The Early Church: If They Weren't Catholic, What Were They?

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gurneyhalleck1 said:
I’m not sure you want most Episcopal refugees to come to your parish. Look at ACNA. It’s really just The Episcopal Church 2.0 without gays and abortion. The liberal values and pridefulness is there in spades, W.O., divorce and remarriage, disfunction between bishops, incoherence, evangelical vs. catholic, all the joys of TEC…:rolleyes: Episcopal refugees, unless it’s from Mark Lawrence Land, for the most part will only serve to liberalize (new verb? :p) your parish. Be careful whatcha wish for! 😛
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We’ll whip 'em into line.

GKC
 
inkaneer said:
Well I was not familiar with the term sub conditione so I googled it and found only one reference to it and that on an “Old Catholic” website. It was defined thusly:

“*Sub Conditione *consecration is a procedure in which two already consecrated bishops consecrate each other, thereby sharing their apostolic lines. In that way, each of their churches recognizes without question the apostolic succession of the other. This has been used, for example, to remove doubts about the validity of Anglican and Episcopalian successions by adding the universally recognized Old Catholic line.”

That last sentence I question as to its veracity as I don’t think a heretical bishop’s ordinations would be recognized by the Catholic Church. The four bishops consecrated by Bishop Le Lefebvre in 1988 were excommunicated immediately upon their ordination. That excommunication was lifted in 2008 only after the four bishops wrote to the pope and promised:

“…we are always firmly determined in the will to remain Catholic and to put all of our energy to the service of the Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ, which is the Roman Catholic Church. We accept Her teachings with filial spirit. We firmly believe in the Primacy of Peter and his prerogatives, and because of that we suffer greatly by the current situation.”

This was for a schismatic faction not a heretical one as the Old Catholics are.

While doing some rather basic research on this I found that the claims to Apostolic Succession have spread to Baptists in the form of the CAC (Celtic Anabaptist Communion). This one is almost laughable as the minister claims that distance is no problem to the laying on of hands. And here all along I thought you had to be within arms length.
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Sub conditione is, with respect to Catholicity, as I described it. It is a conditional application of the sacrament, if it has not already been done. Whatever you found is something else. I don’t normally recommend wiki as a source, but if you look up Graham Leonard, you will find reference to his ordination as conditional. In Latin, this is sub conditione. As I stated. The phrase is not uncommon in this subject matter. The opposite of a conditional ordination is an absolute ordination.

OTOH, yes. The RCC recognizes the validity of sacraments, including consecration, as confected by schismatic, heretical, simonistic or excommunicated bishops. See, if I haven’t mentioned it before, Ott, FUNDAMENTALS OF CATHOLIC DOGMA, p. 458. Such sacraments are valid but illicit.

GKC
 
GKC said:
OTOH, yes. The RCC recognizes the validity of sacraments, including consecration, as confected by schismatic, heretical, simonistic or excommunicated bishops. See, if I haven’t mentioned it before, Ott, FUNDAMENTALS OF CATHOLIC DOGMA, p. 458. Such sacraments are valid but illicit.
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Unless they’re invalid. :coffeeread:
 
The word “Catholic” means Universal. It is a Latin word. It was used to let everyone know, including Jews, that all men were to know that the Catholic Church was for for them. The Catholic Church is all inclusive. The first Cathlics were Jews.

In Matthew 16: v 16 -20, Jesus told St. Peter that he was the rock and on this rock I will build my church. He didn’t say CHURCHES - He said Church , singular. Peter spent time in Rome thus we have the Roman rite of the Catholic Church or the Roman Catholic Church. Peter was one of the main leaders of the Early Church so yes the Early Fathers were Catholic.

All Christians were Catholic until the revolt and Protests by Martin Luther in the country of Germany 15 centuries after Peter died. That is why followers of Luther were called Protest ants. They protested against the Pope. 🙂
 
To tell you the truth guys, I’m exhausted. I need to spend time in Holy Scripture, prayer and meditation. I need to replenish, before I give up on organized religion altogether. After awhile, all the intellectual debates seem empty and void.
 
Anna_Scott said:
To tell you the truth guys, I’m exhausted. I need to spend time in Holy Scripture, prayer and meditation. I need to replenish, before I give up on organized religion altogether. After awhile, all the intellectual debates seem empty and void.
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Tiring, too.

Good luck.

GKC
 
Ignatias20 said:
The word “Catholic” means Universal. It is a Latin word. It was used to let everyone know, including Jews, that all men were to know that the Catholic Church was for for them. The Catholic Church is all inclusive. The first Cathlics were Jews.

In Matthew 16: v 16 -20, Jesus told St. Peter that he was the rock and on this rock I will build my church. He didn’t say CHURCHES - He said Church , singular. Peter spent time in Rome thus we have the Roman rite of the Catholic Church or the Roman Catholic Church. Peter was one of the main leaders of the Early Church so yes the Early Fathers were Catholic.

All Christians were Catholic until the revolt and Protests by Martin Luther in the country of Germany 15 centuries after Peter died. That is why followers of Luther were called Protest ants. They protested against the Pope. 🙂
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Ignatias20,

If it were only that simple. . . . .

Welcome to the forums!
 
GKC said:
Me too. What does it say on p. 458. Para beginning “Every validly consecrated bishop…”?
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A validly consecrated (licitly or illicitly) bishop can’t validly celebrate any Sacrament without proper matter, form and intent.

An invalid Sacrament is no Sacrament at all.
 
Welcome, Ignatius20…

Your take is mine on the Catholic Church…I see it in context of the Holy Spirit and all humanity.
 
Anna,

God Bless You!!! Don’t give up on organized religion…

Keeping you in prayer…

Have peace!
Kathleen
 
1holycatholic said:
A validly consecrated (licitly or illicitly) bishop can’t validly celebrate any Sacrament without proper matter, form and intent.

An invalid Sacrament is no Sacrament at all.
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Agreed. But since it was the schismatic (heretical, etc) part I was speaking of, I took the matter, form and intent as given. That’s true of any sacrament, at all; invalid matter, form , intent invalidates the sacrament. But the question was, was an heretical (etc) bishop a valid minister? Yes.

GKC.
 
Let me tell you , the early church was NOT Roman it wwas Jewish, After all Christ came after his people the jews. He gave Peter the keys to the kingdom and sent him to the Gentiles. There were no Roman Apostles. In fact the Romans were the ones that nailed JESUS to the cross. I know the Jews willed it but the fact remains that the Romans did the act. Jesus was God in the flesh not a second person as the cathoic church would have us to believe. The romans are the ones that killed the Apostles, put them to death, made sport out of them in the arenas as the lions ripped them to shreads. The catholic church invented the trinity doctrine,but the Bible does not support that doctrine. God is one and Jesus is His name. Father, Son, Holy Ghost are just three of the many manfestations of the one God. The catholic church is the most deceiving religion on the whole earth. Think on these things…
 
It’s tough navigating back and forth from nukes to the early church to Anglicans and back to social justice LOL all while trying to maintain those comic books! 😛
GKC said:
Tiring, too.

Good luck.

GKC
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gurneyhalleck1 said:
It’s tough navigating back and forth from nukes to the early church to Anglicans and back to social justice LOL all while trying to maintain those comic books! 😛
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That side talk is still going on, yes. And over on the other board I frequent, I was expounding on the land-based portion of the strategic nuclear triad.

I need to read a good SF book, or something.

GKC
 
Yeah…something good like Dune Messiah! 👍

I remember as a teen reading “Starlog” magazine and “Cinemafantastique” or something like that along with “Fangoria.” Ah, the good ole days! :p:cool:
GKC said:
That side talk is still going on, yes. And over on the other board I frequent, I was expounding on the land-based portion of the strategic nuclear triad.

I need to read a good SF book, or something.

GKC
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gurneyhalleck1 said:
Yeah…something good like Dune Messiah! 👍

I remember as a teen reading “Starlog” magazine and “Cinemafantastique” or something like that along with “Fangoria.” Ah, the good ole days! :p:cool:
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“Starlog”, “Cinefantastique”, and lots of others. I still got a ton of them.

GKC
 
Thought about the posts here…

The last one I read was the 5:30 pm one about the bishop having all 3 requirements but being a heretic.

Isn’t the Anglican bishop a successor to Henry the 8th who was a layman? And that Henry made the king/queen the head of the Church? This not only removes the Holy Father who has the keys to the Blood, but also removes the succession of consecrated clergy in spirit and truth.

I am talking Catholic lay lingo here.

For the Anglican Catholics to split over nationalist issues regarding progeny this is indeed going out into a different orbit.

I know a Catholic deacon and wife who said they finally led that church because in their mind the church was founded on lust…I would say the lack of male heirs. But that is a complete severance of the relationship with the Seat of Peter…and the Anglicans/Episcopalians reject the Holy Father in a different degree than the Orthodox which is based more on regional, historical and minor theological issues.
 
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