The Elderly and Their Decision to Die

[Candelora]

James and Martha are both in their late eighties. They both have a terminal illness. Their treatment has been so far successful and enabled them to stay at home with family. James and Martha are relatively comfortable due to minimal side effects and little pain.

However, they want to DIE!

Reason for desire: Grand children’s financial need…

Do you think that more elderly are choosing to die or (more apt to contemplate euthanasia) in order to free up money entrusted to their loved ones?

This at first glance appears to be a noble act. Even scripture like - “Greater love has no man than this, than a man lay down his life for his friends” (Jn 15:13).

However, it does not seem to line up with the teaching, “From conception to natural death”

Anyway, I would really appreciate your take on this issue.

Thanks
Candelora

PS The children are “not” advocates for Euthanasia.

 

[Little_One0307]

Hi,

You may be onto something when you say that more older people are opting out because of financial reasons, but I am sure that depression, pain, and inconvenience pays a big part in it as well. But I believe the root reason is selfishness on their part. I guess the same reasoning could be used for it as it is used when someone takes their own life. *

And no it does not line up with Teaching, both in Sacred Scripture and in Tradition.

The verse you quoted is taken out of context, it means dying for another to save their lives or dying for the faith. Saving someone financially does not qualify for meeting this Scripture.

Catechism of the Catholic Church

Paragraph 2777 - Whatever its motives and means, direct euthansai consists in putting an end to the lives of handicapped, sick, or dying persons. IT IS MORALLY unacceptable [emphasis mine].

For related paragraphs see Paragrapsh 2276-2279. May as well read paragraph 2280-2281 as euthansia is another form of suicide.

The Scripture you quoted is John 15:13 - My notes under this says The fullest expression of love consists in pouring out our lives to God as Jesus Christ did on the Cross.

I for one stand with the Magesterium on this one, though I have not always been this solid with euthansia. It took a lot of prayer and grace to come to this position that I can take today.

Euthansia is ALWAYS wrong. No circumstances, no situations, nothing will ever make it right or good.

God Bless.

Little One0307*

 

[thallon]

i think if they kill themselves they should be arrested…

How does God see it?

Self death, to end one’s moral life is so hard to even imagine,
to stop breathing, to stop smelling, to stop seeing all that this wonderful life has…
but
can you imagine being in pain, terrible pain, fear, day after day?

i would support the termination of life if it is sustained by machine or
unusual (name removed by moderator)ut, like constant blood transfusions.
i would support the treatment with drugs of a morphine like to dull
a person nearing death, say with cancer.

but i would not support people just offing themselves because things are a bit hard
to cope with.

 

[puzzleannie]

Ja

Do you think that more elderly are choosing to die or (more apt to contemplate euthanasia) in order to free up money entrusted to their loved ones?

This at first glance appears to be a noble act. Even scripture like - “Greater love has no man than this, than a man lay down his life for his friends” (Jn 15:13).

ia.

the scripture refers to laying down your life in order that someone else might live, not in order to secure them an inheritance of money.

Euthanasia is suicide when done by the patient, and murder when done or facilitated by anyone else. We don’t come into life when we decide, nor do we leave it on our own decision. these happen in God’s time, not ours.

 

[stephe1987]

True, it’s nice to leave your heirs as much money as possible, but you also need to live YOUR life. You saved up all this money to retire and enjoy life until your natural death. Don’t just suicide the day you retire to maximize the amount of money your kids/grandkids will get. You earned that money and you deserve to spend it. Let your kids/grandkids earn their own money.

 

[ANNE_2]

Killing oneself so children can get more money, is a horrible and sinful example to set for the children. It teaches money is more important than life.

God gave life, it is only His to take it away.
Thou Shall NOT Kill.

 

[Luvya]

However, they want to DIE!

It is their decision. It is their life. When my mother was at the end of her life (age 82, and her system was slowly shutting down), she did not want to hang around. She decided that she will die, and stopped to take food. Obviously I could have decided to override her decision, could have forced her to go to a hospital, and force-feed her. I decided to respect her decidion and her dignity and did not interfere with her decision. It took about a week for her to paas away. We stayed with her until her last breath. There is nothing more undignifying to a person to take away their decision over their own fate.

I wish to all who want to override people’s decision when they want to die to suffer the same fate. They deserve all the suffering of having their decision taken away by some “do-gooders”, so they would learn what a horrible, undignifying fate they want to impose on others. If someone wants to die, it is her decision, and if God disagrees, he will provide a miracle to keep that person alive.

Of course I know I am playing with fire here. If this last paragraph will “earn” me a ban, so be it.

 

[Luvya]

However, they want to DIE!

It is their decision. It is their life. When my mother was at the end of her life (age 82, and her system was slowly shutting down), she did not want to hang around. She decided that she will die, and stopped to take food. Obviously I could have decided to override her decision, could have forced her to go to a hospital, and force-feed her. I decided to respect her decision and her dignity and did not interfere with her decision. It took about a week for her to pass away. We stayed with her until her last breath. There is nothing more undignifying to a person to take away their decision over their own fate.

I wish to all who want to override people’s decision when they want to die to suffer the same fate. They deserve all the suffering of having their decision taken away by some “do-gooders”, so they would learn what a horrible, undignifying fate they want to impose on others. If someone wants to die, it is her decision. To emphasize: I do not wish actual suffering on anyone, only the suffering of the indignity when they are deprived of being able to carry out their desire.

Of course I know I am playing with fire here. If this last paragraph will “earn” me a ban, so be it.

 

[PeterGStanley]

I am a Hospice Palliative care volunteer - I visit the ward every Saturday for a few hours and I have yet to see someone who has given up - I have been to the death of several people as a companion volunteer and all these people died of lung cancer - a terrible way to die and they ALL fought to the last breath.
What I have seen is families who abandon their loved ones because their scared or feeling sorry for themselves instead of the person who’s is dieing.I’ve been to seminars on this and these people do it because they feel they are a burden to family members - they feel the negative emotions of family members and loved ones around them - so they begin to think about ending it - if the support and love was there I really don’t believe these people would consider it.In my experience with some family members rather than cherishing every last moment with their loved one , they are too busy feeling sorry for themselves and want it to be over with and I can feel that attitude coming from the person so what do you think the sick person feels.
Selfish world = Selfish feelings Me Me Me Me - what kind of a person are you?

 

[puzzleannie]

It is their decision. It is their life. When my mother was at the end of her life (age 82, and her system was slowly shutting down), she did not want to hang around. She decided that she will die, and stopped to take food. Obviously I could have decided to override her decision, could have forced her to go to a hospital, and force-feed her. I decided to respect her decision and her dignity and did not interfere with her decision. It took about a week for her to pass away. We stayed with her until her last breath. There is nothing more undignifying to a person to take away their decision over their own fate.

Of course I know I am playing with fire here. If this last paragraph will “earn” me a ban, so be it.

in the first place nobody at ever in any time in history has power of decision over their own fate when it comes to earthly events especially when you are born or when you die. When you die the earthly death is not your “fate” rather where you will spend eternity is your fate, and it is not fate it is indeed full free will choice.

What OP is hypothesizing is not the end of life decision to refuse further treatment, but active deliberate suicide. Moreover suicide under pressure from greedy children. It is a short step from condoning this to euthanasia under government fiat for cost saving purposes.

 

[Luvya]

in the first place nobody at ever in any time in history has power of decision over their own fate when it comes to earthly events especially when you are born or when you die.

You gotta be kidding. We have no control at all over our fate? Ever? We have no power to make decisions? We definitely have no control when we are born, but we do have control when we die and the time in-between.

Moreover suicide under pressure from greedy children.

Where did you get these “greedy” children? Not one word was said about any pressure, and they are concerned about their grandchildren. If and when I would get into the situation of spending money to extend a futile and painful existence a few days/weeks/months/years or give it to my loved ones, I would definitely give the money to them. To do otherwise is selfish.

The OP merely says: “They are in their late 80’s. They have terminal illness. They are relatively comfortable and in little pain.” There is no word about pressure. What their reason is for wishing their death is their business. Human dignity demands that their wish should be granted.

 

[St_Francis]

Hey all,
There is a HUGE difference between discontinuing medical treatment and killing a person or self because of illness!!!

The first is all right to do. Candelora said that the grandparents were both suffering from terminal illnesses and wanted to die. You get old and death does not seem like the scarey thing it is to the young.

We don’t know the family’s financial circumstances. Some people inherit money and want to be able to pass that along intact rather than using it up on expensive medical treatment to prolong their lives for a few days or weeks.

Other people might be dependent to one extent or another on their children. a family might be unable to afford to send the children to a good Catholic school because they are helping the grandparents, and the grandparents might believe that these resources would be better spent on the grandchildren rather than extendingtheir own lives for only a short time.

An enormous percentage of medical care is spent on the last six months. I have known elderly people who called a halt to the care because it just didn’t make sense to them to be shuffled around trying to keep them alive for so short a time.

Euthanasia (sometimes known as active euthanasia), wherein some action is committed, or a necessary action neglected, is alwaus wrong; however, dying from a disease or state such as kidney failure is a natural death, and in no way to be condemned.

 

[PeterGStanley]

Hey all,
There is a HUGE difference between discontinuing medical treatment and killing a person or self because of illness!!!

The first is all right to do. Candelora said that the grandparents were both suffering from terminal illnesses and wanted to die. You get old and death does not seem like the scarey thing it is to the young.

We don’t know the family’s financial circumstances. Some people inherit money and want to be able to pass that along intact rather than using it up on expensive medical treatment to prolong their lives for a few days or weeks.

Other people might be dependent to one extent or another on their children. a family might be unable to afford to send the children to a good Catholic school because they are helping the grandparents, and the grandparents might believe that these resources would be better spent on the grandchildren rather than extendingtheir own lives for only a short time.

An enormous percentage of medical care is spent on the last six months. I have known elderly people who called a halt to the care because it just didn’t make sense to them to be shuffled around trying to keep them alive for so short a time.

Euthanasia (sometimes known as active euthanasia), wherein some action is committed, or a necessary action neglected, is alwaus wrong; however, dying from a disease or state such as kidney failure is a natural death, and in no way to be condemned.

Well thats the American health system - if your fortunate enough to live in another country you don’t go bankrupt due to medical expenses - so unfortunate for it to be a cause for assisted suicide.

 

[St_Francis]

It is their decision. It is their life. When my mother was at the end of her life (age 82, and her system was slowly shutting down), she did not want to hang around. She decided that she will die, and stopped to take food. Obviously I could have decided to override her decision, could have forced her to go to a hospital, and force-feed her. I decided to respect her decision and her dignity and did not interfere with her decision. It took about a week for her to pass away. We stayed with her until her last breath. There is nothing more undignifying to a person to take away their decision over their own fate. …

I wanted to highlight for other readers that you wrote that your mother’s system was shutting down. When this happens, food and water (or nutritional and hydration) can not only do no good but also cause discomfort to the patient; what happened was the normal course of events.

My sympathy for your loss.

 

[Brendan]

This at first glance appears to be a noble act. Even scripture like - “Greater love has no man than this, than a man lay down his life for his friends” (Jn 15:13). .

What you are talking about is laying ones life down for his friend’s bank account.

And THAT is NOT scriptural.

 

[Little_One0307]

What you are talking about is laying ones life down for his friend’s bank account.

And THAT is NOT scriptural.

…nor ethically or morally correct by any standards, muchless God’s Holy and Perfect Standard.

 

[Luvya]

I wanted to highlight for other readers that you wrote that your mother’s system was shutting down. When this happens, food and water (or nutritional and hydration) can not only do no good but also cause discomfort to the patient; what happened was the normal course of events.

My sympathy for your loss.

Very kind of you, and I appreciate your words. It happened many years ago, but I still remember those days vividly. She gave us a a huge gift by choosing to stay with us, and allow us to be part of her life when it was about to end.

 

[PeterGStanley]

I wanted to highlight for other readers that you wrote that your mother’s system was shutting down. When this happens, food and water (or nutritional and hydration) can not only do no good but also cause discomfort to the patient; what happened was the normal course of events.

My sympathy for your loss.

Agreed -
Benefits of dehydration, first remember that hospice believes the benefits should always outweigh the burdens. Up until the middle of the 20th Century dehydration was a normal end-of-life process and acted as a natural anesthetic for our ancestors. In the middle of the 20th Century, healthcare became high tech and dehydration was thought to cause discomfort. Before hospices, almost everyone in the hospital setting who was dying received hydration for comfort.
Many healthcare professionals questioned the need for hydration at the end-of-life but only until Hospices where established where the benefits of dehydration at the end-of-life accepted as natural part of the dying process. Have you ever considered that hydration may actually cause suffering in patients with terminal r irreversible end-stage multi-organ failure?
Dehydration does not cause death, but effectively reduces pain and allows the disease process to take its natural course. Test have shown that there are natural endorphins (anesthetics) which are produced and help relieve pain and therefore can help reduce the amount of pain medication needed at the end-of-life. In patients with heart failure, liver and kidney failure giving fluids can cause overload and patients can drown in their own secretions.

Food also can create the same effect - it is a natural part of death to not want food or water. Normally you would just wet the lips of the dying patient to prevent the drying out of the lips.

 

[Candelora]

What you are talking about is laying ones life down for his friend’s bank account.

And THAT is NOT scriptural.

Yes, you’re right! That would not be in alignment with the words of Our Lord, if it was solely for the acquirement of funds. However, the elderly desire death for reasons beyond financial recovery.

It’s more so for the recovery of their grand children’s quality of life that was adversely affected due to layoffs. The layoffs resulted in loss of health care. Therefore, medical issues are no longer addressed in the same manner in which they were. This also applies to the great grandchildren as well. So, it’s not the “money” so much but what the “money” once provided.

So, they start to say, "Perhaps if I lay down my life for the ones that I love, than their life can be “better” or at least restored to the status it was.

I know this is not God’s will.

It’s not the heart of God but their “broken heart” that bring these thoughts to mind!

I was speaking to a woman. Her name is Amanda. And she said; “It is sad that they should even have to contemplate such thoughts while living in America. The land of the free and the land of the plenty but these are extraordinary times and financial poverty has entered the homes of many. Therefore, it’s not that surprising.” And then she asked a question.

“What if the elderly chose to stop taking treatment and begin a palliative care regimen? Then they can be free of pain and their bodies will die naturally. Isn’t that in accord with Catholic teaching?”

I was not sure how to answer that because according to the teachings of the Church you do not have to accept treatment for a terminal illness. You can choose to die naturally. However, doesn’t the intention that underlies the decision “matter?” In this case wouldn’t they still be choosing to “Euthanize” themselves and thus be out of alignment with the will of God?

I would appreciate your (name removed by moderator)ut…

 

[Listener]

In answer to the hypothetical question, I can understand why the couple would think that way. Dying in the USA can be a real financial tragedy.

I knew of a man who was in a nursing home for years before he finally died. Of course, he ran out of money and Medicaid paid the astronomical nursing home bills. His wife was allowed to keep their house and live in it.

After that, the wife passed away. Normally, the children would inherit the house. The State, which had paid all of the bills with Medicaid, put a lien on the house and charged the heirs with every dime that the state had paid for the man’s nursing home bills.

I guess in other countries they have a system where you don’t have to go bankrupt when someone dies.

As upsetting as it is for someone to get sick and die suddenly, it sure is a lot easier on the finances!