The end of Protestantism

[PRmerger]

Thank you, as always, for your willingness to engage in discussion. Instead, might you explain to us what the Catholic Church does teach? I’ve got a feeling we all might be closer than we think.

Indeed.

The Church teaches exactly what LS was professing: without Christ you cannot be saved.

And we only have Christ because we have His Body, the Catholic Church.

There is no other way, between heaven and earth, that you or I can be saved except that we accept what was given to us by His Body, the CC.

 

[LutheranScholar]

But what you did say was that it was wrong for the CC to say that anyone is damned apart from their (our) faith.

(Let’s set aside the fact that it’s not even the teaching of the Church to say people are damned apart from our faith. We’ll just concede it here for the argument).

So let me understand this: you are ok with a church damning others for not having faith in Christ, but NOT ok with a Church damning others for not having faith in Catholicism?

Is that a correct assessment of your position?

Correct. While the Catholic Church is the largest Christian Church in the world today, it’s no longer the only one. I say that the Holy Spirit is not limited by denominational labels, be it Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Anglican, Mennonite, Evangelical, Orthodox, Baptist, Friend ( Quaker, if you like) or Congregationalist. I maintain that Christians and non- Christians alike can be found in all churches professing the honorable and noble title " Christian." The Holy Spirit brings people to faith and I say He meets them where they are and that regardless of label, He brings all who call upon the Name of Jesus Christ in Spirit and in Truth to Jesus. He transforms lives… sure, we are conceived and born in sin, it’s our common human heritage and He won’t stop us if we turn away from Him. That’s why I say we effectively damn ourselves. He’s still there waiting on us once we feel the full weight of the Law on our shoulders and we know we’re powerless apart from Him. Jesus Christ is the One in Whom our faith ultimately rests. We already are one Faith. Christianity is One Faith with Three branches… Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant. Of course I’m going to back my own team and vigorously defend the Church Home that the Holy Spirit has so graciously planted me in. Who wouldn’t? I’d expect Catholics to defend their faith as vigorously… would I expect an aggressive attack on another Christian communion? Not in 2015, no.

 

[LutheranScholar]

If this is what LS meant, then I think they misunderstand the Catholic position.

Thank you, as always, for your willingness to engage in discussion. Instead, might you explain to us what the Catholic Church does teach? I’ve got a feeling we all might be closer than we think.

Lutherans are never ok with a church damning others. Ever. Lutheranism, unlike Calvinism, has been consistent in distancing itself from double-predestination. The church can never declare someone to be damned, for the church does not know nor bind the mind of God. What we do know is that Christ said he was the Way, the Truth, and the Life and that no one comes to the Father but through Him. Are there multiple ways to Christ? Not that He’s revealed to humanity. I think that’s all that LS was trying to say.

Steido! Yes! Thank you! That’s ***exactly ***what I was trying to say! :extrahappy:

 

[PRmerger]

Indeed.

The Church teaches exactly what LS was professing: without Christ you cannot be saved.

And we only have Christ because we have His Body, the Catholic Church.

There is no other way, between heaven and earth, that you or I can be saved except that we accept what was given to us by His Body, the CC.

Let me tweak the above a bit: the normative way for anyone to be saved is through Christ, His Sacraments, given through His Body, the CC.

 

[PRmerger]

Correct.

Then I am astonished at the double standard.

"Lutherans get to tell people: you need to be a member of this Church (Christianity) in order to be saved!

But Catholics are intolerant when they tell people: you need to be a member of this Church (Catholicism) in order to be saved!"

This is absolutely unacceptable.

You don’t get to reserve for yourself what you object to in others.

While the Catholic Church is the largest Christian Church in the world today, it’s no longer the only one.

Sadly, this is true and definitely contrary to the will of Christ.

I say that the Holy Spirit is not limited by denominational labels, be it Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Anglican, Mennonite, Evangelical, Orthodox, Baptist, Friend ( Quaker, if you like) or Congregationalist.

What about the Westboro Baptist Church? Are they included in this group?

I’d expect Catholics to defend their faith as vigorously… would I expect an aggressive attack on another Christian communion? Not in 2015, no.

We are all here joining with you in objecting to any “aggressive attack on another Christian communion”, LS.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Then I am astonished at the double standard.

"Lutherans get to tell people: you need to be a member of this Church (Christianity) in order to be saved!

But Catholics are intolerant when they tell people: you need to be a member of this Church (Catholicism) in order to be saved!"

This is absolutely unacceptable.** We include Catholicism in Christianity. Why is* that ***unacceptable?

You don’t get to reserve for yourself what you object to in others.

I never tried to. You’re putting words in my mouth. By the way, Catholics are no more qualified than Lutherans to tell God who may or who may not get into heaven.

Sadly, this is true and definitely contrary to the will of Christ.

B]Obviously it isn’t because we still exist. Guess what? We always will. We’re not a heresy, but a people entrusted with the Holy Spirit. No decrees can ever take that away from us.

Maybe if Luther was granted his Council in Mantua as he requested in the first place, instead of being hunted like an animal, the separation need never have happened.

What about the Westboro Baptist Church? Are they included in this group?
If it still even exists, the obvious answer to that question is no.

We are all here joining with you in objecting to any “aggressive attack on another Christian communion”, LS.

It’s good that you’re also defending the Protestant faith from uncalled for attacks. It’s also good to see so many Catholics rushing to the defense of their separated brethren in Christ. Peter J. definitely deserves a positive shout- out.

 

[Memaw]

Indeed, all* have *sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. We hold holy Scriptures as true in every detail. God created the world in seven twenty- four hour periods, Jonah was swallowed by a fish and regurgitated on land. We hold that Jesus meant what He said when he took the Bread and said that " this is My Body," and when He said that " this cup is the new covenant in My Blood," that His Blood is really there, in, with and under the Bread and Wine. Symbolizing the plain and simple truth of the Bible is an error not confined to Catholicism. Including books of Scripture that weren’t universally accepted as canonical in the first place would lead to a relativizing of the truth. That is something we Confessional Lutherans do not do. That is an error that, apparently, the Reformed and Anabaptist groups also have inadvertently committed. Only the Holy Spirit ( which *does *reveal Himself to everyone who seeks Him), Who leads everyone to Faith can say why or how such a variety of theologies came to exist. I think that’s adiaphora. I believe that the Holy Spirit gives to each according to his/ her ability and the only one qualified to judge us is Jesus Himself.

If that’s true then how do you account for all the different interpretations. of Sacred Scripture? God Bless, Memaw

 

[PRmerger]

It’s good that you’re also defending the Protestant faith from uncalled for attacks. It’s also good to see so many Catholics rushing to the defense of their separated brethren in Christ. Peter J. definitely deserves a positive shout- out.

Would you mind not nesting your responses in my post, LS?

When I hit “quote”, only the above appears, rather than all of your responses, when you nest.

Thanks.

 

[steido01]

Then I am astonished at the double standard.

"Lutherans get to tell people: you need to be a member of this Church (Christianity) in order to be saved!

But Catholics are intolerant when they tell people: you need to be a member of this Church (Catholicism) in order to be saved!"
This is absolutely unacceptable.

I’m not sure this is what LS meant, and the poster can answer for himself… but I think the objection was that the Catholic view can come across as exclusionary even in its most pastoral application (which states that all non-Catholic Christian ecclesial communities, are actually [imperfectly] Catholic -see CCC 838), whereas the Lutheran view never excludes Catholics or other Christians, but instead acknowledges them to all be part of the invisible church which manifests itself quite visibly wherever Word is preached and the Sacraments administered. We each have a way of expressing overlapping and similar concepts. In this case, the Roman Catholic Church just uses unfortunate language in doing so. Don’t worry, we Lutherans have our fair share in other areas, too. But ours typically don’t involve doctrine.

You don’t get to reserve for yourself what you object to in others.

Well, at some level we must. Otherwise we’d all end up Ba’hai or UU.

What about the Westboro Baptist Church? Are they included in this group?

An interesting question. It’s my understanding that they do not baptize in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So the answer should be obvious.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Would you mind not nesting your responses in my post, LS?

When I hit “quote”, only the above appears, rather than all of your responses, when you nest.

Thanks.

My apologies. I’ll restate my views when I get back from work.

 

[Memaw]

Correct. While the Catholic Church is the largest Christian Church in the world today, it’s no longer the only one. I say that the Holy Spirit is not limited by denominational labels, be it Catholic, Lutheran, Presbyterian, Anglican, Mennonite, Evangelical, Orthodox, Baptist, Friend ( Quaker, if you like) or Congregationalist. I maintain that Christians and non- Christians alike can be found in all churches professing the honorable and noble title " Christian." The Holy Spirit brings people to faith and I say He meets them where they are and that regardless of label, He brings all who call upon the Name of Jesus Christ in Spirit and in Truth to Jesus. He transforms lives… sure, we are conceived and born in sin, it’s our common human heritage and He won’t stop us if we turn away from Him. That’s why I say we effectively damn ourselves. He’s still there waiting on us once we feel the full weight of the Law on our shoulders and we know we’re powerless apart from Him. Jesus Christ is the One in Whom our faith ultimately rests. We already are one Faith. Christianity is One Faith with Three branches… Catholic, Orthodox and Protestant. Of course I’m going to back my own team and vigorously defend the Church Home that the Holy Spirit has so graciously planted me in. Who wouldn’t? I’d expect Catholics to defend their faith as vigorously… would I expect an aggressive attack on another Christian communion? Not in 2015, no.

You oughta read some of the leaflets I find in Catholic books at a thrift store. Someone keeps putting them in there and the boss says he doesn’t know who is doing it.Comes from a place called “The Conversion Center” in Havertown, PA Makes me wonder if they believe in the 8th Commandment !! God Bless, Memaw

 

[PRmerger]

I’m not sure this is what LS meant, and the poster can answer for himself… but I think the objection was that the Catholic view can come across as exclusionary even in its most pastoral application (which states that all non-Catholic Christian ecclesial communities, are actually [imperfectly] Catholic -see CCC 838), whereas the Lutheran view never excludes Catholics or other Christians, but instead acknowledges them to all be part of the invisible church which manifests itself quite visibly wherever Word is preached and the Sacraments administered.

Point is, steido, that Lutherans exclude.

But some Lutherans here are objecting to the fact that Catholics exclude.

I object to this!

Either Lutherans should have no problem excluding (such as telling Muslims. "You must be a Christian in order to be saved!)

Or…

Lutherans should have no problem with Catholics excluding.

You can’t have it both ways: Lutherans get to exclude but Catholics don’t.

 

[PRmerger]

An interesting question. It’s my understanding that they do not baptize in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. So the answer should be obvious.

So, again, it’s acceptable to exclude others.

 

[aidanbradypop]

Ugh!

 

[Stilldreamn]

So, again, it’s acceptable to exclude others.

Only at our respective communion tables (we’re exclusive that way:thumbsup. God saves who He wills - sadly, He hasn’t provided assurance of any way except through Christ.

What He ultimately does with everybody here is pious speculation - in that way, WE don’t exclude, but He does. Chaff over here, wheat over there.

 

[PRmerger]

Only at our respective communion tables (we’re exclusive that way:thumbsup. God saves who He wills - sadly, He hasn’t provided assurance of any way except through Christ.

What He ultimately does with everybody here is pious speculation - in that way, WE don’t exclude, but He does. Chaff over here, wheat over there.

Very Catholic, this.

 

[steido01]

Point is, steido, that Lutherans exclude.

Nope. We invite non-Christians to Christianity.

But some Lutherans here are objecting to the fact that Catholics exclude.

I object to this!

I would join you in your objection, since, as I understand it, Catholics do not ‘exclude’ either. And that is my point. I think LS and you were talking a bit past each other.

Either Lutherans should have no problem excluding (such as telling Muslims. "You must be a Christian in order to be saved!)

Or…

Lutherans should have no problem with Catholics excluding.

You can’t have it both ways: Lutherans get to exclude but Catholics don’t.

I’m not sure there is any exclusion going on, on either side. Simply proclamation of what each understands to be Truth. When the Lutheran recites that very, very, very long Creed on Trinity Sunday, “He who desires to be saved must, above all hold the catholic faith…” He means very nearly the same thing as does the Catholic.

The Lutheran considers the Catholic, by virtue of Baptism, to be Christian, though suffering from impure doctrine. LCMS
The Catholic considers the Lutheran, by virtue of Baptism, to be Catholic, though suffering from improper church. CCC-838

Neither ‘excludes,’ and both acknowledge the other, through Baptism, as being part of the one, holy catholic/Catholic and apostolic church/Church.

 

[Stilldreamn]

Very Catholic, this.

Indeed. Your plan has worked well. Also, I admire your .gifs]

 

[PRmerger]

Nope. We invite non-Christians to Christianity.

And Catholics invite non-Catholics to Catholicism.

I would join you in your objection, since, as I understand it, Catholics do not ‘exclude’ either. And that is my point. I think LS and you were talking a bit past each other.

Actually, I don’t think we were.

I think he was reserving for himself and his church what he objects to in Catholicism: namely, the right to exclude others.

 

[LutheranScholar]

If that’s true then how do you account for all the different interpretations. of Sacred Scripture? God Bless, Memaw

People are approached by the Holy Spirit according to their own understanding? The only interpretation of Scripture I can really account for is my own.