The Early Church: If They Weren't Catholic, What Were They?

[1holycatholic]

You failed to put in my (2nd) response to Crazzetto in which I agreed with him, so I’m confused as to why you think I’m contradicting him.

NOTE TO ALL CATHOLICS: Please direct Anna to Church teachings, i.e., stop offering your comments (this particular topic is complicated).

NOTE TO ANNA: Please stop asking Catholics what you yourself can derive from Church teachings.

God bless.

Anna could just get the three volume set of “Faith of the Early Fathers” by Jurgens which is indexed to Church teachings, or she could get the Catechism of the Catholic Church which is indexed to the Early Fathers.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

It’s pretty outrageous that someone is directing “all Catholics” to do anything? Anna has every right to inquire, search, review, and try to comprehend Catholic teachings. She comes on this forum to learn FROM YOU ALL about Catholicism. There’s nothing wrong with that. She’s searching. She has indicated that she could convert so I would think that some posters in here would welcome that, view it as a teachable moment or opportunity, and not direct other Catholics to refer her away, etc. She has the right to hear different takes on things. Why the fear to engage and answer a question? What’s wrong with that? Why direct Anna to reserach herself and for Catholics to stop offering their (name removed by moderator)ut? Is this a fear that Catholics are not as unified and of one mind and one understanding of theology, morality, etc. as they claim to be? Why this attitude? It’s disturbing…

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna,

Key word:non-infallible. It is not an infallible doctrine,so why do you insist that all Catholics must agree and be on the same page? If the pope says he is a pine tree,does that mean we all must submit to his mind and will on the issue?

It is not an infallible doctrine…so why so much fuss over it? Do you agree on everything the President says?

Nicea,

I will take your word that you agree. I must have misunderstood what you two were saying.

All I’m trying to do is understand what is expected of me, if I convert to Catholicism. According to LUMEN GENTIUM, I must submit “mind and will” in a “special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra.”

LUMEN GENTIUM qualifies this by saying, “it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking. . . . .”

I will trust that LUMEN GENTIUM means what it says.

Crazzeto said, “LUMEN GENTIUM must be believed, it is an infallible teaching of Vatican II.”

Lumen Gentium must be beleived, it is an infallible teaching of Vatican II.

Therefore, I know that if I were Catholic, I would have to accept this “submission to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff,” even in non-infallible teachings as described in this document.

That’s it. I’m sorry if I caused any confusion. It was not intentional.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

It’s pretty outrageous that someone is directing “all Catholics” to do anything? Anna has every right to inquire, search, review, and try to comprehend Catholic teachings. She comes on this forum to learn FROM YOU ALL about Catholicism. There’s nothing wrong with that. She’s searching. She has indicated that she could convert so I would think that some posters in here would welcome that, view it as a teachable moment or opportunity, and not direct other Catholics to refer her away, etc. She has the right to hear different takes on things. Why the fear to engage and answer a question? What’s wrong with that? Why direct Anna to reserach herself and for Catholics to stop offering their (name removed by moderator)ut? Is this a fear that Catholics are not as unified and of one mind and one understanding of theology, morality, etc. as they claim to be? Why this attitude? It’s disturbing…

Honesty, gurney,

This is one of the most bizarre discussions I’ve ever had on this forum.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Acknowledged and seconded! I’ve never seen a silencing of people with a ‘let me confer with my clients’ type of thing not allowing Catholics as individuals to speak for themselves and be apologists. I suspect what we have here is precisely what is NOT supposed to happen in Catholic circles, a difference of opinion and interpretation, the very thing Protestants are blasted for so frequently here. Like I said, talk to ten people and they’ll give you ten different views of infallibility. I find it ironic that “infallibility” is so fallibly defined and understood? LOL

Honesty, gurney,

This is one of the most bizarre discussions I’ve ever had on this forum.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I’ve read a lot of the ECF wirings. There’s always more to read.

I’ve read enough of the ECFs to recognize pure unadulterated hooey from some “scholars.”

I do read that type of material, adjunct to the ECF writings.

Anna could just get the three volume set of “Faith of the Early Fathers” by Jurgens which is indexed to Church teachings, or she could get the Catechism of the Catholic Church which is indexed to the Early Fathers.

1holycatholic,

God bless you.

I do want to do as much reading as I can from the historical sources. I appreciate the tip on “Faith of the Early Fathers.” I’m collecting resource suggestions and trying to balance my study.

I have the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is a valuable resource.

I’m also researching Vatican documents; but as you can see, that isn’t working out so well for me.

Thanks so much,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

You failed to put in my (2nd) response to Crazzetto in which I agreed with him, so I’m confused as to why you think I’m contradicting him.

NOTE TO ALL CATHOLICS: Please direct Anna to Church teachings, i.e., stop offering your comments (this particular topic is complicated).

NOTE TO ANNA: Please stop asking Catholics what you yourself can derive from Church teachings.

God bless.

So, no Catholics are going to talk to me now? Is there any good reason for me to stay on the forums???

Anna

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

As I’ve said before, making your journey free of prejudice and studying all sides is the only way to fly. To compliment the Orthodox views from Meyendorff I would actually recommend the VERY well-written Christendom series by Warren Carroll. I have the first few books in the series. It’s very scholarly and the opposite of Meyendorff. It’s completely geared toward a triumphal vision of the papacy and centered on the papal contributions toward fighting heresies. It is enlightening in that it shows how deeply and how actively the popes DID help (sometimes unilaterally) wipe out evil heresies. I enjoyed his book. It has a back-and-forth style like Diarmaid MacCulloch’s style. Good books and very readable! They’re a good source for the Catholic point of view. But keep in mind, these are not theology books but more of a history series. I’d recommend them over the other books recommended in here. I like history rather than apologetics stuff anyday…

I’d also recommend:

The Catholic Religion—by Vernon Staley (wonderful book about Anglicanism, cheap, very readable, and concise)

A History of the Church in England–Moorman (excellent!!)

The Building of Christendom—Carroll

The Cleaving of Christendom–Carroll (the Reformation through Catholic lenses)

The Reformation–Diarmaid MacCulloch (AMAZING book, so scholarly that it’s just phenomenal!!)

Here I Stand, the Life of Martin Luther—Roland Bainton

These are my favorite books from different vantage points that have been highly-readable and fairly-done IMO…I like to hear ALL points of view, not the talking points of one camp. They will advance only their agenda through their lenses with any other testimony or evidence considered prejudicial withheld from court (like my Law and Order talk! dunk-dunk! LOL)

1holycatholic,

God bless you.

I do want to do as much reading as I can from the historical sources. I appreciate the tip on “Faith of the Early Fathers.” I’m collecting resource suggestions and trying to balance my study.

I have the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is a valuable resource.

Thanks so much,
Anna

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Like on the Outer Limits…

DO NOT ATTEMPT TO ADJUST THE PICTURE ON YOUR TV, WE ARE CONTROLLING TRANSMISSION! lol

So, no Catholics are going to talk to me now? Is there any good reason for me to stay on the forums???

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

As I’ve said before, making your journey free of prejudice and studying all sides is the only way to fly. To compliment the Orthodox views from Meyendorff I would actually recommend the VERY well-written Christendom series by Warren Carroll. I have the first few books in the series. It’s very scholarly and the opposite of Meyendorff. It’s completely geared toward a triumphal vision of the papacy and centered on the papal contributions toward fighting heresies. It is enlightening in that it shows how deeply and how actively the popes DID help (sometimes unilaterally) wipe out evil heresies. I enjoyed his book. It has a back-and-forth style like Diarmaid MacCulloch’s style. Good books and very readable! They’re a good source for the Catholic point of view. But keep in mind, these are not theology books but more of a history series. I’d recommend them over the other books recommended in here. I like history rather than apologetics stuff anyday…

I’d also recommend:

The Catholic Religion—by Vernon Staley (wonderful book about Anglicanism, cheap, very readable, and concise)

A History of the Church in England–Moorman (excellent!!)

The Building of Christendom—Carroll

The Cleaving of Christendom–Carroll (the Reformation through Catholic lenses)

The Reformation–Diarmaid MacCulloch (AMAZING book, so scholarly that it’s just phenomenal!!)

Here I Stand, the Life of Martin Luther—Roland Bainton

These are my favorite books from different vantage points that have been highly-readable and fairly-done IMO…I like to hear ALL points of view, not the talking points of one camp. They will advance only their agenda through their lenses with any other testimony or evidence considered prejudicial withheld from court (like my Law and Order talk! dunk-dunk! LOL)

Thanks, gurney.

I’ll add them to my list. I agree that it is important to study different vantage points.

You may be the only one who is still talking to me.

Anna

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Anna,

Clean out your IM box. I tried to send you a message and it says your IM box is 100% FULL and unable to receive messages now

S

Thanks, gurney.

I’ll add them to my list. I agree that it is important to study different vantage points.

You may be the only one who is still talking to me.

Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna,

Clean out your IM box. I tried to send you a message and it says your IM box is 100% FULL and unable to receive messages now

S

Done.

Anna

 

[josie_L]

Anna could just get the three volume set of “Faith of the Early Fathers” by Jurgens which is indexed to Church teachings, or she could get the Catechism of the Catholic Church which is indexed to the Early Fathers.

Yes, that would be a good idea!!!

 

[josie_L]

So, no Catholics are going to talk to me now? Is there any good reason for me to stay on the forums???

Anna

That’s not what I meant Anna, and I think you know that, i.e., we’ve already told you that the best way to understand Church teaching is to go directly to its source. It’s ok to ask Catholics about the faith but when they in turn don’t know everything there is to know about Catholicism (it’s a 2000 year old faith) then its time to rely on Catholic documents and the canons of the Church.

p.s. I’m still learning about Catholicism and I’m a cradle Catholic.

 

[crazzeto]

It’s pretty outrageous that someone is directing “all Catholics” to do anything? Anna has every right to inquire, search, review, and try to comprehend Catholic teachings. She comes on this forum to learn FROM YOU ALL about Catholicism. There’s nothing wrong with that. She’s searching. She has indicated that she could convert so I would think that some posters in here would welcome that, view it as a teachable moment or opportunity, and not direct other Catholics to refer her away, etc. She has the right to hear different takes on things. Why the fear to engage and answer a question? What’s wrong with that? Why direct Anna to reserach herself and for Catholics to stop offering their (name removed by moderator)ut? Is this a fear that Catholics are not as unified and of one mind and one understanding of theology, morality, etc. as they claim to be? Why this attitude? It’s disturbing…

I’m in agreement, the attitude that some are displaying here is uncalled for and quite disheartening!

 

[GKC]

As I’ve said before, making your journey free of prejudice and studying all sides is the only way to fly. To compliment the Orthodox views from Meyendorff I would actually recommend the VERY well-written Christendom series by Warren Carroll. I have the first few books in the series. It’s very scholarly and the opposite of Meyendorff. It’s completely geared toward a triumphal vision of the papacy and centered on the papal contributions toward fighting heresies. It is enlightening in that it shows how deeply and how actively the popes DID help (sometimes unilaterally) wipe out evil heresies. I enjoyed his book. It has a back-and-forth style like Diarmaid MacCulloch’s style. Good books and very readable! They’re a good source for the Catholic point of view. But keep in mind, these are not theology books but more of a history series. I’d recommend them over the other books recommended in here. I like history rather than apologetics stuff anyday…

I’d also recommend:

The Catholic Religion—by Vernon Staley (wonderful book about Anglicanism, cheap, very readable, and concise)

A History of the Church in England–Moorman (excellent!!)

The Building of Christendom—Carroll

The Cleaving of Christendom–Carroll (the Reformation through Catholic lenses)

The Reformation–Diarmaid MacCulloch (AMAZING book, so scholarly that it’s just phenomenal!!)

Here I Stand, the Life of Martin Luther—Roland Bainton

These are my favorite books from different vantage points that have been highly-readable and fairly-done IMO…I like to hear ALL points of view, not the talking points of one camp. They will advance only their agenda through their lenses with any other testimony or evidence considered prejudicial withheld from court (like my Law and Order talk! dunk-dunk! LOL)

You and I are alike, in our reading preferences. Read around a subject, from all sides.

To Bainton I’d add Marius’ MARTIN LUTHER: THE CHRISTIAN BETWEEN GOD AND DEATH.

GKC

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Thanks, gurney.

I’ll add them to my list. I agree that it is important to study different vantage points.

You may be the only one who is still talking to me.

Anna

I’ll still talk to you.

Remember that the Truth of the Catholic Church is not in any way confirmed or negated by individual Catholics.

I believe that the Catholic Church is true. I also believe that many Catholics are annoying, stupid, ignorant, and/or Obama voters.

 

[josie_L]

This is one of the most bizarre discussions I’ve ever had on this forum.

Well, Anna when you say things like “I suppose it’s not so complicated. One must submit mind and will to the Pontiff,” it does get rather bizarre.

 

[Anna_Scott]

I’ll still talk to you.

Remember that the Truth of the Catholic Church is not in any way confirmed or negated by individual Catholics.

I believe that the Catholic Church is true. I also believe that many Catholics are annoying, stupid, ignorant, and/or Obama voters.

CHESTERTONRULES,

Glad to know you’ll talk to me. shaw:

I do understand that the Truth of the Catholic Church is not confirmed or negated by individual Catholics. This thread did help drive that home.

Thanks so much,
Anna

 

[Anna_Scott]

Well, Anna when you say things like “I suppose it’s not so complicated. One must submit mind and will to the Pontiff,” it does get rather bizarre.

josie L,

I’ll restate to clear up any confusion about my statement.

I suppose it’s not so complicated. “. . . .Religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff. . . . .”

Anna