P
PRmerger
Guest
Specifically, it has to do with their misinterpretation of Scripture–namely, Romans 3:23 which states “all have sinned”.
- Status
P
PRmerger
Guest
Your church doesn’t profess that it is true?
This is very Catholic. The Catholic Church professes that whenever someone professes truth, he joins with us as the Body of Christ.
L
LutheranScholar
Guest
Christ is the head of the Church and once somebody exalts himself to Christ’s place ( or is elected to do so), then the focus, however unintentionally, is put onto the person who claims Christ’s mantle for himself. Protestantism is here as a testimony that Christ is Head. Protestantism proclaims Christian Freedom, as can be seen in the denominations that now exist. To pray for the extinction of* any *Christian body simply because they do not follow one’s doctrine is the kind of Pride that fell Lucifer. St. Paul rejoiced that Christ was being proclaimed regardless of the motive of the proclaimer. Now, we’re being told that the Catholic Church has some sort of copyright ( why? It says it does, that’s why!) on declaring Christ. Your Mother Church does have issues that it would do well to address. Luther called for an Ecumenical Council to address the issues that not only concerned him, but the better part of Northern Europe at the time. Instead, Leo X anathematized him, declared him an outlaw and issued calls for his arrest and that of his followers. If they just had that Council at Mantua, perhaps a lot of bloodshed could have been avoided and unity maintained.
L
LutheranScholar
Guest
Our church simply proclaims the Gospel. Sure, it holds that it’s the proper heir of the early Christian Church ( which is why we bless ourselves and use the ancient liturgies), but as far as claiming that it’s the only one out there, that others are accursed if they don’t join us, well, no. We hold that *all *churches who proclaim the Word and correctly distribute the Sacraments are part of Christ’s Church and that includes the Catholics and Orthodox. We see ourselves as part of a larger Christian family.
P
PRmerger
Guest
But which Gospel, LS?
The one which states OSAS? The one that says divorce and re-marriage is adultery? The one which states baptism is simply an ordinance? The one which states that the Lord’s Day is the Sabbath?
Or is it the Gospel which your elders say is “true”?
If it’s the latter, then you’re doing exactly what you object to in the CC, stating that what she proclaims is true.
What is your church’s teaching on Muslims and others who don’t accept Christ as their savior?
L
LutheranScholar
Guest
Indeed, all* have *sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We hold holy Scriptures as true in every detail. God created the world in seven twenty- four hour periods, Jonah was swallowed by a fish and regurgitated on land. We hold that Jesus meant what He said when he took the Bread and said that " this is My Body," and when He said that " this cup is the new covenant in My Blood," that His Blood is really there, in, with and under the Bread and Wine. Symbolizing the plain and simple truth of the Bible is an error not confined to Catholicism. Including books of Scripture that weren’t universally accepted as canonical in the first place would lead to a relativizing of the truth. That is something we Confessional Lutherans do not do. That is an error that, apparently, the Reformed and Anabaptist groups also have inadvertently committed. Only the Holy Spirit ( which *does *reveal Himself to everyone who seeks Him), Who leads everyone to Faith can say why or how such a variety of theologies came to exist. I think that’s adiaphora. I believe that the Holy Spirit gives to each according to his/ her ability and the only one qualified to judge us is Jesus Himself.
L
LutheranScholar
Guest
L
LutheranScholar
Guest
OSAS is a heresy that is none of our business and therefore does not concern us. Holy Baptism is a Sacrament. The Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper gives us, together with the Body and Blood of Jesus, our own forgiveness. We worship on Sunday because that’s when the Lord was raised. Each Sunday is a Little Easter to us. We have a dim view of those who die without the Gospel of Christ. With the information available, Muslims and other non- Christians, outside of God’s grace, cannot be saved. We preach the Law for repentance and to make others aware of God’s wrath against sin. Once the Law is preached and one is aware of how utterly incapable we are of pleasing God on our own, then we offer the healing balm of the Gospel. God already did it all for us in Jesus. We preach Law and Gospel and* never *mingle the two. Do we claim that our president speaks for God? No, God is quite capable of speaking for Himself, which He does through Word and Sacrament.But which Gospel, LS?
The one which states OSAS? The one that says divorce and re-marriage is adultery? The one which states baptism is simply an ordinance? The one which states that the Lord’s Day is the Sabbath?
Or is it the Gospel which your elders say is “true”?
If it’s the latter, then you’re doing exactly what you object to in the CC, stating that what she proclaims is true.
What is your church’s teaching on Muslims and others who don’t accept Christ as their savior?
P
PRmerger
Guest
Really.
I hope no Muslim reads this and uses it to tell you: then, I suppose, you believe your Christ sinned.
He would have a valid point and you would have to say: well, yes, I suppose that I must admit then that this verse means that Jesus did sin. Eek!
S
smead2942
Guest
Amen:thumbsup:But which Gospel, LS?
The one which states OSAS? The one that says divorce and re-marriage is adultery? The one which states baptism is simply an ordinance? The one which states that the Lord’s Day is the Sabbath?
Or is it the Gospel which your elders say is “true”?
If it’s the latter, then you’re doing exactly what you object to in the CC, stating that what she proclaims is true.
What is your church’s teaching on Muslims and others who don’t accept Christ as their savior?
L
LutheranScholar
Guest
I needn’t say anything of the kind. If a Muslim reads this and tells me that I believe Christ sinned, I can just point him to the Scripture that says , " Christ was like us in all things, save without sin."
Jesus the Great High Priest
14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need. biblehub.com/hebrews/4-15.htm
P
PRmerger
Guest
Ah. So you DON’T take Romans 3:23 literally. “All” doesn’t mean “all”.
You understand it in the same way that Catholics do–“all” is a qualified “all”. There ARE some exceptions.
Also, can you answer the question I posed earlier about how your church views Muslims and others who have not accepted Christ as their savior? Are they accursed if they don’t join us?
L
LutheranScholar
Guest
My apologies, I thought I already did… very well, the short answer is “yes, they are damned if they are not led to faith in Christ.” I will qualify* that *by saying " according to our faith." We are not qualified to say whom God will save and who will effectively damn themselves by not following Him. He wants us all to be saved. Our ideas of the elect are those who God has predestined to salvation ( none are predestined to damnation. That’s something people do on their own).Ah. So you DON’T take Romans 3:23 literally. “All” doesn’t mean “all”.
You understand it in the same way that Catholics do–“all” is a qualified “all”. There ARE some exceptions.
Also, can you answer the question I posed earlier about how your church views Muslims and others who have not accepted Christ as their savior? Are they accursed if they don’t join us?
L
LutheranScholar
Guest
Off to lunch ( and a little drive out in the country). My prayer will be, once the dust settles and we all realize that while we’re arguing about the best way to praise and glorify Jesus, we remember that living for Him is the important part… God bless you all and thank you for having me energize my brain cells. I’m seeing more points of convergence than variables among us anyway, Protestant or Catholic. Surely the Holy Spirit has *something *to do with that…
I’m seeing more points of convergence than variables among us anyway, Protestant or Catholic. Surely the Holy Spirit has *something *to do with that…
P
PRmerger
Guest
I see, then.
So you permit for your church that which you object to in my Church?
Why is that?
P
PRmerger
Guest
Off to lunch ( and a little drive out in the country). My prayer will be, once the dust settles and we all realize that while we’re arguing about the best way to praise and glorify Jesus, we remember that living for Him is the important part… God bless you all and thank you for having me energize my brain cells.
L
LutheranScholar
Guest
So, I never actually said that Catholics would be wrong if they said non- Christians would be damned apart from faith in Christ. I never said that Catholics would be damned if they did not join a Protestant church. I did say that Catholicism has serious departures from Biblical faith and the only way they seem to justify that is by saying that because the Catholic Church says the Catholic Church is the One True Church, all other Christians must join said Church. So, by deflecting the conversation from Christian relating to Christian, Protestant relating to Catholic, to Christian relating to non Christian and then swerving around and then saying " why can you say that non- Christians are damned, but we can’t say Protestants are damned?" Protestants are Christian, so the question makes no sense. Asking why I would permit something for my church that I wouldn’t permit for yours is just so ironic, it’s laughable. The Protestants have been singing fraternity and acceptance while the Catholics have been calling out " heretic!" and insisting that we all must be absorbed into your church. Nowhere have I seen a single Protestant, online or in real life, questing the right of the Catholic Church to exist, yet here I’ve seen polemic after polemic calling for the extinction of Protestantism. Why grant the right to exist to your own church while you would deny it to mine?
A
aidanbradypop
Guest
Well said
P
PRmerger
Guest
But what you did say was that it was wrong for the CC to say that anyone is damned apart from their (our) faith.
(Let’s set aside the fact that it’s not even the teaching of the Church to say people are damned apart from our faith. We’ll just concede it here for the argument).
So let me understand this: you are ok with a church damning others for not having faith in Christ, but NOT ok with a Church damning others for not having faith in Catholicism?
Is that a correct assessment of your position?
S
steido01
Guest
If this is what LS meant, then I think they misunderstand the Catholic position.
Thank you, as always, for your willingness to engage in discussion. Instead, might you explain to us what the Catholic Church does teach? I’ve got a feeling we all might be closer than we think.
Lutherans are never ok with a church damning others. Ever. Lutheranism, unlike Calvinism, has been consistent in distancing itself from double-predestination. The church can never declare someone to be damned, for the church does not know nor bind the mind of God. What we do know is that Christ said he was the Way, the Truth, and the Life and that no one comes to the Father but through Him. Are there multiple ways to Christ? Not that He’s revealed to humanity. I think that’s all that LS was trying to say.
- Status