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gurneyhalleck1
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Anna_Scott
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I have a lot of respect for EO; but I also find it a bit intimidating, especially the mystical leanings. I want to visit them, also. Still can’t believe I lived in Greece and never visited the Greek Orthodox Church–big regret.
Keep me posted on your progress.
Anna
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Anna_Scott
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Actually, that was the most helpful thing he has said to me so far.Yeah, learning to spell peal is a life-changing event! Spelling epiphany!
Anna
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Anna_Scott
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No problem Crazzeto.
I do understand what you are saying; and I acknowledge the role of tradition, which is one common element in considering Anglicanism, Catholicism, and Easter Orthodox.
Anna
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gurneyhalleck1
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One really impressive thing about Orthodoxy is how they have been able to NOT let their traditions snowball but preserve the Early Church polity, liturgies, rituals, and praxis while not having heresies post 1054 plague them like the West have enountered. They’ve had a bit of a “less is more” with defining everything under the sun and I think it has worked.
It seems that geography and ethnicity has played such a HUGE role in all of this. Orthodoxy hasn’t taken off here in the States as much as Catholicism because it didn’t have the ethnic chain of events to bring it here. Think how the Pope had Spain and Ireland and Poland and Portugal, Mexico, all these countries under his wing and look at my state of California. Our area is flooded with Mexican immigrants, Portuguese dairymen from the Azores, Italian immigrants, Polish, Irish, etc. As a result, the big parish here has 7,000 families or so. But what does the Coptic parish have here? 100 people tops? The Anglicans, 300 tops? Catholicism has benefited from huge numbers of ethnic groups that came to the States from the Irish in the potato famine, the Mexican illegal immigrants of the last 50 years (especially the last 20), Portuguese, you name it. But there are not a lot of Greeks, Turks, and other Russians out here so Orthodoxy is not patronized as much. I sometimes ask myself if Roman Catholicism is the true Church because of Matthew 16:18 and for the reason it claims or because it has huge numbers on its side historically through ethnicity? Think of the huge influence of Orthodoxy in the former Soviet territories that took up so much land, Greece, Turkey, the Middle East, etc.! But in our world here in the States that seems pretty distant and out of sight, out of mind. I often ponder how much historical circumstances like communism, barbarians, the seperation of Rome into two parts, guys like Charlemagne, Islam, wars, immigration, etc. has affected religion and the world we live in and how it impacts our choices.
It seems that geography and ethnicity has played such a HUGE role in all of this. Orthodoxy hasn’t taken off here in the States as much as Catholicism because it didn’t have the ethnic chain of events to bring it here. Think how the Pope had Spain and Ireland and Poland and Portugal, Mexico, all these countries under his wing and look at my state of California. Our area is flooded with Mexican immigrants, Portuguese dairymen from the Azores, Italian immigrants, Polish, Irish, etc. As a result, the big parish here has 7,000 families or so. But what does the Coptic parish have here? 100 people tops? The Anglicans, 300 tops? Catholicism has benefited from huge numbers of ethnic groups that came to the States from the Irish in the potato famine, the Mexican illegal immigrants of the last 50 years (especially the last 20), Portuguese, you name it. But there are not a lot of Greeks, Turks, and other Russians out here so Orthodoxy is not patronized as much. I sometimes ask myself if Roman Catholicism is the true Church because of Matthew 16:18 and for the reason it claims or because it has huge numbers on its side historically through ethnicity? Think of the huge influence of Orthodoxy in the former Soviet territories that took up so much land, Greece, Turkey, the Middle East, etc.! But in our world here in the States that seems pretty distant and out of sight, out of mind. I often ponder how much historical circumstances like communism, barbarians, the seperation of Rome into two parts, guys like Charlemagne, Islam, wars, immigration, etc. has affected religion and the world we live in and how it impacts our choices.
No problem Crazzeto.
I do understand what you are saying; and I acknowledge the role of tradition, which is one common element in considering Anglicanism, Catholicism, and Easter Orthodox.
Anna
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Anna_Scott
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Gurney,
Now you are sounding like a philosopher, and Philosophy is something I did study in Greece.
Anna
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gurneyhalleck1
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I studied at Plato’s Academy extensively LOL…
I’m envious of your travels to Greece. That country fascinates me history-wise. As a sixth grade teacher I continually teach Ancient Greece IN DEPTH and then Ancient Rome IN DEPTH and I have made the kids 2 and 300 slide Power Points full of information and tons and tons of pictures. They get REALLY JAZZED UP when I teach history every day. We really get into it.
When my wife is finally an RN my big goals are to travel to Greece, Egypt, and Turkey. That and seeing the Giants win a World Series and I can finally die with dignity LOL!!! For now I can just settle for seeing Oprah and Larry King retire. That’s a short term boon LOL!!
I’m envious of your travels to Greece. That country fascinates me history-wise. As a sixth grade teacher I continually teach Ancient Greece IN DEPTH and then Ancient Rome IN DEPTH and I have made the kids 2 and 300 slide Power Points full of information and tons and tons of pictures. They get REALLY JAZZED UP when I teach history every day. We really get into it.
When my wife is finally an RN my big goals are to travel to Greece, Egypt, and Turkey. That and seeing the Giants win a World Series and I can finally die with dignity LOL!!! For now I can just settle for seeing Oprah and Larry King retire. That’s a short term boon LOL!!
Gurney,
Now you are sounding like a philosopher, and Philosophy is something I did study in Greece.
Anna
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Anna_Scott
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gurney,I studied at Plato’s Academy extensively LOL…
I’m envious of your travels to Greece. That country fascinates me history-wise. As a sixth grade teacher I continually teach Ancient Greece IN DEPTH and then Ancient Rome IN DEPTH and I have made the kids 2 and 300 slide Power Points full of information and tons and tons of pictures. They get REALLY JAZZED UP when I teach history every day. We really get into it.
When my wife is finally an RN my big goals are to travel to Greece, Egypt, and Turkey. That and seeing the Giants win a World Series and I can finally die with dignity LOL!!! For now I can just settle for seeing Oprah and Larry King retire. That’s a short term boon LOL!!
Seeing Oprah and Larry King retire is an excellent short term goal.
Glad you are helping kids explore history–so very important.
I’ll get back on topic next post. My apologies to the OP.
Anna
Goodnight all. :sad_bye:
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Javl
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Originally posted by guerneyhalleck1:
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
Don’t hold your breath on that one. I think the Cubs have a better chance :yawn:. As far as Oprah and Larry, they can’t quit soon enough for me!
PAX DOMINI
Shalom Aleichem
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ron77nyc
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Everyone not in submission to the pope was excluded from salvation. How is this not Feeneyism?
• “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is** absolutely necessary for the salvation **of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.” (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
• “The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, **no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church.” **(Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 – 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.’” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum )
Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 – 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter )
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1holycatholic
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ron77nyc
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The “Spirit of Catholicism” has changed. If Father Feeney had lived and preached anywhere from 1200-1800 he would have been commended for his good work.
**Compare this: **
Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.’” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)
To this:
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp
(Karl Adam, The Spirit of Catholicism, 179). Those who do not know the Church, even those who fight against it, can receive these gifts if they honestly seek God and his truth. But, Adam says, “though it be not the Catholic Church itself that hands them the bread of truth and grace, yet it is Catholic bread that they eat.” And when they eat of it, “without knowing it or willing it” they are “incorporated in the supernatural substance of the Church.”
**Compare this: **
Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.’” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)
To this:
catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0512fea3.asp
(Karl Adam, The Spirit of Catholicism, 179). Those who do not know the Church, even those who fight against it, can receive these gifts if they honestly seek God and his truth. But, Adam says, “though it be not the Catholic Church itself that hands them the bread of truth and grace, yet it is Catholic bread that they eat.” And when they eat of it, “without knowing it or willing it” they are “incorporated in the supernatural substance of the Church.”
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crazzeto
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It’s more of a 3 legged stool however, as you can see with Anglicanism with out all 3 legs of the stool, you can’t sit.No problem Crazzeto.
I do understand what you are saying; and I acknowledge the role of tradition, which is one common element in considering Anglicanism, Catholicism, and Easter Orthodox.
Anna
Scripture +
Tradition +
Teaching Authority
Lumen Gentium addresses leg #3 as I have listed them, that you can’t ignore this aspect. Truely, you need all 3 legs or things can go crazy.
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Bluegoat
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I went to Divine Liturgy a few weeks ago, and I was surprised how non-ethnic and un-weird it was. It was an OCA parish, and a few prayers were in Russian, but the rest didn’t seem ethnic so much as old. It was a parish with lot of converts, which I’m sure made a difference - the priest had been an Anglican priest.
Talking to the people, one thing that has really struck me compared to Catholicism is how intimately the priest was involved in the parishioners lives. They all had close supervision of their prayer and religious life, confession isn’t anonymous and involves a lot of discussion, the “rules” are very much tailored to a persons situation and abilities.
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Bluegoat
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Anglicans say “Scripture, Tradition, Reason”.
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crazzeto
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I guess there’s no way to gentially pack my thoughts… Where has that gotten them?
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Sorry, I’m certainly not trying to sound rude… =( Perhaps I’m still a little worked up over certain recent news headlines
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Bluegoat
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Well, I don’t think “teaching authority” has done much better, so there you go.I guess there’s no way to gentially pack my thoughts… Where has that gotten them?
Edit
Sorry, I’m certainly not trying to sound rude… =( Perhaps I’m still a little worked up over certain recent news headlines
Are you
about that thing with the dog? I’m mad about it too.
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crazzeto
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More certain other ones, but I don’t wish to derail this discussion.Well, I don’t think “teaching authority” has done much better, so there you go.
Are you
Regarding your comments about the “teaching authority not doing much better”, I would argue said authority has yet to fail. That doesn’t mean we’re not dealing with certain heretics and some massive sin in the Church at large. But the church authority is actually fighting, with genuine authority, these errors in the Church at large.
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Ferde_Rombola
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Thanks for the advice. Do you deny VII fudged the infallibly declared dogma that there is no salvation outside the church? I’m not saying they contradicted it, and didn’t say that in any previous message. I’m saying VII blurred the clear language of the declared dogma.
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