ’ (1 Cor 10:4). So this disciple is called Rocky from the rock, like Christian from Christ…Why have I wanted to make this little introduction? In order to suggest to you that in Peter the Church is to be recognized. Christ, you see, built his Church not on a man but on Peter’s confession. What is Peter’s confession? ‘You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.’ There’s the rock for you, there’s the foundation, there’s where the Church has been built, which the gates of the underworld cannot conquer (John Rotelle, Ed., The Works of Saint Augustine (New Rochelle: New City Press, 1993), Sermons, Vol. 6, Sermon 229P.1, p. 327).

 

[Mickey]

Hi Mickey,
your responding to these excerpts thinking they are to support infalibility. That was not the subject they refer to. They were to issues I was discussing with StMarina303ad and My point here in providing these is that both your church and mine when they were one for centuries followed the CF and in these quotes the Church Fathers are supporting the principal that the Holy Spirit came from both the Father and the Son and that the Son came from heaven at which time the Holy Spirit annointed Him in His human form.

Additionally, in all posts I provided quotes of the Church Fathers supporting the recognition of the papal seat and that Saint Peter was the first central authority over the entire church as well as it being then and throughout the vertually all of 2000 years, in Rome .

Yes. And my point is that the Pope was always in accordance with the praxis of Holy Orthodoxy. The Pope was Orthodox–not like today’s Roman Catholic Pope after Rome went into schism. Furthermore, the Filioque was not inserted into the original Creed and should not be there today. Even your Eastern Catholics agree with that. Rome changed it when it should not have been modified.

John 15:26
But when the Paraclete cometh, whom I will send you from the Father, the Spirit of truth, who proceedeth from the Father, he shall give testimony of me.

 

[twb1621]

Yes. And my point is that the Pope was always in accordance with the praxis of Holy Orthodoxy. The Pope was Orthodox–not like today’s Roman Catholic Pope after Rome went into schism.
Look, as far as I am concerned you and I can throw excerpts back and forth regarding who was at fault and so on for days but as I see it, it came down to egos and pride on both sides that split the factions. My standing is not who was at fault but who broke away from who in the sense of the original Church government. Furthermore, the Filioque was not inserted into the original Creed and should not be there today. Even your Eastern Catholics agree with that. Rome changed it when it should not have been modified. I know about the Filioque but I have never heard of anyone other than Orthodox wanting to remove it and as far as the Church fathers were concerned the excerpts clearly proclaim support in that the Holy Spirit comes of the Father through and of the son. Do you no longer respect the Church Fathers? If so, how are they wrong or what is the desnsion that makes it such a crushing issue to have the Son in such a position of recognition when He Came down from Heaven Himself?

 

[Mickey]

Look, as far as I am concerned you and I can throw excerpts back and forth regarding who was at fault and so on for days but as I see it, it came down to egos and pride on both sides that split the factions. My standing is not who was at fault but who broke away from who in the sense of the original Church government.

Exactly! Rome broke from Holy Orthodoxy. Rome’s pride (ego) will not allow Her to admit that supreme infallibility should not have been declared doctrine and was never dogma of the Apostolic Church. When Rome can humble Herself in this regard—great strides can be made.

Peace

 

[Mickey]

I know about the Filioque but I have never heard of anyone other than Orthodox wanting to remove it

It was not there in the first place! Two councils and many Popes affirmed the original. It is a RC innovation. Even most Eastern Catholics would love to see it removed.

and as far as the Church fathers were concerned the excerpts clearly proclaim support in that the Holy Spirit comes of the Father through and of the son.

Yes! But not the Father AND the Son.

Do you no longer respect the Church Fathers?

Please do not start with insults.

 

[twb1621]

It was not there in the first place! Two councils and many Popes affirmed the original. It is a RC innovation. Even most Eastern Catholics would love to see it removed.
I understand what you are saying, I guess I don’t see how this issue can be the cause of such dissension when it is not a matter of condemnation. Again, the Church Fathers in some of the excerpts claim the HS came FROM the Son also. I love them all three as one so it matters not to me .

Yes! But not the Father AND the Son. Some do say and some say through. If Jesus came down from Heaven in the first place, who really knows and does it matter to put them in oder or to recognize them as one. Thats my point.
Please do not start with insults.
Sorry, I didn’t mean that as an insult

 

[twb1621]

Exactly! Rome broke from Holy Orthodoxy. Rome’s pride (ego) will not allow Her to admit that supreme infallibility should not have been declared doctrine and was never dogma of the Apostolic Church. When Rome can humble Herself in this regard—great strides can be made.

Peace

so you blame it on Rome?

 

[twb1621]

Exactly! Rome broke from Holy Orthodoxy. Rome’s pride (ego) will not allow Her to admit that supreme infallibility should not have been declared doctrine and was never dogma of the Apostolic Church. When Rome can humble Herself in this regard—great strides can be made.

Peace

I will refer you to these quotes of the Church Fathers (below link) and point out that they speak of Rome and the seat of Peter which has never moved or fallen and has always been the authority of the Catholic Church from before your faction became individualized through to today. As such, it is those who claimed Orthodox as their deliniation who seperated from the historically supported line of Catholic Church. So you see it the other way but the point it, they (church governments on both sides who erred from both sides) need to fix it.
scripturecatholic.com/primacy_of_peter.html#tradition_III

 

[Mickey]

so you blame it on Rome?

Not personally. I believe they were deceived by the evil one.

 

[Mickey]

I will refer you to these quotes of the Church Fathers (below link) and point out that they speak of Rome and the seat of Peter which has never moved or fallen and has always been the authority of the Catholic Church from before your faction became individualized through to today.

The quotes in your link all point to the truth of the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.

The Holy Orthodox Catholic Church has St Peter and St Paul and all the Apostles, prophets, martyrs, saints and holy fathers. Rome was indeed the capital of Christianity and thoroughly Orthodox until she separated Herself and began Her innovations. The Holy Orthodox Catholic Church is the Church instituted by Jesus Christ and continues to this day. She is the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

As Abbot Jonah has written:
The focus of the life of the Church is local: a bishop surrounded by his clergy and people, celebrating the Eucharist, is the icon of the Kingdom in all its fullness. It is the actualization of the Church as the Body of Christ. The local Church headed by the bishop is itself the fullness of the Church.

The primates of the national churches are not “super-bishops.” There is no sacramental status above the ministry of bishop, so that, according to the Church’s sacramental life, all bishops are equal.

 

[twb1621]

The quotes in your link all point to the truth of the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church.

The Holy Orthodox Catholic Church has St Peter and St Paul and all the Apostles, prophets, martyrs, saints and holy fathers. Rome was indeed the capital of Christianity and thoroughly Orthodox until she separated Herself and began Her innovations. The Holy Orthodox Catholic Church is the Church instituted by Jesus Christ and continues to this day. She is the one, holy, catholic and apostolic church.

As Abbot Jonah has written:
The focus of the life of the Church is local: a bishop surrounded by his clergy and people, celebrating the Eucharist, is the icon of the Kingdom in all its fullness. It is the actualization of the Church as the Body of Christ. The local Church headed by the bishop is itself the fullness of the Church.

The primates of the national churches are not “super-bishops.” There is no sacramental status above the ministry of bishop, so that, according to the Church’s sacramental life, all bishops are equal.

Let me understand this. Lets say I am the pope ( certainly not going to happen but bare with me). And I am the authority over the entire Catholic Church seated in Rome that Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to guide promising it would never be in err according to Scripture. And a certain percentage of the church I oversee (regardless of reason) separates from me as the pope and my governmental councils and so on. According to you it is my side that has gone astray and your faction that continues to be the originating Church? I’m sorry but that is not credible no matter how much you insist on it. With that said, I realize the Orthodox Church follows much of the same beliefs but it is still separated from Rome at this point. Both Christian and non-biased historical scholars express the R. Catholic Church as the unbroken, on going Church founded by Jesus. Again, I wish it would be resolved and I do have a great respect for the people of the OC but I can not accept something supported with the logic you have expressed.

 

[Mickey]

According to you it is my side that has gone astray and your faction that continues to be the originating Church?My “faction” stayed true the apostolic Traditions, the Sacred Scripture, and the teachings of the holy Fathers. Your Pope decided to go his own way and separate from the other four Patriarchates and to begin a series of doctrinal innovations leading her down the slippery slope of heterodoxy. I know that this is not pleasant for you to hear–but it is truth.

The one separated from the four.

I’m sorry but that is not credible no matter how much you insist on it.
You may believe what you wish.

twb1621:
Both Christian and non-biased historical scholars express the R. Catholic Church as the unbroken, on going Church founded by Jesus.
I think you can make a case for apostolic succession, but Rome needs to return to the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church so that she can once again take her place amongst the other Patriarchates.

twb1621:
Again, I wish it would be resolved and I do have a great respect for the people of the OC but I can not accept something supported with the logic you have expressed.Until the veil is lifted from your eyes, there is not much I will be able to say to help you identify the errors of Rome.

God bless you on your pilgrimage to eternity.

 

[StMarina303ad]

My “faction” stayed true the apostolic Traditions, the Sacred Scripture, and the teachings of the holy Fathers. Your Pope decided to go his own way and separate from the other four Patriarchates and to begin a series of doctrinal innovations leading her down the slippery slope of heterodoxy. I know that this is not pleasant for you to hear–but it is truth.

The one separated from the four.

You may believe what you wish.

I think you can make a case for apostolic succession, but Rome needs to return to the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church so that she can once again take her place amongst the other Patriarchates.
Until the veil is lifted from your eyes, there is not much I will be able to say to help you identify the errors of Rome.

God bless you on your pilgrimage to eternity.

Prayer and Fasting are so important some times it is the only way to lift some demons or lift a veil a demon has used to cover one’s eyes with to prevent them from seeing the truth.

Do you think that if the Catholic Church simply returned to their former days simply of Fasting, truly Fasting - not this “giving up something you like bit”, each Wednesday and Friday as is mandated in the Canons of the Apostles that it alone could help the Catholic Church to lift that veil and come back to her senses, back to her roots of Holy Orthodoxy?

All things are possible for God, so I do think that however unlikely, it is possible that the Catholic Church will return to her former doctrines and eliminate her false dogmas from her teaching and return to Christ’s Church. However, God will not force such a thing on the Catholic Church, the Catholic Church would have to be willing to follow Him. I think that perhaps Prayer and Fasting would give them back that desire for God above all things, like hunger temporal power.

What do you think?

 

[Mickey]

What do you think?

Amen. There are times when my confessor gives more prayer and fasting as a pennance for particularly stubborn sins. The Orthodox Church has a beautiful Tradition of fasting. If you add up all the lenten periods including the Great fast, Nativity fast, Dormition, Ss Peter and Paul, Wednesdays, Fridays, and the 12 hour communion fast, etc…
we are fasting more than half the year!

The Roman Catholic Church needs to re-discover the beauty of fasting.

And it is good for my cholesterol problem!

 

[twb1621]

Amen. There are times when my confessor gives more prayer and fasting as a pennance for particularly stubborn sins. The Orthodox Church has a beautiful Tradition of fasting. If you add up all the lenten periods including the Great fast, Nativity fast, Dormition, Ss Peter and Paul, Wednesdays, Fridays, and the 12 hour communion fast, etc…
we are fasting more than half the year!

The Roman Catholic Church needs to re-discover the beauty of fasting.

And it is good for my cholesterol problem!

all I can say is when (and I know it will happen) we reunit, I will have no difficulty with it regardless of which side agrees to what. I deal with this with no judgment against either “faction” only praying for resolution. I trust in God’s will and as long as you feel the same way we can pray together on that. Its a rough road to heaven but well worth the pot holes. Oh, and I have cholesterol problems too so don’t think I wouldn’t keep up with you in the fasting department.

 

[twb1621]

My “faction” stayed true the apostolic Traditions, the Sacred Scripture, and the teachings of the holy Fathers. Your Pope decided to go his own way and separate from the other four Patriarchates and to begin a series of doctrinal innovations leading her down the slippery slope of heterodoxy. I know that this is not pleasant for you to hear–but it is truth.

The one separated from the four.

You may believe what you wish.

I think you can make a case for apostolic succession, but Rome needs to return to the Holy Orthodox Catholic Church so that she can once again take her place amongst the other Patriarchates.
Until the veil is lifted from your eyes, there is not much I will be able to say to help you identify the errors of Rome.

God bless you on your pilgrimage to eternity.

What are the times that your Church teaches the seperation occurred? I know what I have read elsewhere but I am interested in knowing your backgrouond to better understand your position.As far as I can see in the research I have done which doesn’t include much regarding the OC, the doctrines and principals of the Church Fathers are still honored.

 

[StMarina303ad]

Amen. There are times when my confessor gives more prayer and fasting as a pennance for particularly stubborn sins. The Orthodox Church has a beautiful Tradition of fasting. If you add up all the lenten periods including the Great fast, Nativity fast, Dormition, Ss Peter and Paul, Wednesdays, Fridays, and the 12 hour communion fast, etc…
we are fasting more than half the year!

The Roman Catholic Church needs to re-discover the beauty of fasting.

And it is good for my cholesterol problem!

You are right, I have a married friend (I’m still single) who converted a few years back with her husband…and because Fasting for married couples includes abstinence, she counted up those days, and depending on the year, it is generally either just under for just over 50% of the year.

She said that was one of the most difficult things for them to adjust to when becoming Orthodox. Helping their marriage though because they were forced to learn how to be intimate without being intimate so to speak.

The couple previously were Baptists that practiced NFP, so the were a little familiar with abstinence. They said once their spiritual father let them know about the fasting and she did the math, she said that’s when it dawned on her why many Orthodox Christian couples don’t have many children.

Your cholesteral problem *and my gluttony problem * I find that Step 14 of the Ladder of Divine Ascent by St. John and the Philokalia really help in addition to the Fasts with my problem. With our spiritual fathers and the wealth of the Orthodox Tradition and the Saints we can conquer problem!

 

[twb1621]

Thank you Mickey, I know now that Apostolic Succession and the Chair of Peter can not be abandoned and if that is what I feel in my heart, I am sure our Lord kept His word. God Bless and guide us both in our direction.

 

[StMarina303ad]

Thank you Mickey, I know now that Apostolic Succession and the Chair of Peter can not be abandoned and if that is what I feel in my heart, I am sure our Lord kept His word. God Bless and guide us both in our direction.

If you want Apostolic Tradition and the Chair (See) of St. Peter, you ought to join the Antiochian Orthodox Church, where you’ll maintain both and have the Faith entire and unaltered within Orthodoxy.