The elite super wealthy and social justice

[Bill_7154]

Do the super wealthy, those worth hundrends of millions or billions of dollars have a greater role in working to assist the world in achieving social justice than the rest of us? Those that live off of the dividends of dividents of stocks in companies they own.

If any of these individuals are Catholics, should they be giving 10% of 20% of their wealth to the Church? If not, should they be giving 10-20% of any increases in wealth they accumulate on any given year to the Church? Let’s face it, people with this kind of money don’t get it through income that is taxable via federal income tax. Their wealth, and increases in such, are obtained through ownership (land, companies). If they make a 50 million profit in one year by selling a piece of land should that money they made be subjected to giving 10-20% to thier Church, assuming they are Catholic?

Does anyone know if there is a way to determine if any of the extremely wealthy are in fact Catholic and if what they do with their money is made available to the public? I’m curious to know what % of the super wealthy of the world give to the church or to other charities in proportion to what Catholics are told to give to their Church based on their incomes.

I suppose it’s nice to hear that someone donated 10 million to such and such a cause, but if the person is worth 2 billion dollars 10 million is possibly a very small percentage of what their overall increase in wealth was on that given year. 100 million would be 5% I believe, yes?

I’m particularly interested in those who rather than simply living private lives somehow or another involve themselves in the shaping of public opinion or are public advocates (or through the companies they own) seek to shape public opinion or advocate one way or another the way that the world should be run, etc.

I would also be interested in knowing who among the super elite wealthy are in fact Catholic or Christian (the 2-300 million + club, give or take). I beleive that they are in a position to do great good, even if it is only from assuming a podium and evangelizing, if not giving monies to the Church.

And do people believe that monies that the super wealthy, if Catholic (or if another religion and the religion dictates a % of their earnings they should donate to their church) should be giving a % of all of the wealth that they accumulate or do poeple believe that real estate deals, appreciation of real estate if it were subsantial, say 100 million in a given year, selling of companies or stakes in companies where they profit, increases in values of stock portfolio’s, etc should be subject to their churches policy re: giving a % of their earnings to their church.

The reason I ask is that most of us, should we own houses, etc would (I think) typically not consider a 10% increse in the assessment of the value of the house as ‘income’. But for the super elite, super wealthy, they do not really ‘work’ for a living, earning ‘income’ in the traditional sense of the word. They earn their monies through increases in the value of real estate, buying and selling of real estate, companies/parts of companies, and draw moneies from dividends from their portfolio’s, so their ‘income’, the concept of their income and the way they earn income is different than the vast majority of people.

If someone is worth 500 million, increases their wealth by 50 million that year, but only takes an ‘income’ subject to ‘income tax’ of 250,000 in the year, is this person doing their duty by donating 25-50K to their church?

Thoughts?
Bill

 

[interestedman]

Do the super wealthy, those worth hundrends of millions or billions of dollars have a greater role in working to assist the world in achieving social justice than the rest of us? Those that live off of the dividends of dividents of stocks in companies they own.

If any of these individuals are Catholics, should they be giving 10% of 20% of their wealth to the Church? If not, should they be giving 10-20% of any increases in wealth they accumulate on any given year to the Church? Let’s face it, people with this kind of money don’t get it through income that is taxable via federal income tax. Their wealth, and increases in such, are obtained through ownership (land, companies). If they make a 50 million profit in one year by selling a piece of land should that money they made be subjected to giving 10-20% to thier Church, assuming they are Catholic?

Does anyone know if there is a way to determine if any of the extremely wealthy are in fact Catholic and if what they do with their money is made available to the public? I’m curious to know what % of the super wealthy of the world give to the church or to other charities in proportion to what Catholics are told to give to their Church based on their incomes.

I suppose it’s nice to hear that someone donated 10 million to such and such a cause, but if the person is worth 2 billion dollars 10 million is possibly a very small percentage of what their overall increase in wealth was on that given year. 100 million would be 5% I believe, yes?

I’m particularly interested in those who rather than simply living private lives somehow or another involve themselves in the shaping of public opinion or are public advocates (or through the companies they own) seek to shape public opinion or advocate one way or another the way that the world should be run, etc.

I would also be interested in knowing who among the super elite wealthy are in fact Catholic or Christian (the 2-300 million + club, give or take). I beleive that they are in a position to do great good, even if it is only from assuming a podium and evangelizing, if not giving monies to the Church.

And do people believe that monies that the super wealthy, if Catholic (or if another religion and the religion dictates a % of their earnings they should donate to their church) should be giving a % of all of the wealth that they accumulate or do poeple believe that real estate deals, appreciation of real estate if it were subsantial, say 100 million in a given year, selling of companies or stakes in companies where they profit, increases in values of stock portfolio’s, etc should be subject to their churches policy re: giving a % of their earnings to their church.

The reason I ask is that most of us, should we own houses, etc would (I think) typically not consider a 10% increse in the assessment of the value of the house as ‘income’. But for the super elite, super wealthy, they do not really ‘work’ for a living, earning ‘income’ in the traditional sense of the word. They earn their monies through increases in the value of real estate, buying and selling of real estate, companies/parts of companies, and draw moneies from dividends from their portfolio’s, so their ‘income’, the concept of their income and the way they earn income is different than the vast majority of people.

If someone is worth 500 million, increases their wealth by 50 million that year, but only takes an ‘income’ subject to ‘income tax’ of 250,000 in the year, is this person doing their duty by donating 25-50K to their church?

Thoughts?
Bill

Bill and Melinda Gates give billions of dollars to charities. But since Melinda gates supports birth control it erases everything good she has ever done and she is like Hitler (paraphrasing from threads I have read about her on here).

 

[interestedman]

And do people believe that monies that the super wealthy, if Catholic (or if another religion and the religion dictates a % of their earnings they should donate to their church) should be giving a % of all of the wealth that they accumulate or do poeple believe that real estate deals, appreciation of real estate if it were subsantial, say 100 million in a given year, selling of companies or stakes in companies where they profit, increases in values of stock portfolio’s, etc should be subject to their churches policy re: giving a % of their earnings to their church.

The church doesn’t have a mandatory giving policy. They suggest you should give to the church so asking if wealthy people should be “subject to their church’s policy” doesn’t really make sense IMO.

 

[Bill_7154]

Bill and Melinda Gates give billions of dollars to charities. But since Melinda gates supports birth control it erases everything good she has ever done and she is like Hitler (paraphrasing from threads I have read about her on here).

I realize that the Gates (and I believe that Warren Buffet) 2 of the most wealthy in the world, and both self made (Buffet started out I believe with a 50K loan and started investing) have donated (or pledged donation) of the overwhelming majority of their wealth to charity. It’s my understanding that Buffet pledged his monies to the Gates foundation. While I believe that this is unusually rare for super wealthy to donate most all of their monies to charity, it is interesting to know that super rich are willing to and follow through in doing so.

However, as you point out, WHERE the money goes to makes the world of difference. And if what I learned previously about Buffet’s plans (re: Gates foundation) is still true, his enourmous wealth is going to the same places.

Another side point: I do have concerns with the way that people donate, some will donate but the foundation will only give off like the increases in value, having the foundation continue on for eternity. It’s my understanding that Buffet has stipulated that his monies be dispursed aggressively, donating down his wealth aggressively, rather than just the profits of the wealth. But as has been pointed out as to where the Gates money goes, assuming Buffet’s money is still going to gates foundation as I previously learned, it makes all the difference in the world.

But it does give me hope that super wealthy are willing to donate the overwhelming majority of their wealth to charity. I heard that Gates is only leaving like 5 million to each of his kids. I assume that it’s extremely rare for such a super wealthy person to give such a tiny % of their wealth to their offspring.

 

[Bill_7154]

The church doesn’t have a mandatory giving policy. They suggest you should give to the church so asking if wealthy people should be “subject to their church’s policy” doesn’t really make sense IMO.

Then use your immagination and consider the church’s ‘suggestion’ a policy. I assume your able to do that. Thanks for working with me on this. Are you now willing to respond to my post since I have cleared that up?

 

[Cristiano]

Why do you think that it is your business to know what Catholics donate to the Church? Personally I think that seeking such information and deciding for others is based on a very non-Catholic culture.

 

[austenbosten]

How about this, how about you start worrying about how much you put into the charity till instead of others? npatrol:

 

[Bill_7154]

Why do you think that it is your business to know what Catholics donate to the Church? Personally I think that seeking such information and deciding for others is based on a very non-Catholic culture.

The reason I’m asking I can’t be specific about because the topic isn’t allowed in this forum, and I"m not asking to know what ‘Catholics’ are donating, I’m asking what super rich people who are worth 500 million or so and up are donating. I’m asking questions, I"m not trying to make decisions for anyone. I’m seeking people’s opinions.

 

[Bill_7154]

How about this, how about you start worrying about how much you put into the charity till instead of others? npatrol:

What makes you think I don’t pay attention to, or worry about how much I put into the charity till?

Do you think that it’s not OK to have a conversation about super rich people and the way they interact and contribute to charity? If so, I can certainly respect that. I would be curious to know why you hold that opion, should you care to share.

And the reason I basically kept my post to donations to churches and not charity in general is because this is a Catholic forum. As another poster pointed out, one of the richest people in the world donates the overwhelming majority of his wealth (which I think is highly uncommon), however since it is going to fund things like abortion it calls into question the morality of such donating. I simply assume that donating to Churches is superior to donating to a lot of other places that may be considered ‘charitible organizations’.

 

[Cristiano]

What makes you think I don’t pay attention to, or worry about how much I put into the charity till?

Do you think that it’s not OK to have a conversation about super rich people and the way they interact and contribute to charity? If so, I can certainly respect that. I would be curious to know why you hold that opion, should you care to share.

And the reason I basically kept my post to donations to churches and not charity in general is because this is a Catholic forum. As another poster pointed out, one of the richest people in the world donates the overwhelming majority of his wealth (which I think is highly uncommon), however since it is going to fund things like abortion it calls into question the morality of such donating. I simply assume that donating to Churches is superior to donating to a lot of other places that may be considered ‘charitible organizations’.

I think that this is an exercise in moral relativism. What applies to the poor also applies to the super rich and viceversa, there are no differences when it comes to the moral law. Thus I would say the it is not OK to discuss only specifics regarding the super rich. You might feel free to discuss some charitable efforts if the are made public by the donor but you still have to deal with assumptions about the intent and we cannot read other people hearts or minds.

 

[Corki]

Another side point: I do have concerns with the way that people donate, some will donate but the foundation will only give off like the increases in value, having the foundation continue on for eternity.

Many charities prefer that kind of foundational giving. The proceeds over time contribute more to the charity than a lump sum given up front.

But it does give me hope that super wealthy are willing to donate the overwhelming majority of their wealth to charity. I heard that Gates is only leaving like 5 million to each of his kids. I assume that it’s extremely rare for such a super wealthy person to give such a tiny % of their wealth to their offspring

Not as rare as you might think. I know Tom Monoghan, who is Catholic, did something similar and didn’t even wait until he died.

 

[Cristiano]

The reason I’m asking I can’t be specific about because the topic isn’t allowed in this forum, and I"m not asking to know what ‘Catholics’ are donating, I’m asking what super rich people who are worth 500 million or so and up are donating. I’m asking questions, I"m not trying to make decisions for anyone. I’m seeking people’s opinions.

I think that you are still asking about something that is not your business. Catholics should not inquire into other peoples works of charity, we should only show appreciation when we see works of charity.

 

[Bismarck]

I am often reminded of a homily I heard a few weeks back in not coveting thy neighbors wealth. The bible as well teaches to give while so many unfortunately believe they have a right to take.

That and the rich already pay the vast bulk of taxes in America

 

[Corki]

The reason I’m asking I can’t be specific about because the topic isn’t allowed in this forum, and I"m not asking to know what ‘Catholics’ are donating, I’m asking what super rich people who are worth 500 million or so and up are donating. I’m asking questions, I"m not trying to make decisions for anyone. I’m seeking people’s opinions.

As individuals, even the “super rich” are entitled to thier privacy, don’t you think? For every person who’s donations are well-known, there are probably dozens who donate quietly.

You may not mean it this way but statements like

Does anyone know if there is a way to determine if any of the extremely wealthy are in fact Catholic and if what they do with their money is made available to the public?

sound like investigative reporting into something that is not anyone’s business. IF the person chooses to avail him/herself of a tax deduction for the charitable giving, it’s the business of the IRS but I don’t see any other reason why such information would be shared, let alone “made available to the public”.

 

[Usagi]

The reason I’m asking I can’t be specific about because the topic isn’t allowed in this forum, and I"m not asking to know what ‘Catholics’ are donating, I’m asking what super rich people who are worth 500 million or so and up are donating. I’m asking questions, I"m not trying to make decisions for anyone. I’m seeking people’s opinions.

The Church expects all her members to provide for the Church itself and for the less fortunate according to their means. She does not specify an amount, like the Old Testament tithe, because some may be able to part with far less than ten percent, and others considerably more. So, while I doubt there will ever be a binding rule, Catholics of extreme wealth are likely supposed to be giving far more than ten or twenty percent to some combination of Church and charity.

Usagi

 

[Bill_7154]

I think that this is an exercise in moral relativism. What applies to the poor also applies to the super rich and viceversa, there are no differences when it comes to the moral law. Thus I would say the it is not OK to discuss only specifics regarding the super rich. You might feel free to discuss some charitable efforts if the are made public by the donor but you still have to deal with assumptions about the intent and we cannot read other people hearts or minds.

I have personally engaged in many discussions about the poor on this forum, and what they do and do not only receive, but donate, should possibly donate, and why.

So if your trying to paint me as a hyppocrite you fail.

You really believe that it’s not OK to discuss specifics regarding the super rich? I have read quite a few threads here specific to ‘the homeless’, etc. Question: Did you speak up then and say "It’s NOT OK to discuss only specifics of the homeless?

And while it is true we can not read people’s hearts and minds I have read many posts questioning the hearts and minds of the poor, the homelss, people making assumptions about them…making guesses about their intents, etc…

so i agree we can not know people’s hearts and minds. But we can make observations about people’s behaviors and hypothesize about what might or might not be behind such behavior.

Frankly, I’m surprized to be getting this kind of reaction in a Catholic forum when I have read threads speaking about some of God’s most needy of children with posts that seemed to be somewhat thoughtless and have never read a post saying “Discussing the poor is off limits!”

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

I know Tom Monoghan, who is Catholic, did something similar and didn’t even wait until he died.

Can you share a little about him? I would be very interested in learning about him as from what you are saying he would be someone that I would love to know about and see if there are aspects of the way he lived his life that I might learn from and model myeslf after to the extent I could.

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Bill_7154]

I think that you are still asking about something that is not your business. Catholics should not inquire into other peoples works of charity, we should only show appreciation when we see works of charity.

I am inquiring into the giving of the super elite rich pepople, not Cathoics. My OP should be clear on that. I am curious to know how the super elite rich (regardless of faith or lack thereof) spend their money.

There have been several posts here about poor people, homelss people, people on welfare…and not many people seemed to have a problem discussing their behavior or what they ‘should’ be doing.

I make a thread about .00000001% of the population and how they spend their money and all of a sudden there is a problem with THAT?

I’m starting to get the feeling that this site may be classist. I hope that this feeling is not correct. This is a Catholic site. And while I will be the first to admit that I am far from perfect, and have a lot to learn and have made and continue to make a lot of mistakes, I find it somewhat suprising that people are getting upset that I am inquiring as to people’s thoughts about how the super wealthy should be spending their money, should they have an opinon on that.

I have read many opinons on how the poor should be spending their time (and money, if they had any). Yet no one has an opinion on how the super elite rich people should be spending their money.

And this has nothing to do with ‘Catholic’ people, it has to do with super rich who are in a position to shape the opinions of the masses, etc.

Where is all this resistance coming from when there was so little when discussing welfare people and homeless people, etc? I simply don’t get it. Can someone please use plain language to explain to me why it’s OK to discuss at great lenght the lives of the poor and homelss and not the lives of the super elite rich in society?

That would be helpful

God Bless,
Bill

 

[Corki]

Can you share a little about him? I would be very interested in learning about him as from what you are saying he would be someone that I would love to know about and see if there are aspects of the way he lived his life that I might learn from and model myeslf after to the extent I could.

God Bless,
Bill

His father died when he was very young. He grew up mostly in an orphanage in Michigan. He was greatly influenced by the sisters who ran the orphange. He considered the priesthood and served in the military. After the military, while a student at Michigan, he and his brother borrowed money to start a pizza business. The pizza business is Dominos. He lived pretty well with his Dominos income but then became more serious about his faith, got rid of a lot of his possessions, built a chapel in his house and (reportedly) joined Opus Dei.

Fast forward, He sold Dominos for around a billion dollars, started the Ave Maria Foundation with a good chunk of the money. The foundation’s resources are targeted at aleviating poverty - especially in Latin America. He also started Legatus, which is a group of rich Catholics who use thier money to support the Church. He started Ave Maria Radio, the Thomas Moore Law Center and eventually Ave Maria University.

He has publically promised to spend all of whatever remains of the $1B on other charitable causes.

 

[Bill_7154]

I am often reminded of a homily I heard a few weeks back in not coveting thy neighbors wealth. The bible as well teaches to give while so many unfortunately believe they have a right to take.

That and the rich already pay the vast bulk of taxes in America

The Bible teaches many things, does it not? And it’s not news to me that (I’m not so sure that ‘the rich’ in MY definition of rich pays the buld of taxes in the USA) the middle class, upper middle class, and upper classes pay the bulk of taxes in America.

I am not takin about those classes of people at all and think I made that perfectly clear in my op.

I’m inqiring about the uber elite class, the one in 10 million (give or take 10-20 million, I have no idea of the population of the USA.

And the reason I spoke of people of religion in my op and not simply people of extreme wealth is because I think there can be made a moral argument for people of religion to donate to charity, where athiests (may, but do not necessarilly come from a place where dontating to charity is encouraged). But I am certainly interested in what athiest billionaires do with their money as well.

And again, I have read numerous post scrutinizing the poor and what they do with their money.

Given to them via the government process. And one poster essentially said I was a bad Catholic for disrespecting government, for holding it in contempt and distrusting us. Quoting Catholic teaching that Gov’t was put here for us Catholics to follow (paraphasing). If this is true, should poeple be questioning the way the poor get their money or spend it so long as they are following the laws?

I didn’t want to take this discussion here, but since people repeatedly are showing such resistance to engaging in a simple discussion as to what may or may not be good ways for the super wealthy to spend their money (and the only reason I specified those of religion was because I assumed that people of religion have at least as some part of their life a suggested moral obligation where people who are athiests may personally see some moral obligation, it does not come from God or any Church).

God Bless,
Bill