The EF "doesn't seem Catholic"

[EcceAgnusDei]

A few months ago I invited a devout Catholic family to attend a Solemn High Mass. The children are very active in their parish, the family goes on retreats, etc, etc, but they had never been to the EF. Afterwards, while discussing the Mass, the 17 year old son said that what he saw didn’t seem Catholic. He didn’t mean it in a negative way at all; what he meant was that it was so different from his experiences with the OF (as commonly celebrated in our diocese) that he found it hard to reconcile the two as being the same religion.

I bring up this story NOT to pit one form against the other or to say anything about superiority/inferiority, so please don’t go there. They are two forms of the same Rite as decreed by the Holy Father. But sometimes it seems to me that some people want to downplay the differences between the two forms, when in fact the difference *in the experience *of the two forms (in the pews, as commonly celebrated) is great. One would expect great differences between Rites, but it seems surprising to find them within a Rite.

Why do you think this is? Is it inherent in the forms? Causation vs. correlation? Is it positive, negative? Does it matter?

Thoughts?

• PAX

 

[wasserfall]

The only thought that comes to my mind is that the only possible conclusion one could derive from his comment is that his regular parish mass isn’t very Catholic.

 

[MarkThompson]

But sometimes it seems to me that some people want to downplay the differences between the two forms, when in fact the difference *in the experience *of the two forms (in the pews, as commonly celebrated) is great. One would expect great differences between Rites, but it seems surprising to find them within a Rite.

Then again, I wonder what a person would have said if he attended Solemn High Masses – with asperges, incense, deacon and subdeacon and servers, Gregorian and polyphonic choirs, etc. – all his life, and one day was taken to a Low Mass in some dumpy little chapel or hotel conference room. Is it so obvious that he would say, “Surely these are the same rite”? Would popular misconception on this point make any difference?

 

[TimothyH]

These discussions serve no purpose other than to argue whether one guy is more Catholic than the next. Two posts in and it has already started.

-Tim-

 

[MarkThompson]

The only thought that comes to my mind is that the only possible conclusion one could derive from his comment is that his regular parish mass isn’t very Catholic.

And in just the same way, when Byzantines attend a Latin Mass and find that it isn’t much like their usual Divine Liturgy, the only conclusion to be drawn is that the Latin Mass isn’t very Catholic.

… er, isn’t it?

 

[TimothyH]

Maybe the Church should just repeal the 17th Chapter of John’s Gospel.

 

[OraLabora]

If you were brought up in one form the other will seem foreign, at least as they are usually done these days.

On the other hand, an OF Mass at a Benedictine monastery, especially one still using Latin, would still feel foreign to the average OF parishioner. On the other hand, it would not feel so much different from the EF for someone not in the know.

I’ve seen people on this forum think a Latin OF Mass was EF. It’s not so much the form but rather lack of adherence to the true “spirit of Vatican II”. You know, the one that asked to retain Latin, give pride of place to Gregorian chant… something Benedictines have managed to achieve.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

What a horrible comment!

The only thought that comes to my mind is that the only possible conclusion one could derive from his comment is that his regular parish mass isn’t very Catholic.

I am the same age as the missal of Paul VI, and it is the only Mass I have ever known. I have seen them done very well, with chant, Latin, incense, all the bells & smells, and I have seen them wraught with abuses, and the one thing I always knew was that, even at it’s worst, the Mass was Catholic, and being celebrated by people who thought that what they were doing was the “pastoral thing” to do. Not that I am saying it is correct, or even acceptable, but it is what it is.

That said, I have to concur with the opinion of the young person mentioned in the OP. I have been to a few EF Masses, high & low, and while I appreciate them for their timeless beauty, I felt more like I was watching a play than actually attending/participating in a Mass.

I am happy that the Holy Father has allowed the EF to be available for those who find it spiritually uplifting. I don’t find it to be that way for me.

 

[wasserfall]

And in just the same way, when Byzantines attend a Latin Mass and find that it isn’t much like their usual Divine Liturgy, the only conclusion to be drawn is that the Latin Mass isn’t very Catholic.

… er, isn’t it?

Funnily enough I’ve never heard of an Eastern Catholic who, having attended a Latin Mass, said that it didn’t seem very Catholic.

The comment of the young man in the original post wasn’t that it was different, rather that it didn’t seem Catholic.

 

[wasserfall]

What a horrible comment!
I am the same age as the missal of Paul VI, and it is the only Mass I have ever known.

My comment was not about the OF mass at all – rather about how the mass was celebrated at that young man’s home parish.

 

[Oneofthewomen]

My comment was not about the OF mass at all – rather about how the mass was celebrated at that young man’s home parish.

And it is still horrible because it is an assumption.

 

[Julia_Mae]

Why do you think this is?

It’s about what you are used to. The boy identifies “Catholic” with his own lifelong experience. I would never go to an EF Mass. To me, not Catholic. But people who grew up with it, don’t find the OF very Catholic. It’s just subjective.

 

[AMDG1]

The teenager reacted as I would have expected…they DO seem different because they ARE different. We can argue how/why (but please don’t folks, it’s been done elsewhere ad nauseam)…but the bottom line is while both are equally valid, they are also both different in form.

Buy the kid a 1962 missal and invite him back.

Or…invite him to an OF Latin high mass, it will feel different yet familiar too.

 

[agnes_therese]

I bring up this story NOT to pit one form against the other or to say anything about superiority/inferiority, so please don’t go there.

A discussion of the two forms without “going there” seems to be impossible here at CAF. Which is really too bad.

 

[rben20]

They are different but…where are we suppose to go from there?

 

[willofgods]

This is similar to someone who’d only ever known the hustle and bustle of New York City going to the woods of Oregon and saying that it does not seem to them to be the America they know. America is America, just some parts look different

The same goes with the EF in contrast to the OF; It’s different without a doubt, but it’s Catholic. It’s just he isn’t familiar with that -]part of the country/-] form of the Mass.

 

[ConstantineTG]

They are different but…where are we suppose to go from there?

The problem with today’s world is we always view difference meaning that one has to be better than the other. Its not just in forms of Liturgy. Women don’t want to be different than men because they think if they are seen as different, it means they are lesser. We don’t want to acknowledge there are differences in races in culture again because we think difference means one has to be better than the other. We ignore the fact that variety means we are meant to complement one another. Everyone has something lacking and everyone has something better than the other. We should see this as an opportunity for one another to help each other rather than compete. Same with the Liturgies, not only between the two forms of the Roman Rite, but all the other Rites as well. The uniqueness of each one should complement the others to give us the fullness of our faith. It is not meant that one is superior to the other.

 

[Phemie]

This is similar to someone who’d only ever known the hustle and bustle of New York City going to the woods of Oregon and saying that it does not seem to them to be the America they know. America is America, just some parts look different

The same goes with the EF in contrast to the OF; It’s different without a doubt, but it’s Catholic. It’s just he isn’t familiar with that -]part of the country/-] form of the Mass.

That.

By the way, the French quote in your signature took me back 45 years when I last prayed the rosary with my aunt Ethel. She always said that at the end of the rosary.

 

[annspazz]

The teenager reacted as I would have expected…they DO seem different because they ARE different. We can argue how/why (but please don’t folks, it’s been done elsewhere ad nauseam)…but the bottom line is while both are equally valid, they are also both different in form.

Buy the kid a 1962 missal and invite him back.

Or…invite him to an OF Latin high mass, it will feel different yet familiar too.

I was raised on the OF Mass…when I was young I had the occasion to attend a EF Mass at my parish (this was in the late 70’s…I think). I found it interesting…but did not understand it at all. I am planning on attending another EF Mass this month…but I think the key is to study the form…what is going on and what the contents means. Too often (even with the OF Mass) we just go…but do not understand the meaning behind what is going on.

I think you hit a key point here.

 

[tominrichmond]

I think it’s more a situation of giving someone who’s just been fed on thin milk a big steak. It’s more nutritious and yummier, but awfully hard to swallow until you get used to it.

This young man, and many others, need to be slowly introduced to the Church’s venerable traditions that have been shamefully suppressed, whether de facto or de jure doesn’t matter.

My experience has been that a Catholic of good will quickly comes to appreciate the older form as more connected with the history and tradition of the Church, and less time-bound than the rite devised in 1970.