The end of Protestantism

[spedteacherita]

Let’s say that there’s someone who says Amen! to all of the above verses, and has been baptized in the trinitarian formula, accepted Christ as his savior, but participates in this:

http://forums.catholic-questions.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=20222&d=1403872669

is he still assured of heaven?

Silly me. That does sound like it doesn’t it? No, of course not. The road to heaven is narrow and not all will be there, of course. But Christ died for all, did He not?

Those who live a life pleasing to Christ (and agrees with those verses, has been baptized and accepts Christ) will reflect Him with the fruits of the Spirit:

Galatians 5:22-23

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

God bless!

 

[PRmerger]

As your Pope said, who am I to judge?

Well, the position that’s being espoused by some here is that someone who is a professed Christian is** assured of heaven.**

So that is indeed judging, is it not?

 

[Jon_S_1]

How did you come to that conclusion?

Edit

A few years ago my pastor told the story of when he went to visit two prospective members, whom he discovered were a ‘married’ homosexual couple who were interested in our church. My pastor explained they were welcome but if they were uh, uncelibate or demonstrative, they really should not take Communion.

We are called to be holy. That does not mean we have arrived.

We have been declared holy. That does not mean it is totally worked out.

There are standards.

And ANOTHER Edit

We actually are in easy driving distance of that fun-loving group of people which means that we are probably more aware of them than most. I am not sure exactly what they believe about assurance. I don’t know if they know, either.

Wayne Gudrem, reformed, wrote a systematic theology in which he basically said that if you really wanted to know whether you were saved, take a brutally honest look at your life: are you growing in charity? Interested in the things of God more than those of the world? He had a list. Where were you five years ago, and where are you now?

Who are you to judge?

Or do you judge? By what standard do you judge the parameters of Christianity?

 

[PRmerger]

Silly me. That does sound like it doesn’t it? No, of course not. The road to heaven is narrow and not all will be there, of course. But Christ died for all, did He not?

Indeed, He did.

But no one has the absolute assurance that upon his death he is destined for heaven.

Those who live a life pleasing to Christ (and agrees with those verses, has been baptized and accepts Christ) will reflect Him with the fruits of the Spirit:

Galatians 5:22-23

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

God bless!

This is how Catholics profess we are saved:

Here’s how Catholics believe we are saved:

By believing in Christ (Jn 3:16; Acts 16:31)

By repentance (Acts 2:38; 2 Pet 3:9)

By baptism (Jn 3:5; 1 Pet 3:21; Titus 3:5)

By eating his flesh and drinking his blood (Jn 6)

By the work of the Spirit (Jn 3:5; 2 Cor 3:6)

By declaring with our mouths (Lk 12:8; Rom 10:9)

By coming to a knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4; Heb 10:26)

By works (Rom 2:6-7; James 2:24)

By grace (Acts 15:11; Eph 2:8)

By his blood (Rom 5:9; Heb 9:22)

By his righteousness (Rom 5:17; 2 Pet 1:1)

By keeping the commandments (Matt 19:17)

By our words (Matt 12:37)

By feeding the hungry and clothing the naked (Matt: 25:42)

 

[Thorolfr]

Well, any way you want to call it–the becoming clean is what purgatory is.

And that means you believe in purgatory too.

Actually I don’t believe in purgatory. Jesus says in John 14:1-3:

“1 Do not let your hearts be troubled. Believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, so that where I am, there you may be also."

Jesus doesn’t say, “I’m going to prepare a place for you but you’ll have to stay in a halfway house for a while first.” As for that sentence in Revelations, Luther didn’t like Revelations very much anyway and wanted to remove it from the canon.

 

[PRmerger]

Actually I don’t believe in purgatory.

Then can you explain how your soul gets cleansed between death and standing before the Eternal Godhead?

If you have thought a nasty thought today…your soul is dingy.

(You here is a rhetorical you. Not a personal you.)

As CS Lewis so trenchantly wrote: “Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they? Even if God doesn’t mind people entering heaven dripping with mud and slime, should we not reply, I’d rather be cleansed first,’ even if it may hurt?”

 

[Jon_S_1]

Actually I don’t believe in purgatory. Jesus says in John 14:1-3:

“1 Do not let your hearts be troubled. Believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, so that where I am, there you may be also."

Jesus doesn’t say, “I’m going to prepare a place for you but you’ll have to stay in a halfway house for a while first.” As for that sentence in Revelations, Luther didn’t like Revelations very much anyway and wanted to remove it from the canon.

Do do we retain our sin nature in heaven? Do we have pain and disease?

 

[czarlazar]

We, too, say that it is a mystery. Just that the mystery has a name: purgatory.

And you believe that our souls need purgation, right?

Nothing unclean can enter heaven.
And if there’s a wee bit of dirt on our souls…it needs to be…

purged.

How this happens is a mystery. We are agreed.

That it needs to happen, we agree also.

See?

Who am I to try to understand the infinite wisdom of God with my small mind and start naming things that is a mystery. It has been a mystery for 2000 years, why try to change it now? This constant need to explain everything in every detail is what gets the Western Churches all tied up in these endless theories and legalistic viewpoints and doctrines. There is not purgatory as far as I am concerned, and what if anything happens, is a mystery to me.

 

[czarlazar]

Really?

Let’s say you are an absolute lover of Christ, just went to confession, then come to the CAFs and make a little snarky remark–let’s say you make fun of an atheist who makes a glaring error here–and then you die unexpectedly. You think you would go to hell for that one little snarky comment? Hell? Eternal fire away from the love of God?

(Understood that you say there’s the possibility of God’s mercy…but you say that “you are probably screwed”. Really?)

mystery.

 

[PRmerger]

Who am I to try to understand the infinite wisdom of God with my small mind and start naming things that is a mystery. It has been a mystery for 2000 years, why try to change it now? This constant need to explain everything in every detail is what gets the Western Churches all tied up in these endless theories and legalistic viewpoints and doctrines. There is not purgatory as far as I am concerned, and what if anything happens, is a mystery to me.

But you do understand that your soul needs to be cleansed before entering heaven.

We are agreed on that, yes?

“Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they? Even if God doesn’t mind people entering heaven dripping with mud and slime, should we not reply, I’d rather be cleansed first,’ even if it may hurt?”–CS Lewis

Imagine the most beautiful sanctuary in the world. Would you enter dripping with mud and slime?

I think we must understand how horribly dirty sin is.
And we must also grasp how utterly numinous and infeffable the Eternal Godhead is.

The 2 points don’t compute together.

Unless you accept purgatory.

Even a snarky thought, right before death, must be purged from our souls.

 

[czarlazar]

But you do understand that your soul needs to be cleansed before entering heaven.

We are agreed on that, yes?

“Our souls demand purgatory, don’t they? Even if God doesn’t mind people entering heaven dripping with mud and slime, should we not reply, I’d rather be cleansed first,’ even if it may hurt?”–CS Lewis

cleansed ? sounds like I have to drop my soul off at the one hour dry cleaner place after i die. I would say that if you have sin, you are probably screwed. But with enough faith and prayers, maybe in God’s love, you have a chance.
A mystery.

 

[PRmerger]

mystery.

Mystery doesn’t mean you don’t answer. Or you don’t know.

All it means is that you can’t fully comprehend all of the truths of that reality.

So you still need to answer how it is that a dripping, slimy, muddy soul that loves Jesus can stand before the Most Holy Tabernacle.

How does it happen?

You know the answer:

it is purged clean through the atoning blood of Christ.

#thatispurgatory
#whetheryoucallitthatornot

 

[czarlazar]

Mystery doesn’t mean you don’t answer. Or you don’t know.

All it means is that you can’t fully comprehend all of the truths of that reality.

So you still need to answer how it is that a dripping, slimy, muddy soul that loves Jesus can stand before the Most Holy Tabernacle.

How does it happen?

It happens through 1) Confession 2) prayers

 

[PRmerger]

cleansed ? sounds like I have to drop my soul off at the one hour dry cleaner place after i die. I would say that if you have sin, you are probably screwed. But with enough faith and prayers, maybe in God’s love, you have a chance.
A mystery.

And that soul is cleansed through…the mystery of purgatory.

Even if you don’t call it that.

You know that it has to happen for you to enter into the Holy of Holies.

It. Has. To. Happen.

Nothing unclean can enter heaven.

 

[Jon_S_1]

Who am I to try to understand the infinite wisdom of God with my small mind and start naming things that is a mystery. It has been a mystery for 2000 years, why try to change it now? This constant need to explain everything in every detail is what gets the Western Churches all tied up in these endless theories and legalistic viewpoints and doctrines. There is not purgatory as far as I am concerned, and what if anything happens, is a mystery to me.

You have the word Eucharist right? You believe in the real presence? Why believe that? Why try to describe such a mystery…it’s just bread and wine and God does the rest…there are plenty of mysteries described in Orthodoxy…hello! The Trinity! The creeds!..you just accept them.

 

[Jon_S_1]

PRmerger;12899423:

Mystery doesn’t mean you don’t answer. Or you don’t know.

All it means is that you can’t fully comprehend all of the truths of that reality.

So you still need to answer how it is that a dripping, slimy, muddy soul that loves Jesus can stand before the Most Holy Tabernacle.

How does it happen?

It happens through 1) Confession 2) prayers

And the prayers of the faithful are for who? Souls in heaven? Souls in hell? Or souls being cleansed enroute to heaven.

 

[PRmerger]

It happens through 1) Confession 2) prayers

Except if you die, right after confession, thinking, “I hate that little doggie for peeing on my shoe!”

It’s a thought not worthy of heaven. Not deserving of hell either.

How do you enter heaven with that on your soul?

You know the answer!

You don’t want to call it what we call it.

And I’m fine with that.

You can call it Chopped Liver if you like.

But you believe in the process.

Or else you don’t believe in the dirtiness of sin (which I am certain you do).

Or you don’t believe in the Imperial Majesty of the Godhead (which I am certain you do.)

Thus, you believe in…

Chopped Liver/Purgatory.

 

[czarlazar]

You have the word Eucharist right? You believe in the real presence? Why believe that? Why try to describe such a mystery…it’s just bread and wine and God does the rest…there are plenty of mysteries described in Orthodoxy…you just accept them.

We don’t use the word “real presence” actually; it in fact is refereed to as a “mystery”.
And the Eucharist is an English word used for convenience; primarily for discussion, it is actually called *The Precious Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ *

 

[czarlazar]

czarlazar;12899432:

PRmerger;12899423:

Mystery doesn’t mean you don’t answer. Or you don’t know.

All it means is that you can’t fully comprehend all of the truths of that reality.

So you still need to answer how it is that a dripping, slimy, muddy soul that loves Jesus can stand before the Most Holy Tabernacle.

How does it happen?

And the prayers of the faithful are for who? Souls in heaven? Souls in hell? Or souls being cleansed enroute to heaven.

The answer would be the first two. Those are the only two options, when did we get this third option? Heaven - 1, Hell -2 and stop three ???

 

[czarlazar]

Except if you die, right after confession, thinking, “I hate that little doggie for peeing on my shoe!”

It’s a thought not worthy of heaven. Not deserving of hell either.

How do you enter heaven with that on your soul?

You know the answer!

You don’t want to call it what we call it.

And I’m fine with that.

You can call it Chopped Liver if you like.

But you believe in the process.

Or else you don’t believe in the dirtiness of sin (which I am certain you do).

Or you don’t believe in the Imperial Majesty of the Godhead (which I am certain you do.)

Thus, you believe in…

Chopped Liver/Purgatory.

My friend, don’t get yourself so worked up over this. Sin is sin…its the reason we strive for a sinless life and should visit confession often. I know this idea is convenient and maybe makes people feel better that if they die with this “little sin” they can still go somewhere and make it to heaven. But lets get real for a minute, this is all based on indulgences — this is where the idea came from. Purgatory is no more real than indulgences are.