The East (Specifically Eastern Orthodox) and Immaculate Conception

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For what it’s worth, you can replace ‘Orthodox’ for ‘Lutheran,’ and this post still works for the other more modern Marian dogmas like the PV. Sadly, more often for the second paragraph than the first. :o

Do carry on with the Original Sin discussion. I’m diggin’ this. 🍿
I kinda of follow your thinking, though when you say PV? Does that mean this here…

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I’m not sure you can replace EO for Lutheran here. Nor do I understand the thinking in relation to the Catholic Church on this which is proposed?
 
No, I don’t.
I would agree that leading a sinless life is not sufficient for salvation. Such a view would be Pelagian. Had the virgin been sinless without having been cleansed of the stain of original sin, that does not imply automatically salvation, as salvation can only be given by God.
But correct me if I am wrong - from what I understand, leading a sinless life is not only insufficient for the salvation, but also impossible without being freed from the Original Sin.
That depends on whose theory of the fallen intellect you subscribe to. Most Protestants would say that it is impossible. But many Church fathers did not think that the fallen intellect lost its ability to incline towards the moral good or that acts wrought by fallen man would necessarily always be sinful.
 
I kinda of follow your thinking, though when you say PV? Does that mean this here…

google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCYQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FPerpetual_virginity_of_Mary&ei=pTaxU8nIH5GKqAaW9IK4AQ&usg=AFQjCNH6-q-tZRICJRPSIvchbnx8JJm8_Q

I’m not sure you can replace EO for Lutheran here. Nor do I understand the thinking in relation to the Catholic Church on this which is proposed?
Right. It’s not a perfect replacement, no - not for the Immaculate Conception, anyway, because of Lutheran views on Original Sin and the fallen Human Condition. But it does work when we consider the later Roman dogmas of Mary, like the Perpetual Virginity and Assumption. The relevance to the thread was simply to show that the Orthodox are not alone in their aversion to calling these views dogma while simultaneously holding them as pious belief of the church catholic. You know, the whole Christian-freedom-while-still-remaining-within-our-respective-communion thing that we non-Trent types enjoy.
 
Right. It’s not a perfect replacement, no - not for the Immaculate Conception, anyway, because of Lutheran views on Original Sin and the fallen Human Condition. But it does work when we consider the later Roman dogmas of Mary, like the Perpetual Virginity and Assumption. The relevance to the thread was simply to show that the Orthodox are not alone in their aversion to calling these views dogma while simultaneously holding them as pious belief of the church catholic. You know, the whole Christian-freedom-while-still-remaining-within-our-respective-communion thing that we non-Trent types enjoy.
The Immaculate Conception I can’t see how it is relevant, in my mind the point of contention is with Baptism. And further not really so much with the Eastern Church. But with some traditionalist Catholics which becomes more of a mass and limbo discussion. For example here.

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As to the difficulties against this view which possessed such weight in the eyes of the eminent theologians we have mentioned, it is to be observed:

We must not confound St. Augustine’s private authority with the infallible authority of the Catholic Church; and if allowance be made for the confusion introduced into the Pelagian controversy by the want of a clear and explicit conception of the distinction between the natural and the supernatural order one can easily understand why St. Augustine and the Council of Carthage were practically bound to condemn the locus medius of the Pelagians. St. Augustine himself was inclined to deny this distinction altogether, although the Greek Fathers had already developed it pretty fully, and although some of the Pelagians had a glimmering of it (see Coelestius in August., De Peccat. Orig., v), they based their claim to natural happiness for unbaptized children on a denial of the Fall and original sin, and identified this state of happiness with the “life eternal” of the New Testament.

Moreover, even if one were to admit for the sake of argument that this canon of the Council of Carthage (the authenticity of which cannot be reasonably doubted) acquired the force of an ecumenical definition, one ought to interpret it in the light of what was understood to be at issue by both sides in the controversy, and therefore add to the simple locus medius the qualification which is added by Pius VI when, in the Constitution “Auctoreum Fidei”, he speaks of “locum illium et statum medium expertem culpae et poenae.”

Finally, in regard to the teaching of the Council of Florence, it is incredible that the Fathers there assembled had any intention of defining a question so remote from the issue on which reunion with the Greeks depended, and one which was recognized at the time as being open to free discussion and continued to be so regarded by theologians for several centuries afterwards. What the council evidently intended to deny in the passage alleged was the postponement of final awards until the day of judgement. Those dying in original sin are said to descend into Hell, but this does not necessarily mean anything more than that they are excluded eternally from the vision of God. In this sense they are damned; they have failed to reach their supernatural destiny, and this viewed objectively is a true penalty. Thus the Council of Florence, however literally interpreted, does not deny the possibility of perfect subjective happiness for those dying in original sin, and this is all that is needed from the dogmatic viewpoint to justify the prevailing Catholic notion of the children’s limbo, while from the standpoint of reason, as St. Gregory of Nazianzus pointed out long ago, no harsher view can be reconciled with a worthy concept of God’s justice and other attributes.

That said I understand the Dogma point, I don’t labor that point.
 
That depends on whose theory of the fallen intellect you subscribe to. Most Protestants would say that it is impossible. But many Church fathers did not think that the fallen intellect lost its ability to incline towards the moral good or that acts wrought by fallen man would necessarily always be sinful.
How does this fit into the Canon of the Council of Carthage then?
 
How does this fit into the Canon of the Council of Carthage then?
I think that the terms of the argument have changed slightly. Previously, the discussion centered on whether those who are unregenerate are capable of inclining towards the moral good, not whether they are capable of saving themselves or fulfilling the divine commandments, neither of which is equivalent simply to natural goodness.

The answer though largely depends on your interpretation of the canons of Carthage. Do you believe that Carthage taught that human nature is such that man is incapable of willing to do good? Then on the grounds of the dyothelite Sixth Ecumenical Synod, I must disagree, because in Christ, there are two wills, and both willed the good, and furthermore I would disagree, for if by nature we are evil, this would absurdly make God the author of something evil. However if you believe that the canons should be interpreted to mean that to be perfected beyond what is natural (which is man’s end), man requires divine assistance, I would not disagree.
 
I think that the terms of the argument have changed slightly. Previously, the discussion centered on whether those who are unregenerate are capable of inclining towards the moral good, not whether they are capable of saving themselves or fulfilling the divine commandments, neither of which is equivalent simply to natural goodness.

The answer though largely depends on your interpretation of the canons of Carthage. Do you believe that Carthage taught that human nature is such that man is incapable of willing to do good? Then on the grounds of the dyothelite Sixth Ecumenical Synod, I must disagree, because in Christ, there are two wills, and both willed the good, and furthermore I would disagree, for if by nature we are evil, this would absurdly make God the author of something evil. However if you believe that the canons should be interpreted to mean that to be perfected beyond what is natural (which is man’s end), man requires divine assistance, I would not disagree.
Is man capable of of doing good in his fallen state really isn’t in question as the Bible is quoted. Reforming or showing repentance can’t be arrived at without Gods will. If you pray its because God willed you to.

Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. And He was saying, “For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.”

Which you seem to agree with… “However if you believe that the canons should be interpreted to mean that to be perfected beyond what is natural (which is man’s end), man requires divine assistance, I would not disagree” Theres no contention on this point.

1 Corinthians 2:1 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.

Romans 8:7 because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in unrighteousness.

Nevertheless as I was suggesting above this creates a problem for the question of the eternal souls of those who die, unbaptized, in infancy, they were conceived with original sin, and did not receive Baptism.

Carthage is here, its clear and presents no issue.

That Adam was not created by God subject to death. (Canon 1 of 418 Synod)
That whosoever says that Adam, the first man, was created mortal, so that whether he had sinned or not, he would have died in body—that is, he would have gone forth of the body, not because his sin merited this, but by natural necessity, let him be anathema.

That infants are baptized for the remission of sins. (Canon 2 of 418 Synod)
Likewise it seemed good that whosoever denies that infants newly from their mother’s wombs should be baptized, or says that baptism is for remission of sins, but that they derive from Adam no original sin, which needs to be removed by the laver of regeneration, from whence the conclusion follows, that in them the form of baptism for the remission of sins, is to be understood as false and not true, let him be anathema. For no otherwise can be understood what the Apostle says, “By one man sin is come into the world, and death through sin, and so death passed upon all men in that all have sinned,” than the Catholic Church everywhere diffused has always understood it. For on account of this rule of faith even infants, who could have committed as yet no sin themselves, therefore are truly baptized for the remission of sins, in order that what in them is the result of generation may be cleansed by regeneration.

That the grace of God not only gives remission of sins, but also affords aid that we sin no more. (Canon 3 of 418 Synod) Likewise it seemed good, that whoever should say that the grace of God, by which a man is justified through Jesus Christ our Lord, avails only for the remission of past sins, and not for assistance against committing sins in the future, let him be anathema.

That without the grace of God we can do no good thing. (Canon 5 of 418 Synod)
It seemed good that whosoever should say that the grace of justification was given to us only that we might be able more readily by grace to perform what we were ordered to do through our free will; as if though grace was not given, although not easily, yet nevertheless we could even without grace fulfil the divine commandments, let him be anathema. For the Lord spake concerning the fruits of the commandments, when he said: “Without me ye can do nothing,” and not “Without me ye could do it but with difficulty.”

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