The Early Church: If They Weren't Catholic, What Were They?

[GKC]

I usually go according to the Magisterium which is reflected in the Catechism of the Catholic Church and An Adult Catholic Catechism ( by the German Bishops, with Cardinal Ratzinger ). There are other sources, but I deem these two the most authoritive.

Also I agree to a point with you as far as the Baptists go. I should have qualified my statement by say “not all Baptist Churches”. Mea culpa, my apologies.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Heck, I’m winging it, sometimes, myself.

GKC

 

[Anna_Scott]

I’m a former Baptist myself.

Most in the SBC would not recognize anything but “Believer’s baptism”, by immersion.

GKC

Then you know my pain. I’ve been working on shaking a life time of indoctrination. It runs deeper than I realized.

Anna

 

[Javl]

Yeah, but…the number of my hobby areas is huge.

Of course, the writings of John Dickson Carr, or the subject of old time radio shows rarely come up on boards like this, but still…

GKC

I’m not much on Carr, but how’s about “Fibber McGee and Molly” and “The Great Gildersleeve”? Two of my favorites.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

Then you know my pain. I’ve been working on shaking a life time of indoctrination. It runs deeper than I realized.

Anna

I understand and sympathize with you, Anna. But what would it have been like if you were a cultic???

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[GKC]

Then you know my pain. I’ve been working on shaking a life time of indoctrination. It runs deeper than I realized.

Anna

I’m sorry to hear that. I shook it, early on, perhaps because, as I usually told my father, I found I had a stained glass soul (in a Gothic arch). Chesterton, Lewis and company won me over in high school. It hurt the family, a little. One of my sorrows was that I never got to discuss the subject with my father, who died young. He was a long time Baptist adult SS teacher. And a book person. It would have been fun.

GKC

 

[Anna_Scott]

I understand and sympathize with you, Anna. But what would it have been like if you were a cultic???

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

What do you mean?

 

[GKC]

I’m not much on Carr, but how’s about “Fibber McGee and Molly” and “The Great Gildersleeve”? Two of my favorites.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

My radio show collection, started in the early 60s, runs to multi thousands in many formats, vinyl, cassette, cd and (hurrah) mp3. My Fibber McGee is pretty heavy, from late 30s through early 50s, and I enjoy them all.

The Great Gildersleeve, spin-off from Fibber and Molly, ditto. And Hal Peary, the first Gildersleeve, is the only old time radio star I actually met in person, in 1973.

My favorite comedy series is Vic and Sade. Surreal. My wife only listens to Gunsmoke. We warn Matt of the dangers.

Currently, I’m listening to 178 (I think) episodes of Speed Gibson of the International Secret Police, with one lead character (at least in the early shows) being Howard McNair, Doc, from the radio Gunsmoke, Floyd from the Andy Griffith show.

That was fun.

GKC

 

[Javl]

I’m sorry to hear that. I shook it, early on, perhaps because, as I usually told my father, I found I had a stained glass soul (in a Gothic arch). Chesterton, Lewis and company won me over in high school. It hurt the family, a little. One of my sorrows was that I never got to discuss the subject with my father, who died young. He was a long time Baptist adult SS teacher. And a book person. It would have been fun.

GKC

Yes, it would have been fun. I had my Dad until he was ninety and many were the interesting and fun discussions and arguements we had on just about every subject. Believe me when I say that you have my deepest sympathy for your loss.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[GKC]

Yes, it would have been fun. I had my Dad until he was ninety and many were the interesting and fun discussions and arguements we had on just about every subject. Believe me when I say that you have my deepest sympathy for your loss.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Thank you. He has been gone 34 years now. The void is still here with me, though. He was always curious about other aspects of Christianity, used to drop by the local RC church, for a look-see, and my first copy of the St. Joseph Missal and my Douay-Confraternity Bible, were from his library. As was the first copy of the 1928 Book of Common Prayer I ever read.

GKC

 

[Javl]

What do you mean?

I mean if you were a Mormon or Jehovahs Witness, etc. Very few of those who leave these cults become true Christians. Many reject God altogether.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

My radio show collection, started in the early 60s, runs to multi thousands in many formats, vinyl, cassette, cd and (hurrah) mp3. My Fibber McGee is pretty heavy, from late 30s through early 50s, and I enjoy them all.

The Great Gildersleeve, spin-off from Fibber and Molly, ditto. And Hal Peary, the first Gildersleeve, is the only old time radio star I actually met in person, in 1973.

My favorite comedy series is Vic and Sade. Surreal. My wife only listens to Gunsmoke. We warn Matt of the dangers.

Currently, I’m listening to 187 episodes of Speed Gibson of the International Secret Police, with one lead character (at least in the early shows) being Howard McNair, Doc, from the radio Gunsmoke, Floyd from the Andy Griffith show.

That was fun.

GKC

Holy Cow ! I can’t even come anywhere near you with that collection. I just have F & M, Gildersleeve, Burns & Allen, Laurel and Hardy, and The Lone Ranger. And even with these I don’t have them all.

Truthfully, the only collections I have are on Religion, Electronics, General Science, and Railroading, in that order of preference. And also even with these there is plenty of room for more.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Javl]

OK, we’d better get back on track before we’re tossed.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[GKC]

Holy Cow ! I can’t even come anywhere near you with that collection. I just have F & M, Gildersleeve, Burns & Allen, Laurel and Hardy, and The Lone Ranger. And even with these I don’t have them all.

Truthfully, the only collections I have are on Religion, Electronics, General Science, and Railroading, in that order of preference. And also even with these there is plenty of room for more.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I’ve been at this a long time.

But you, at least, are a book person. That’s good.

Haven’t had enough room, for a long time. But, Dv, I’ll start on a library addition ti the house, of around 1000 sq. feet, floor to ceiling bookcases, in a couple of months. Which, with what I already have, might handle half of my books. I’m really looking forward to having so many of them in front of me again. Rather than in boxes in storage,

GKC

 

[GKC]

OK, we’d better get back on track before we’re tossed.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Pfui.

GKC

 

[Javl]

I’ve been at this a long time.

But you, at least, are a book person. That’s good.

Haven’t had enough room, for a long time. But, Dv, I’ll start on a library addition ti the house, of around 1000 sq. feet, floor to ceiling bookcases, in a couple of months. Which, with what I already have, might handle half of my books. I’m really looking forward to having so many of them in front of me again. Rather than in boxes in storage,

GKC

I envy you. Wish I could do that in the little box I live in. I’ve always looked at books as a best friend. Always there for you when you need them. They never talk back or even answer you back. And they’re always entertaining and full of knowledge.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[inkaneer]

As I investigate Catholicism, and the claim of authority and valid orders; I realize the CC does not recognize any Sacraments outside the Catholic Church (except for continued Apostolic Succession in EO?? Still questions)—which would mean, according to the CC, Baptism, the Eucharist, etc. in Parishes/Diocese within the Anglican Communion would be considered invalid. An Anglican Baptism is not considered a true and valid Baptism by the CC. The Eucharist in the Anglican Communion is not valid-not really the Body and Blood of Christ. Is that correct?

Anna

Not so. Thge Catholic Church says that the Orthodox have valid sacraments [all seven of them] As for the protestant denominations, to include Anglicans, we recognize that they generally have two valid sacraments, they being Baptism and Marriage. It gets a little tricky with Baptism as some protestant denominations do not use the Trinitarian formula and thus their baptism is not considered valid. These two sacraments, Baptism and Marriage do not require someone with valid orders [ordination] to administer. In marriage the two persons getting married confer the sacrament on each other while Baptism being so necessary for salvation, can be administered by anyone. Everything else rests on valid Apostolic Succession for without that there can not be valid Orders, a valid Liturgy and valid sacraments [the five remaining sacraments].

 

[GKC]

Not so. Thge Catholic Church says that the Orthodox have valid sacraments [all seven of them] As for the protestant denominations, to include Anglicans, we recognize that they generally have two valid sacraments, they being Baptism and Marriage. It gets a little tricky with Baptism as some protestant denominations do not use the Trinitarian formula and thus their baptism is not considered valid. These two sacraments, Baptism and Marriage do not require someone with valid orders [ordination] to administer. In marriage the two persons getting married confer the sacrament on each other while Baptism being so necessary for salvation, can be administered by anyone. Everything else rests on valid Apostolic Succession for without that there can not be valid Orders, a valid Liturgy and valid sacraments [the five remaining sacraments].

Yep. What I said.

GKC

 

[SpectatorX]

No kidding? What a coincidence. Might that be the same Gilbert Keith Chesterton that I’ve been collecting since 1965? Of whom (with some few exceptions related to 2-3 of the Ignatius Press collections of his Illustrated London News columns) I own every book published as under his name, including the posthumous collections edited by his secretary, Dorothy Collins? Making a total of (I haven’t counted in a long time) around 100+ books? And about whom my book collection of titles on him runs somewhere around 65-70 titles, including the first book (first English edition; used to be 2 copies, but I gave one away to a RC SF writer friend of mine) published on him, anonymously, written by his brother Cecil? Of whom I own at least one signed work? And tapes of him speaking (easier to get these days than when I started looking)? And possibly that Apostle of Common Sense is hosted sometimes by Dale Ahlquist, long time president of the Chesterton Society. And the man who wrote a book of the same title, which I usually recommend for beginners on Chesterton, it being a little elementary? And would that Chesterton be the same man to whom the Chesterton Review is pretty much dedicated, a subscription to which I had for 20 odd years? And that’s the man, a copy of whose portrait, as taken from the James Gunn painting of Baring, Belloc and Chesterton hangs in my den? And whose quote you gave below comes from a 1924 ILN column? That Chesterton?

You are, clearly, a poster after my own heart…

 

[GKC]

You are, clearly, a poster after my own heart…

Sometimes, someone just opens the door.

GKC

 

[Anna_Scott]

Not so. Thge Catholic Church says that the Orthodox have valid sacraments [all seven of them] As for the protestant denominations, to include Anglicans, we recognize that they generally have two valid sacraments, they being Baptism and Marriage. It gets a little tricky with Baptism as some protestant denominations do not use the Trinitarian formula and thus their baptism is not considered valid. These two sacraments, Baptism and Marriage do not require someone with valid orders [ordination] to administer. In marriage the two persons getting married confer the sacrament on each other while Baptism being so necessary for salvation, can be administered by anyone. Everything else rests on valid Apostolic Succession for without that there can not be valid Orders, a valid Liturgy and valid sacraments [the five remaining sacraments].

So, according to the CC, an Anglican Priest does not have “valid orders” to hear confession, or grant Absolution?

Anna