The Earth - Not Abortion - Should Be Central Catholic Theme!

[trickster]

Well as usual, this posting will increase my fan club…but trust me the posting is a thought in process.

If we as Catholics believe that our central issue should be the preservation of life and that we ought to defend those who cannot defend themselves in the abortion issue; then ought we not to expand that thinking with respect to the earth.

The Catholic position on abortion as the highest ranking issue from which all our other issues (i.e. war, starvation, miscarriage of justice, racism, economic disparity…you know little things like that) must outweigh the 99% for that 1%; my take is a bit different.

First of all, I find the position anthro-centric…as if humanity is the only dynamic that counts in creation and that the human life is somehow more valuable than an eco-system, a tree or a rat! Our western roots as a church views creation as a hierarchial format of resources to be exploited and “serve the dignity of man?”; where many of us see creation as a lateral inter-connected network of existence.

For those of us who take the second view of creation and a perception of reality, the earth is the source of life, there are many endangered species and ecosystems all because of development demand; we have too many people on earth as it is (or do we)? Or do we have too many people on earth who cannot live in community, in more ecologically consistent manners? Did not Pope Paul VI say that we don’t have a food shortage problem on the globe we have a distribution (capitalist) problem…that’s the kind of global views that I am talking about…

I, of course, do not separate humans from creation therefore we need to be pro-life, I am only arguing that we should take that thinking, that feeling and that passion about the unborn child and apply it to the rest of creation in the same fervor. The earth feeds us, shelters us…and yet…we as humans are the virus of the earth that is in the process of destroying her.

If we believe in the dignity of life, then shouldn’t we define that “life” as all of creation? Saints like Francis of Assisi have looked at that eco-theological perspective…so that is why I say the earth and not abortion should be our central theme of life, the dignity of life and the defence of those unable to defend themselves (i.e. ecosystems) cause of the development and life-style choices we mistake for dignity as human beings; this focus point too is more holistic and the defence of the unborn child will come naturally from a reordered priority of the sacred.

Bruce
Trickster (Aboriginal Symbol for Transformation)

 

[Kenny_Kamel]

Our western roots as a church views creation as a hierarchial format of resources to be exploited and "serve the dignity of man?

Man was created to have dominion over all creation.

For those of us who take the second view of creation and a perception of reality, the earth is the source of life, there are many endangered species and ecosystems all because of development demand; we have too many people on earth as it is (or do we)?

I agree there has been too much done in the way of destroying parts of the earth, I gladly support reasonable efforts against ecological destruction. Overpopulation is a myth, one particularly espoused by the same people who press the pro-abortion, pro-contraception, pro-sterlization agenda. They disregard facts like that many countries throughout the world project to have major labor shortages within the next 10-25 years among many other issues due to families not having as many children as in decades past.

Did not Pope Paul VI say that we don’t have a food shortage problem on the globe we have a distribution (capitalist) problem…that’s the kind of global views that I am talking about…

I don’t think its a capitalist problem, for example the U.S. sends tons upon tons of food to places like Africa and North Korea only to have the ruling regimes of those countries hold that food for their militaries and withhold it from the people that truly do need so they can impose their will on said people. America alone produces an abundance of food that could easily feed every mouth around the globe, but distribution is the problem whether it be getting the food there or making sure the people who need it get it.

I, of course, do not separate humans from creation therefore we need to be pro-life, I am only arguing that we should take that thinking, that feeling and that passion about the unborn child and apply it to the rest of creation in the same fervor. The earth feeds us, shelters us…and yet…we as humans are the virus of the earth that is in the process of destroying her.

Likening humankind to a virus is quite the misanthropic statement, I’m go ahead ahead and lump anyone with such sentiments in with those aforementioned overpopulation whackos.

Frankly I defer to Jesus who said that this world will pass away, but his word will not. I’m all for being a good steward of the Earth but not to the exclusion of God’s Will for my life and the lives of all those around me.

 

[grasscutter]

What if one the the babies aborted was the one who could have developed a technology that would greatly help the environment, or solve world hunger, or broker peace in the Middle East, etc.

 

[trickster]

Man was created to have dominion over all creation.

I agree there has been too much done in the way of destroying parts of the earth, I gladly support reasonable efforts against ecological destruction. Overpopulation is a myth, one particularly espoused by the same people who press the pro-abortion, pro-contraception, pro-sterlization agenda. They disregard facts like that many countries throughout the world project to have major labor shortages within the next 10-25 years among many other issues due to families not having as many children as in decades past.

I don’t think its a capitalist problem, for example the U.S. sends tons upon tons of food to places like Africa and North Korea only to have the ruling regimes of those countries hold that food for their militaries and withhold it from the people that truly do need so they can impose their will on said people. America alone produces an abundance of food that could easily feed every mouth around the globe, but distribution is the problem whether it be getting the food there or making sure the people who need it get it.

Likening humankind to a virus is quite the misanthropic statement, I’m go ahead ahead and lump anyone with such sentiments in with those aforementioned overpopulation whackos.

Frankly I defer to Jesus who said that this world will pass away, but his word will not. I’m all for being a good steward of the Earth but not to the exclusion of God’s Will for my life and the lives of all those around me.

Well Kenny, we actually agree on most things! Thanks for those points, never thought about labour shortages, that is a good point. The point of dictators is also very good and I agree with you.

The two points; humanity having dominion over the earth and “virus” statements on my part; let me explain the latter first. In terms of "virus statements’ - well I was on a roll in my writing… BUT like little bugs we are eating up everything in site and yes we are destroying the world…the world will pass away…but so will our lives…should we neglect our lives, our bodies, our health, our minds? Eternal truths that Jesus speaks about are - of course - eternal…

In terms of “dominion over the earth”…what exactly does that mean? The words may be in scripture, but how we understand those words are also culturally defined…and in our church today… we define them in the most western colonial manner we can…HOWEVER…have you read what JP II wrote about with respect to understanding those words…I believe we are in agreement with him in that humanity also has a responsibility to care for the earth…as well…

And when I say that I am not an environmental purist, I believe Canadian oil should be sent down to Texas for refining and distribution…I am also for alternative technologies and long for the day those electric cars, etc., will be accessible to all of us in terms of affordability.

Anyways, look forward to your thoughts

Bruce

 

[healonzo]

What if one the the babies aborted was the one who could have developed a technology that would greatly help the environment, or solve world hunger, or broker peace in the Middle East, etc.

More important is that what if one of the babies aborted is loved by God more than the earth. Wouldn’t the value of the human being be immeasurable? God loves all human life, the poor on the streets are as valuable as the people who are like Mozart who compose masterpieces.

 

[sedonaman]

Well as usual, this posting will increase my fan club…but trust me the posting is a thought in process.

If we as Catholics believe that our central issue should be the preservation of life and that we ought to defend those who cannot defend themselves in the abortion issue; then ought we not to expand that thinking with respect to the earth.

The Catholic position on abortion as the highest ranking issue from which all our other issues (i.e. war, starvation, miscarriage of justice, racism, economic disparity…you know little things like that) must outweigh the 99% for that 1%; my take is a bit different.

First of all, I find the position anthro-centric…as if humanity is the only dynamic that counts in creation and that the human life is somehow more valuable than an eco-system, a tree or a rat! Our western roots as a church views creation as a hierarchial format of resources to be exploited and “serve the dignity of man?”; where many of us see creation as a lateral inter-connected network of existence.

For those of us who take the second view of creation and a perception of reality, the earth is the source of life, there are many endangered species and ecosystems all because of development demand; we have too many people on earth as it is (or do we)? Or do we have too many people on earth who cannot live in community, in more ecologically consistent manners? Did not Pope Paul VI say that we don’t have a food shortage problem on the globe we have a distribution (capitalist) problem…that’s the kind of global views that I am talking about…

I, of course, do not separate humans from creation therefore we need to be pro-life, I am only arguing that we should take that thinking, that feeling and that passion about the unborn child and apply it to the rest of creation in the same fervor. The earth feeds us, shelters us…and yet…we as humans are the virus of the earth that is in the process of destroying her.

If we believe in the dignity of life, then shouldn’t we define that “life” as all of creation? Saints like Francis of Assisi have looked at that eco-theological perspective…so that is why I say the earth and not abortion should be our central theme of life, the dignity of life and the defence of those unable to defend themselves (i.e. ecosystems) cause of the development and life-style choices we mistake for dignity as human beings; this focus point too is more holistic and the defence of the unborn child will come naturally from a reordered priority of the sacred.

Bruce
Trickster (Aboriginal Symbol for Transformation)

More earth worship. Man, not rats, trees, the earth, etc., is made in the image and likeness of God. The earth and its creatures were created to help man with his material needs, not for man to worship them.

 

[paulsimons]

The whole thing on abortion is that animals have sex. Its what animals do, and during the act of sex we sometimes get pregnant. Now I know your “well abstain from sex” Well unfortunatly that doesnt work. Abstinance only works some of the time, when a creature (ie humans) decide its time for sex they go out and do it. Look I would be all for it if it worked but it doesnt work. Humans want to live longer and longer through science but yet we dont want to take in consideration that we all cannot be here. The reason the earth is being destroyed is do to the fact that we think we can just keep pushing for more growth and we cannot. Me and my girlfriend have made a vow to use contraception for the rest of our lives because we donnot want to contribute to a world that is literally destroying itself.

We all cannot or should not have a baby. You decide whats right for you and stop guilting people into doing what you do. Nuture what is already here and stop creating so much hate. Like I said before we want to all live longer and longer with science but dont want to use science to ensure we dont all recede into oblivion do to overpopulation.

Abstainace has proven to not work all of the time, and contriception has proved to work almost 100% of the time. So choose whats right for you. Create loving compassionante relationships with the people around you no matter what they choose. Remeber these are people who are already here, who have already been born who already have friends families, jobs, lives, and even have had an acctual breath of fresh air.

ps i didnt even cover rape, finacial burden etc… Also check out this infographic it has a bunch of cool info.

images.blippitt.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/reproductive-education.gif

 

[Anniejoe]

The earth is not the source of life. God is.

 

[paulsimons]

annie, does that even make sense?

If by GOD you mean the all, then yes. But we live in direct relationship with the earth. WIthout air you die, without food you die. Humans are just organic material.

 

[fix]

The whole thing on abortion is that animals have sex. Its what animals do, and during the act of sex we sometimes get pregnant. Now I know your “well abstain from sex” Well unfortunatly that doesnt work. Abstinance only works some of the time, when a creature (ie humans) decide its time for sex they go out and do it.

Do humans have free will and can they reason? Or, are they just “animals”?

Look I would be all for it if it worked but it doesnt work. Humans want to live longer and longer through science but yet we dont want to take in consideration that we all cannot be here. The reason the earth is being destroyed is do to the fact that we think we can just keep pushing for more growth and we cannot. Me and my girlfriend have made a vow to use contraception for the rest of our lives because we donnot want to contribute to a world that is literally destroying itself.

So humans are the problem?

We all cannot or should not have a baby. You decide whats right for you and stop guilting people into doing what you do.

So what is right is relative?

Abstainace has proven to not work all of the time, and contriception has proved to work almost 100% of the time. So choose whats right for you. Create loving compassionante relationships with the people around you no matter what they choose. Remeber these are people who are already here, who have already been born who already have friends families, jobs, lives, and even have had an acctual breath of fresh air.

Those born get the right to decide in your vision?

 

[Anniejoe]

You and I are not speaking the same language, Paulsimon. Humans are far more than just organic material, and I have no idea what you mean by your description of God as “the all”.

 

[sedonaman]

The whole thing on abortion is that animals have sex. Its what animals do, and during the act of sex we sometimes get pregnant. Now I know your “well abstain from sex” Well unfortunatly that doesnt work. Abstinance only works some of the time, when a creature (ie humans) decide its time for sex they go out and do it. Look I would be all for it if it worked but it doesnt work. Humans want to live longer and longer through science but yet we dont want to take in consideration that we all cannot be here. The reason the earth is being destroyed is do to the fact that we think we can just keep pushing for more growth and we cannot. Me and my girlfriend have made a vow to use contraception for the rest of our lives because we donnot want to contribute to a world that is literally destroying itself.

We all cannot or should not have a baby. You decide whats right for you and stop guilting people into doing what you do. Nuture what is already here and stop creating so much hate. Like I said before we want to all live longer and longer with science but dont want to use science to ensure we dont all recede into oblivion do to overpopulation.

Abstainace has proven to not work all of the time, and contriception has proved to work almost 100% of the time. So choose whats right for you. Create loving compassionante relationships with the people around you no matter what they choose. Remeber these are people who are already here, who have already been born who already have friends families, jobs, lives, and even have had an acctual breath of fresh air.

ps i didnt even cover rape, finacial burden etc… Also check out this infographic it has a bunch of cool info.

images.blippitt.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/reproductive-education.gif

So cut off you legs and you’ll never have flat feet.

 

[grasscutter]

More earth worship. Man, not rats, trees, the earth, etc., is made in the image and likeness of God. The earth and its creatures were created to help man with his material needs, not for man to worship them.

And the covenant that God declared wasn’t just for Noah and his family. It was for all humans, birds, wild and domestic animals. It’s inflammatory to suggest that caring for the environment and it’s creatures automatically means earth worship.

 

[TimothyH]

First of all, I find the position anthro-centric…as if humanity is the only dynamic that counts in creation and that the human life is somehow more valuable than an eco-system, a tree or a rat!

What you are stating here is not consistent with Christian belief.

Have you not read Genesis? Have you not read the story of how and why God created all things? God tells us that we are more valuable to him than a rat in the very first two chapters of the Bible.

The LORD God said: It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suited to him. So the LORD God formed out of the ground all the wild animals and all the birds of the air, and he brought them to the man to see what he would call them; whatever the man called each living creature was then its name. (Genesis 2:18)

God names man but allows man to name the animals. You get named by someone superior to you and through them you get your purpose and your identity. Pharoah renamed Joseph. Jesus renamed Peter. Where you get your name in the bible determines your idenity, your purpose and your order in creation. Man names the animals, and that shows that the animals are below man and serve man. As a good steward, man has to properly care for the animals, but in now way are the animals more valuable to God than man.

God gave all living creaters as a gift.

God blessed them and God said to them: Be fertile and multiply; fill the earth and subdue it. Have dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air, and all the living things that crawl on the earth. God also said: See, I give you every seed-bearing plant on all the earth and every tree that has seed-bearing fruit on it to be your food; and to all the wild animals, all the birds of the air, and all the living creatures that crawl on the earth, I give all the green plants for food. And so it happened. (Genesis 1:28-30)

Plants serve the animals, animals serve man, and man serves God. That is God’s design. That is the order in which God created everything.

We can talk about being good stewards of the enviroment, but saying that trees and rats are equal in value to humans is not consistent with Christianity and any shuch thought has to be abandoned by one who calls himself a follower of the God of the Christian Bible.

-Tim-

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

The Earth - Not Abortion - Should Be Central Catholic Theme!

God should be the central Catholic theme, followed by loving your neighbor as yourself. All things are included in these two commandments and it’s not that one thing is more important than the other but rather ALL things are important.

 

[grasscutter]

God should be the central Catholic theme, followed by loving your neighbor as yourself. All things are included in these two commandments and it’s not that one thing is more important than the other but rather ALL things are important.

:clapping:

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

We can talk about being good stewards of the enviroment, but saying that trees and rats are equal in value to humans is not consistent with Christianity and any shuch thought has to be abandoned by one who calls himself a follower of the God of the Christian Bible.

-Tim-

[BIBLEDRB]matthew 6:26[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[paulsimons]

In response to can humans be resonable. Well lets see there are 7billion people and growing and that is highly do to the reasonable nature of humans. Reasonable for me is I decide what is right for me and you decide what is right for you. To guilt a women into not having an already hard decision is a terrible thing to do. It is literally “hate”(opposite of love). It makes them feel ashamed for having to make one of the hardest descisions in life. Also yes even though me and my dogs seem very different Im very sure we both bleed red blood and have the same sense organs(touch,smell, hear,taste,sight). Heck I talk to them and they can even communicate back. So yes we are just animals too. Sure we have thumbs but thats a whole other discussion.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

In response to can humans be resonable. Well lets see there are 7billion people and growing and that is highly do to the reasonable nature of humans. Reasonable for me is I decide what is right for me and you decide what is right for you. To guilt a women into not having an already hard decision is a terrible thing to do. It is literally “hate”(opposite of love). It makes them feel ashamed for having to make one of the hardest descisions in life. Also yes even though me and my dogs seem very different Im very sure we both bleed red blood and have the same sense organs(touch,smell, hear,taste,sight). Heck I talk to them and they can even communicate back. So yes we are just animals too. Sure we have thumbs but thats a whole other discussion.

I will believe that we are the same as any animal on this planet when I see a squirrel and a dog deny their instincts and fast for 40 days for God’s glory.

 

[trickster]

What if one the the babies aborted was the one who could have developed a technology that would greatly help the environment, or solve world hunger, or broker peace in the Middle East, etc.

TOTALLY AGREED! Thanks Grasscutter (why do I wanna call you Grasshopper - do you remember that 70’s series)?

Bruce