The End of Pornography?

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Amber Lux,

Wouldn’t you think the great art, let’s say in Italy, such as ‘David’ a nude statue, and others, are of a different level than what we describe is pornographic?

There is such a thing as great art, that does use nude models, but the overall effect is admiration of the creation of a person vs the depiction of a person as simply a sex object.
 
The issue is how porn is defined.

Erotica has always been around. Even immortalized.

The vocabulary used to describe the work is what is critical.

Amber
No, pornography is imagery which is designed to incite lust. That is the objective definition.

The Church teaches that erotic love is one of three forms of love. Erotic love is love which takes and does not give. It uses the one who is desired for the benefit of the one who desires, without thought of what is good for the one who desires. Erotic love is use of another human being for one’s own benefit. It appropriates the other for the benefit of self. Pope John Paul II taught that to use another human being for your own benefit is the exact opposite of love.

Pornography does not glorify God. It does not teach us anything about the beauty of God’s creation and the gift of our bodies which he has given to us. It teaches us to satisfy our desires at the expense of others. That is the definition of lust, and the defintion of pornography.

And contraception is a major enabler of our ability to use other people for our own pleasure. Contraception teaches society that it is OK to use another human being for our own pleasure without thought to the benefit of that person. Contraception takes lust out of the mind and allows it to be put into practice without immediate consequence. Contraception has taught out society to obey it’s most primitive urges, urges which Adam and Eve did not have when they were in the garden, naked and without shame, before sin entered the world. We have learned to obey every primitive and base urge, to satisfy every desire, and like overeaters, or alcoholics, or those addicted to the thrill of gambling, we can’t help ourselves.

And this society of immediate gratification of every sexual urge, the society of recreational sex, has created an insatiable demand for abortion, pornography, men’s clubs, prostitution, homosexuality, and child molestation. Even priests are not immune. And he results of all this are obvious. 1.5 million children butchered. The porn industry chews up women and spits them out. STD is on the rise. And Planned Parenthood is funded by the same government which is sworn to protect and defend the people.

Get rid of contraception and the demand for pornography and abortion all but dries up within one or two generations. Yea, there will always be a demand, but it will be severely impacted. Contraception is the root cause. The OP has asked a vitally important question.

-Tim-
 
No, pornography is imagery which is designed to incite lust. That is the objective definition.

…]

Get rid of contraception and the demand for pornography and abortion all but dries up within one or two generations. Yea, there will always be a demand, but it will be severely impacted. Contraception is the root cause. The OP has asked a vitally important question.

-Tim-
Grace & Peace!

Timothy, there is a lot in your post with which I whole-heartedly agree, but there are other things in it which I think need to be treated with more nuance.

Pornography does not create in us desires that are not already there. What pornography does, which is so insidious, is to claim to represent the good desire we do have most fully and completely. The moment that we claim this representation of our desire to be our desire is the moment we are alienated us from our own good desire in such a way that what we desire and how we desire it both become objects to be consumed.

And let’s be clear, eros is not evil. Classically defined, it is the love of the low for the high, a love which moves us outside of ourselves and towards a goodness which we gratuitously desire, which gratuitously gifts itself to us and which we joyfully receive as a good gift. Our love of the good, the true, the beautiful is necessarily erotic. Our love for Christ is necessarily erotic (read the poetry of John of the Cross, or the Song of Solomon for proof of this Holy Eros). Our desire for intimacy with what is good, true, and beautiful is a good desire. Our desire for intimacy with Christ is a good desire–the best desire.

But an eros which ceases to move us outside of ourselves is an eros that ceases to recognize the gratuitous gift of goodness and refuses to receive it as a gift, seeking instead to appropriate the good to itself not as a gift freely given, but as a thing to be consumed. Our good desire becomes disordered thereby. Our eros becomes self- and not other-oriented. It becomes a kind of narcissism. It becomes in us a root of sin.

In short, the difference between a Holy Eros and an unholy lust is in whether or not the desire moves us outside of ourselves and purely for the sake of the gratuitous goodness, truth and beauty of what is good, true and beautiful. That is Holy Eros. Lust is purely appropriative, self-centered and alienating.

Ending the availability of contraception will not make pornography go away. These days, our culture is profoundly pornographic, and perhaps not only in the way you might expect. If I remember correctly, the Greek word porneia carried with it a sense of the commercializing of desire: desire that you pay for. Which is to say: a desire that appropriates is porneia. You don’t need websites, magazines and DVDs to be deeply involved in porneia, nor does a lack of contraception mean that sexual desire will cease to be appropriative or self-centered. Our consumer culture is fundamentally pornographic. The way we consume world events (the number of news outlets which speak of “my news” is incredibly troubling) is fundamentally pornographic. A lack of contraception will not suddenly rectify the disastrous relationship we have to ourselves and to our world which is at the root of our pornographic, acquisitive and poisonous culture.

Because pornography is not a catalyst of bad desire, but the most obvious symptom of a disease of desire, of a social illness which masquerades as a greater social good: the belief that we should get what we want, that we’re important or exceptional in and of ourselves, that the customer is always right, that we deserve a break today. It is a disease which leads to an extremely individualistic and atomized society, which sees the good as determined by the needs and desires of an autonomous, self-generating (thefore highly illusory, mind you!) Selfhood/Individuality. It is the empire of relativism writ large. Using legislation or the political process to cure this illness is doomed from the start–the political process is deeply infected already. There is no salvation, as the Psalmist says, in the horse or its rider–armies, kings, judges, legislatures, institutions, bureaucracies cannot produce the peace which passeth all understanding. You cannot legislate the Kingdom of the God of Love into existence.

The only cure is simple: the self-giving, self-emptying, other-oriented, unconditional love of God. Our call is to love, but it is also to receive the gratuitous love of God which is, by nature, salutary. The more that we open ourselves to that love by grace, the more it teaches us how to be open to it, the more it shapes us into pure vessels of love, true images of itself, reforming our desires, and the more it moves through us to others. This is part of that Kingdom which the world cannot give us, a Kingdom which looks like the beautiful Body of God, of which we are called to be members.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
 
Wouldn’t you think the great art, let’s say in Italy, such as ‘David’ a nude statue, and others, are of a different level than what we describe is pornographic?
Compare “The Three Graces”, with the photography in Penthouse.

Compare the contents of the Japanese anime with the contents of Hustler.

There is the guy that was convicted of kiddie porn, for showing how to scan a fully clothed boy from a magazine, reduce the clothes to a nude body, and draw in the appropriate features. No change in posture, or facial expression of the boy model.

All of which I said that the issue is how one defines porn.
No, pornography is imagery which is designed to incite lust. That is the objective definition.
Somewhere in The Happy Hooker, Xaviera Hollander states that sex is a mental thing, not a physical thing. What provokes lust in one individual, provokes the antithesis of love in another individual.

“Designed to incite lust” is extremely subjective. You’d have to ask the content creator if that was either a primary, or secondary purpose in creating the content.

Amber
 
Compare “The Three Graces”, with the photography in Penthouse.

Compare the contents of the Japanese anime with the contents of Hustler.

There is the guy that was convicted of kiddie porn, for showing how to scan a fully clothed boy from a magazine, reduce the clothes to a nude body, and draw in the appropriate features. No change in posture, or facial expression of the boy model.

All of which I said that the issue is how one defines porn.

Somewhere in The Happy Hooker, Xaviera Hollander states that sex is a mental thing, not a physical thing. What provokes lust in one individual, provokes the antithesis of love in another individual.

“Designed to incite lust” is extremely subjective. You’d have to ask the content creator if that was either a primary, or secondary purpose in creating the content.

Amber
The definition of pornography I am referring to is any picture, video or literature that objectifies a person for the sole purpose of insighting sexually arousing thoughts and/or actions.
 
Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!
I appreciate your post Mark, and you have given me much to think about.

Much of my posts on the subject are perhaps over-simplified or not as nuanced (as you put it) as they should be, but I write that way given the medium we use, short posts on a message board, to get the general gist of my idea across.

I agree, elimination of contraception will not solve the problem entirely. Lust existed long before condoms could be purchased at WalMart.

The only thing I would caution, is your statement that pornography is not a catalyst, but a symptom. As one who was addicted for 33 years, I can tell you that once you start, the desire is insatiable. I believe it to be both a symptom and a catalyst - that is what makes it so incideous.

Thanks for taking the time to write up your post. Well thought out and lucid. The “We deserve a break today” comment made me laugh out loud and I agree with you that we cannot legislate what only God can do. That is my personal experience. I quit cocaine, pot, cigarettes, but could not shake porn. God did that for me. It was all God. But we can help people not get into it in the first place.

-Tim-
 
Somewhere in The Happy Hooker, Xaviera Hollander states that sex is a mental thing, not a physical thing. What provokes lust in one individual, provokes the antithesis of love in another individual.
Taking moral direction from a postitute is, I believe, ill advised.

-Tim-
 
Hi,

I was in the middle of a contraception vs. abstinence debate on a different thread that has since been closed.

I never got a reply from them and got to thinking…

Where would pornography be without contraception?

THOUGHTS?
Still present.

Check it out:
foxnews.com/world/2011/11/06/publisher-owned-by-catholic-church-reportedly-selling-porn-novels/

Publisher Owned by Catholic Church Reportedly Selling Porn Novels
Published November 06, 2011


A publishing house owned by the Catholic Church has been selling thousands of pornographic novels, The Independent reports.

The news, reportedly first revealed in the publishing-industry newsletter Buchreport, relates to Weltbild, Germany’s largest bookseller after Amazon and wholly owned by the Catholic Church.

Buchreport revealed that Weltbild’s massive assortment of titles available to customers online includes some 2,500 “erotic” books with lewd titles. The publisher’s website also pictures the titles’ lascivious dust jackets that feature color photographs of scantily clad women in high heels and erotic underwear, according to the newspaper.

On Friday, Carel Haff, Weltbild’s managing director, was quoted as saying that the revelations had provoked “a very intense and critical dialogue” within the company. He said discussions were under way about possibly limiting the assortment of titles that would be available in the future.

Catholic bishops responded with a statement claiming that “a filtering system failure” at the publishing house had allowed the books to stray on to the market. “We will put a stop to the distribution of possibly pornographic content in future,” they said.

But Bernhard Müller, editor of the Catholic magazine PUR, dismissed the clerics’ reaction as grossly hypocritical. He alleged that the pornography scandal at Weltbild had been going on for at least a decade with the Church’s full knowledge. Müller said that in 2008, a group of concerned Catholics had sent bishops a 70-page document containing irrefutable evidence that Weltbild published books that promoted pornography, Satanism and magic. They demanded that the publisher withdraw the titles.

The Catholic Church tried to sell Weltbild in 2009. But the bishops apparently abandoned the idea after they failed to get the price they were asking.
 
Some porn includes a fetish for getting impregnated. 🤷 Could be a make believe fetish though.
 
Still present.

Check it out:
foxnews.com/world/2011/11/06/publisher-owned-by-catholic-church-reportedly-selling-porn-novels/

Publisher Owned by Catholic Church Reportedly Selling Porn Novels
Published November 06, 2011
FoxNews.com

A publishing house owned by the Catholic Church has been selling thousands of pornographic novels, The Independent reports.

The news, reportedly first revealed in the publishing-industry newsletter Buchreport, relates to Weltbild, Germany’s largest bookseller after Amazon and wholly owned by the Catholic Church.

Buchreport revealed that Weltbild’s massive assortment of titles available to customers online includes some 2,500 “erotic” books with lewd titles. The publisher’s website also pictures the titles’ lascivious dust jackets that feature color photographs of scantily clad women in high heels and erotic underwear, according to the newspaper.

On Friday, Carel Haff, Weltbild’s managing director, was quoted as saying that the revelations had provoked “a very intense and critical dialogue” within the company. He said discussions were under way about possibly limiting the assortment of titles that would be available in the future.

Catholic bishops responded with a statement claiming that “a filtering system failure” at the publishing house had allowed the books to stray on to the market. “We will put a stop to the distribution of possibly pornographic content in future,” they said.

But Bernhard Müller, editor of the Catholic magazine PUR, dismissed the clerics’ reaction as grossly hypocritical. He alleged that the pornography scandal at Weltbild had been going on for at least a decade with the Church’s full knowledge. Müller said that in 2008, a group of concerned Catholics had sent bishops a 70-page document containing irrefutable evidence that Weltbild published books that promoted pornography, Satanism and magic. They demanded that the publisher withdraw the titles.

The Catholic Church tried to sell Weltbild in 2009. But the bishops apparently abandoned the idea after they failed to get the price they were asking.
Does the article you posted have anything to do with your answer? Or are you just trying to smear the Catholic Church? This article says nothing about the connection between contraception and porn, just that there is a presence of porn.
 
Without contraception pornographers will just be more careful when they are filming scenes and women would be paid more for their work to counteract a greater chance of pregnancy. Perhaps you can make the case that because of the greater cost to produce a lessor amount of free pornography will hit the internet. But then again they generate so much money without even charging for content I don’t think so.
 
Free porn will always exist, as long as piracy exists. Only thing that could help curb it is if the law cracked down on it like they did with music.
 
Does the article you posted have anything to do with your answer? Or are you just trying to smear the Catholic Church? This article says nothing about the connection between contraception and porn, just that there is a presence of porn.
Loll! Can’t you see the connection to the initial question?

Isn’t the Catholic Church against contraceptives?

Yet they support porn by publishing it- so yep porn would still be present without contraceptives.
 
The story is misleading. The company may be partnered by the diocese of Germany and have board members from 14 of the diocese but the company itself is run by humans, not God.

The Church does not support the printing and distributing of pornography.
 
for the sole purpose of insighting sexually arousing thoughts and/or actions.
Then you have to ask the artist what the purpose of the art they created is.
If they are deceased, the default is “for the sole purpose of inciting sexually arousing thoughts and actions”.

You have to apply that to everything from Venus of Willendorf to The Last Supper to Swan Lake to Red Dwarf to Howl to Waltzing Matilda to Ipi Tombi to La nausée.

Amber
 
So many years ago, a ‘federal’ judge, if I recall correctly, said, “I know pornography when I see it”.

I can see a big difference between works of art and porn.

The porn industry said it knew it was winning when sex began to be separated from the conception of a child.

And that today we witness all the time women having unsafe abortions.
 
Schaick,

Obviously, this selling of porn is a reflection both of the individuals involved, and a disconnect in the Catholic leadership of not doing their job. The individual ecclesiastics not thoroughly monitoring their connections obviously has brought them scandal.

But to say the Catholic Church supports backroom pornography is not true.

It goes back to understanding the nature of the Church…
 
Schaick,

Obviously, this selling of porn is a reflection both of the individuals involved, and a disconnect in the Catholic leadership of not doing their job. The individual ecclesiastics not thoroughly monitoring their connections obviously has brought them scandal.

But to say the Catholic Church supports backroom pornography is not true.

It goes back to understanding the nature of the Church…
This sounds like greed to me:
The Catholic Church tried to sell Weltbild in 2009. But the bishops apparently abandoned the idea after they failed to get the price they were asking.
 
Schaick,

Obviously, this selling of porn is a reflection both of the individuals involved, and a disconnect in the Catholic leadership of not doing their job. The individual ecclesiastics not thoroughly monitoring their connections obviously has brought them scandal.

But to say the Catholic Church supports backroom pornography is not true.

It goes back to understanding the nature of the Church…
Yes, clearly there is nothing in Church doctrine that supports this.
However, at what point should people expect Church leadership to be in allignment with Church doctrine?
 
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