E
Eklecktika
Guest
Perhaps someone has beaten me to pointing this out:
Purgatory-they had it, the statements regarding it are laid out in the Old and New Testament, Tradition, and ECF-the earliest notation regarding it I have found is that Tryphaena in AD 160-
The Immaculate Conception was well known enough and often referred to by the ECF.
A few quotes:
Vestments information-already provided.
Mandatory celibacy-that is a discipline, not a teaching. Similar to the covering of the head. Protestant ministers who are married may be deacons, and I believe, under certain circumstances, priests.
Infallibility was around as well. That was given by Christ when He stated the Gates of Hell would not prevail. For the Church to err in teachings of faith and morals would be for the gates of Hell to prevail. Is the Pope infallible when asked if the Dodgers are superiors to the White Sox? No.
Rosary and scapulars, again, not teachings. Traditions (it would be a small ‘t’ if it were not the first word in the sentence). Disciplines. Not required.
As regards withholding the cup from the laity, I’m afraid I don’t know what you mean.
(OK, back to reading the rest of the thread.) :tiphat:
Eucharistic Adoration-not a teaching, a practice. Big difference.Objectively speaking here are some things the early church did NOT have:
Eucharistic Adoration, purgatory, indulgences, the Immaculate Conception, co-redemptrix language, vestments, mandatory celibacy, the language of infallibility, withholding the cup from the laity, the rosary, scapulars, etc.
Purgatory-they had it, the statements regarding it are laid out in the Old and New Testament, Tradition, and ECF-the earliest notation regarding it I have found is that Tryphaena in AD 160-
Indulgences were around as well. Augustine taught that as the souls of the departed were not separated from the Church, therefore, prayers for them would benefit.“And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again receives her. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: Mother, thou shaft have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the just.”"
The Immaculate Conception was well known enough and often referred to by the ECF.
A few quotes:
“He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption.” Hippolytus, Orations Inillud, Dominus pascit me (ante A.D. 235).
“This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one.” Origen, Homily 1(A.D. 244).
“Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary.” Ephraim, Hymns on the Nativity, 15:23 (A.D. 370).
“Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother.” Ephraem, Nisibene Hymns, 27:8 (A.D. 370).
“O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the Ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides.” Athanasius, Homily of the Papyrus of Turin, 71:216 (ante AD 373).
“Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin.” Ambrose, Sermon 22:30 (A.D. 388).
“We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin.” Augustine, Nature and Grace,4 2[36] (A.D.415).
“As he formed her without my stain of her own, so He proceeded from her contracting no stain.” Proclus of Constantinople, Homily 1 (ante A.D. 446).
“A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns.” Theodotus of Ancrya, Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446).
I cut it off at 500 AD. I have many more, if you are interested.“The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made.” Peter Chrysologus, Sermon 140 (A.D. 449).
Vestments information-already provided.
Mandatory celibacy-that is a discipline, not a teaching. Similar to the covering of the head. Protestant ministers who are married may be deacons, and I believe, under certain circumstances, priests.
Infallibility was around as well. That was given by Christ when He stated the Gates of Hell would not prevail. For the Church to err in teachings of faith and morals would be for the gates of Hell to prevail. Is the Pope infallible when asked if the Dodgers are superiors to the White Sox? No.
Rosary and scapulars, again, not teachings. Traditions (it would be a small ‘t’ if it were not the first word in the sentence). Disciplines. Not required.
As regards withholding the cup from the laity, I’m afraid I don’t know what you mean.
(OK, back to reading the rest of the thread.) :tiphat:
