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edwest2
Guest
This reminds of contract negotiations I’ve been involved in:
“What will it take to get you to sign?”
This only confirms my skepticism as being justified.
God bless,
Ed
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“What will it take to get you to sign?”
This only confirms my skepticism as being justified.
God bless,
Ed
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larkin31
Guest
Don’t be so nervous. I just want to know what “certainty” means for you. Are you an absolutist about it? Benedict marveled at the growing scientific consensus over the size and age of the universe. Do you not share that marvel? Are you more certain of the size and shape of our solar system?
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hugh_miller
Guest
Diamonds are supposedly 0.5 to 3 billion years old. Yet major C-14 dating labs are showing them to be in the range of 55,000 to 80,000 radiocarbon years old.
Do you just suppose that some uninformed scientists are still using obsolete 19th century Darwinian/Lyellian assumptions coupeled with extremely unreliable radio decay methods as the Pontifical Academy of Scientists are doing?
Someone should inform Pope Benedict that he needs to really get a committee together to investigate why his PAS advisory group keep missing the boat and have them reset their watches. There has been a time change
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larkin31
Guest
The Vatican is dating diamonds?Diamonds are supposedly 0.5 to 3 billion years old. Yet major C-14 dating labs are showing them to be in the range of 55,000 to 80,000 radiocarbon years old.
Do you just suppose that some uninformed scientists are still using obsolete 19th century Darwinian/Lyellian assumptions coupeled with extremely unreliable radio decay methods as the Pontifical Academy of Scientists are doing?
Someone should inform Pope Benedict that he needs to really get a committee together to investigate why his PAS advisory group keep missing the boat and have them reset their watches. There has been a time change
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Mr_Skeptic
Guest
Please cite at least one of those labs, and the specific publication. Thanks.
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hugh_miller
Guest
Fr. Jaki is a puzzle to me. He has written a marvelous little book on what happened to Julian the Apostate’s catastrophic attempt to rebuild the Jewish temple before God’s good time. The disasters that happened to the Jews on the very first day that they tried to rebuild the temple was surely miraculous as Dr. Jaki observed and as he showed was historically accurate. Yet he sees no justification for the miraculous stated clearly in Genesis 1-11 including the Flood of Noah. Seems he be on an ego trip where he is a key person in trying to replace the scripture of the old testament with one of his own and that of fellow believers in the Big Bang and descent from a common ancestor.
He died in April of last year so perhaps now he has been better informed that revelation always trumps man’s attempt to tell God how he did it.
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hugh_miller
Guest
SUBJECT: What did St. Augustine really say?
And I’m sure that Ms. Scott and her NCSE welcomes your support of their assumptions on origins. If she has her way there will never be any discussion of the evidence against descent from a common ancestor, cyanobacteria (?) or whatever. Also evidence against those billions and billions of years needed to support that castle build on the sands of time will also never be challenged in public schools nor in Catholic High Schools like where I graduated, based on a meeting I had with the lay principal.
Real freedom of speech in academia is gone. And Ms. Scott and ACLU welcome all fellow travelers in particular the religious ones as she laughs all the way to the proverbial bank.
Very soon we may not even be able to discuss such evidences even on CA. They call it a temporary ban now but I wonder if someday it will be permanent?
Meanwhile I humbly accept what our church fathers wrote including their support for Genesis 1-11 which is the foundation of our faith; this includes the writings of St. Augustine. I will also gladly fight with hard scientific evidences that supports scripture and confounds the hypothesis of descent from a common ancestor.
In his book The Literal Meaning of Genesis, St Augustine writes:
Usually, even a non-Christian knows something about the earth, the heavens, and the other elements of this world. … Now, it is a disgraceful and dangerous thing for an infidel to hear a Christian, presumably giving the meaning of Holy Scripture, talking nonsense on these topics; and we should take all means to prevent such an embarrassing situation, in which people show up vast ignorance and laugh it to scorn. … Reckless and incompetent expounders of Holy Scripture bring untold trouble and sorrow on their wiser brethren when they are caught in one of their mischievous false opinions and are taken to task by those who are not bound by the authority of our sacred books”.
But a defender of the traditional Catholic doctrine of creation can retort that he is not causing an “embarrassing moment,” and that he can prove it by citing Augustine. In discussing the “waters above the firmament,” Augustine acknowledged that science may not have a clear understanding of these waters, but he deferred (as did Aquinas many centuries later) to the authority of Scripture as greater than all human ingenuity. The Scripture said it and he believed it. Hence we can safely say that, for Augustine, the “embarrassing situation” does not necessarily occur when a faithful expositor tries to find scientific support for biblical propositions, but when the biblical skeptic tries to elevate scientific theory into fact, requiring Scripture either to conform to the theory, or to be totally ignorant of the theory. It is misleading in the extreme to quote St. Augustine as if he held the literal sense of Holy Scripture in scorn or was a proto-evolutionist. Nothing could be further from the truth.
I respectfully urge all readers of this thread including itinernat1 and our monitors to purchase ***Fr. Victor Warkulwiz’s book, Genesis 1-11, A Compendium and Defense of Traditional Catholic Theology on Origins ***which will help give everyone a good balance from both scripture and science in support of our faith. He has a Ph.D. in physics and has had much lab and field experience before entering the priesthood. He was named national director of the Apostolate for Perpetual Eucharist Adoration in October 1998. He is advisor to the Kolbe Center for the Study of Creation. I had the privilege of working with him and 40 or so volunteers in the excavation of human and dinosaur fossil footprints together under tons of cretaceous rock together in Texas. He wields a mean shovel and sharp pen as well.
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StAnastasia
Guest
Granny, I’m trying to understand your position. Is having a spiritual soul dependent upon having human DNA? In other words, does everything with human DNA have a human soul?
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StAnastasia
Guest
Ed, that is no more relevant than if the Church had infallibly ruled that the sun revolves around the earth. What the Church has ruled on scientific matters is totally irrelevant.
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StAnastasia
Guest
Hugh, you just made that up!
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grannymh
Guest
Human nature is created by God to be an unique unification of soul and body, rational/corporeal, spirit/matter. Therefore, the human person is different in kind from all others.
Because of the immaterial, eternal, spiritual soul, humans share in the life of their Creator. The* Catechism of the Catholic Church*, paragraph 356 says: “and he alone is called to share, by knowledge and love, in God’s own life. It was for this end that he was created, and this is the fundamental reason for his dignity:” To me, that is amazing and wonderful beyond words.
Blessings,
granny
All human life is created by God.
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Mr_Skeptic
Guest
How’s that research coming along?
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Mr_Skeptic
Guest
Anything yet?
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rossum
Guest
If the 55,000 to 80,000 year old date is correct then we can be sure that the 6,000 year old earth YEC claim is false, those diamonds are too old for the YEC timescale.
If the 55,000 to 80,000 year old date is incorrect then we cannot make any further assumptions, we have a piece of faulty data which should be noted and not used further. We can turn to other correct data to draw our conclusions.
As Mr Skeptic said, a reference would be useful.
rossum
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larkin31
Guest
totally
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grannymh
Guest
To anyone. Please.
Christian asked a very important question which I have never so far seen answered. While his question involved the logic used regarding age, it is a question which should be answered by every scientist or interested party regarding evidence and conclusion.
The important question from a scientific point of view is –
**What is the [correct or incorrect] logical deduction or induction being used to reach the conclusion of any kind of theory or hypothesis? **
Thank you.
Blessings,
granny
The quest for conclusions is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
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StAnastasia
Guest
Granny, you didn’t answer my question.
When you say that “human nature is created by God to be an unique unification of soul and body,” is having a spiritual soul dependent upon having human DNA? In other words, does everything with human DNA have a human soul? And does having a spiritual soul require possessing human DNA?
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rossum
Guest
Covering dating methods in full would take up more space than is available in a single post.
Try Wiens’ Radiometric Dating - A Christian Perspective
and
Dalrymple’s How old is the Earth?
rossum
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grannymh
Guest
StAnastasia,
Could it be that in approaching the unique unification of soul and body, you are viewing human nature as being only in the material and physical realm and none other? Or, is Cartesian extreme dualism causing the problem regarding understanding human nature? Or could it be that focus on the ancient truths of Catholicism has shifted due to the early writings of Matthew Fox? Or is the principle of hylomorphism no longer taught?
Regarding human DNA, you may run into confusion with the research on the major histocompatibility complex in vertebrates. This confusion may be complicated by using the word human as an adjective for soul. Are you using the word soul as the animating principle of living organisms? Since you are using both a human soul and a spiritual soul, there may be difficulty in figuring out what is meant by “everything”.
Since I am unable to answer your questions, I have a humble suggestion:
Consider belief in the teachings of the Catholic Church as found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition, ISBN: 1-57455-109-4 Or use this handy link The table of contents, index, and glossary will be a far better guide than I would be.
Blessings,
granny
The quest for truth is worthy of the adventures of the journey.
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hugh_miller
Guest
BASED ON POPULAR DEMAND >>>> The reference for the dates for diamond is: Use of natural diamonds to lmonitor C-14 AMS instrument backgrounds, R. E. Taylor and John Southon. Nuclear Instruments and Methods in Physics Research B 229 (2007) 282-287.Diamonds are supposedly 0.5 to 3 billion years old. Yet major C-14 dating labs are showing them to be in the range of 55,000 to 80,000 radiocarbon years old.
Do you just suppose that some uninformed scientists are still using obsolete 19th century Darwinian/Lyellian assumptions coupeled with extremely unreliable radio decay methods as the Pontifical Academy of Scientists are doing?
Someone should inform Pope Benedict that he needs to really get a committee together to investigate why his PAS advisory group keep missing the boat and have them reset their watches. There has been a time change
I have the paper. One of the interesting aspect is that : ***“Six fragments cut from a single diamond exhibited essentially identical C-14 value - 69.3 +/- 0.5 ka to 70.7 +/- 0.5 ka BP.” ***
Concordant dates for individual dinosaur bones are obtained also but in a much younger C-14 range of 23 ka to 30 ka which is what one would expect if everything was created “at once” - simul in Latin. That is: diamond contains primordial carbon 12, 13 and 14 all at the time of God’s creation with a gradual build up of more carbon-14 due to photosynthesis via upper atmosphere production of C-14. Conclusion: Even the C-14 dates for dinosasur bones may be too old as C-14 has not reached the equilibirum state as even Dr. Libby noted in the late 1940’s.
For the effect of ultrasonic cavitation on increasing the half life of 10,000 times for Thorium 228 google the name Fabio Cardone.
**Since it has been demonstrated that all living organisms on Earth are genetically related, it is virtually certain that all living organisms have obviously been created AT ONCE by the One and the same Creator by variation in the structure of DNA **
[Simul in Latin means “at once” - From Lateran IV, AD 1215]
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