The end of Protestantism

[LutheranScholar]

I don’t think the conversation is about “right to exist” . Anyone can come up with anything and say it is Christian…Westboro baptists?? That doesn’t mean it is Christian.

So the real question is…does someone have the right to create a division in the Church?

1 Corinthians 1:10-13

I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Romans 16:17-18

I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

Titus 3:9-11

But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

Luke 11:17

But he, knowing their thoughts, said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and a divided household falls.

Ephesians 4:3-6

Eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

“I therefore did what belonged to me, as a man devoted to unity. For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop. I trust [as to you] in the grace of Jesus Christ, who shall free you from every bond. And I exhort you to do nothing out of strife, but according to the doctrine of Christ. When I heard some saying, If I do not find it in the ancient Scriptures, I will not believe the Gospel; on my saying to them, It is written, they answered me, That remains to be proved. But to me Jesus Christ is in the place of all that is ancient: His cross, and death, and resurrection, and the faith which is by Him, are undefiled monuments of antiquity; by which I desire, through your prayers, to be justified.”

-Ignatius of Antioch letter to the Philadelphians

“Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons.”

— St. Ignatius Of Antioch, Epistle to the Philadelphians, 3:2-4:1, 110 A.D.

Seems the answer is clear…

We are heirs of the early Church Fathers, too. Again, we don’t see ourselves as the schismatics. bookofconcord.org/testimonies.php

 

[steve_b]

You’re very correct Steve. I was simplifying for the ease of argument. Sorry if I was unclear. It would have been better had I clarified and said;

The Lutheran considers the Catholic, by virtue of Baptism, to be [essentially] Christian, though suffering from impure doctrine. LCMS

Excerpt (all emphasis mine)
“…to be a Church the community must be “legitimate”; they are legitimate when they are “united with their pastors”. What does this mean? In the first place, no one can make a Church by himself. A group cannot simply get together, read the New Testament and declare: “At present we are the Church because the Lord is present wherever two or three are gathered in His name”.The element of “receiving” belongs essentially to the Church, just as faith comes from “hearing” and is not the result of one’s decision or reflection. Faith is a converging with something I could neither imagine nor produce on my own; faith has to come to meet me. We call the structure of this encounter, a “Sacrament”. It is part of the fundamental form of a sacrament that it be received and not self-administered. No one can baptize himself. No one can ordain himself. No one can forgive his own sins. Perfect repentance cannot remain something interior—of its essence it demands the form of encounter of the Sacrament. This too is a result of a sacrament’s fundamental structure as an encounter [with Christ]…”
from https://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDFECCV2.HTM

Protrestantism regardless of stripe, is 100% manmade.
s:

The Catholic considers the Lutheran, by virtue of Baptism, to be in regards to salvation-issues, a certain sort of deficient] Catholic, suffering from improper , imperfect, and deficient] church. CCC-838

You’re still trying to make CCC-838 read what you want it to read.

here’s what the Church has always taught RE: salvation of those outside the Church.

Excerpts from the link that follows

“there are exceptions, and it is possible in some circumstances for people to be saved who have not been fully initiated into the Catholic Church (CCC 847).”

Re: (may achieve eternal salvation)

“may achieve eternal salvation” ≠ will, ≠ probably, May might only be a remote possibility. Example: If I say it may rain tomorrow, that’s not a very good prediction for rain.

"for those who knowingly and deliberately (that is, not out of innocent ignorance) commit the sins of heresy (rejecting divinely revealed doctrine) or schism (separating from the Catholic Church and/or joining a schismatic church), no salvation would be possible until they repented and returned to live in Catholic unity. "
http://www.catholic.com/tracts/salvation-outside-the-church

Re: ignorance and innocence, That last quote also harmonizes with CCC 1791
s:

My point is that, like Lutherans, Catholics also acknowledge a special, albeit imperfect, communion with their fellow Saints Militant of other denominations. This communion, however imperfect on earth, is made by the Holy Spirit through the Sacrament of Baptism.

Baptism is the beginning. It’s not the be all to end all, unless one dies right after baptism. The HS isn’t the author of all the confusion and division we see. Satan is the author of that.

Re: some definitions 2089

Once someone “knows” their status, in relation to the Catholic Church, then they are no longer innocently ignorant of the wrong they are in. Ignorance is no longer an escape for them.

Again,

1791 ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin." In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

 

[PRmerger]

I don’t think the conversation is about “right to exist” . Anyone can come up with anything and say it is Christian…Westboro baptists?? That doesn’t mean it is Christian.

So the real question is…does someone have the right to create a division in the Church?

1 Corinthians 1:10-13

I appeal to you, brothers, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and the same judgment. For it has been reported to me by Chloe’s people that there is quarreling among you, my brothers. What I mean is that each one of you says, “I follow Paul,” or “I follow Apollos,” or “I follow Cephas,” or “I follow Christ.” Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

Romans 16:17-18

I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naive.

Titus 3:9-11

But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless. As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.

Luke 11:17

But he, knowing their thoughts, said to them, “Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and a divided household falls.

Ephesians 4:3-6

Eager to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call— one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

“I therefore did what belonged to me, as a man devoted to unity. For where there is division and wrath, God does not dwell. To all them that repent, the Lord grants forgiveness, if they turn in penitence to the unity of God, and to communion with the bishop. I trust [as to you] in the grace of Jesus Christ, who shall free you from every bond. And I exhort you to do nothing out of strife, but according to the doctrine of Christ. When I heard some saying, If I do not find it in the ancient Scriptures, I will not believe the Gospel; on my saying to them, It is written, they answered me, That remains to be proved. But to me Jesus Christ is in the place of all that is ancient: His cross, and death, and resurrection, and the faith which is by Him, are undefiled monuments of antiquity; by which I desire, through your prayers, to be justified.”

-Ignatius of Antioch letter to the Philadelphians

“Do not err, my brethren: if anyone follow a schismatic, he will not inherit the Kingdom of God. If any man walk about with strange doctrine, he cannot lie down with the passion. Take care, then, to use one Eucharist, so that whatever you do, you do according to God: for there is one Flesh of our Lord Jesus Christ, and one cup in the union of His Blood; one altar, as there is one bishop with the presbytery and my fellow servants, the deacons.”

— St. Ignatius Of Antioch, Epistle to the Philadelphians, 3:2-4:1, 110 A.D.

Seems the answer is clear…

 

[LutheranScholar]

Amen!

But I would add that it is of great import that message is the true kerygma, and not one that has been vitiated by men.

That’s why Catholicism is so greatly troubled by the obscenity of these tens of thousands of differing Christian denominations, each proclaiming some varying message of the true kergyma.

What* you *see as obscenity, we simply see as gatherings of brethren to proclaim Christ and Him crucified. Obviously, we Lutherans disagree with certain Reformed Calvinist, Anabaptist and Anglican teachings, but we don’t presume to judge the state of their souls and we accept them as well as you as fellow Christians who have Baptism in the Name of the Holy Trinity and the Sacrament of the Altar. You also proclaim the Gospel, even as we do.

 

[PRmerger]

What* you *see as obscenity, we simply see as gatherings of brethren to proclaim Christ and Him crucified.

If you all were preaching the same gospel, we wouldn’t object.

Obviously, we Lutherans disagree with certain Reformed Calvinist, Anabaptist and Anglican teachings, but we don’t presume to judge the state of their souls

You seem to be working under some misapprehension that Catholicism attempts to judge the state of your separated souls. (Else why even mention that?)

Let me assure you that there is no such teaching in Catholicism that claims for herself the right to judge souls.

and we accept them as well as you as fellow Christians who have Baptism in the Name of the Holy Trinity and the Sacrament of the Altar. You also proclaim the Gospel, even as we do.

We, too, accept them as fellow Christians.

But where they have divorced themselves from the kerygma, we say: no. You are wrong.

And you should, too.

 

[steve_b]

We are heirs of the early Church Fathers, too.

Now THAT"S a whopper! Heirs don’t show up on their own after 1500 years.
L:

Again, we don’t see ourselves as the schismatics. bookofconcord.org/testimonies.php

We know when Lutheranism came about and who the founder is and who he broke from.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Now THAT"S a whopper! Heirs don’t show up on their own after 1500 years.

We know when Lutheranism came about and who the founder is and who he broke from.

No, they don’t. They are led up to by predecessors. The Western Church had the Gospel and the Sacraments and that never changed until Pope Gregory and Leo X decided to introduce some innovations. All Luther and company did was remove the accretions of unnecessary traditions and return to the basics of Biblical teaching. Of course they had catechisms to return correctly. No, as Luther was the son of parents, Lutheranism developed out of the Western Church, retaining her sacraments and proclaiming the Gospel, even as the Apostles and the Early Church Fathers did. You note that I will give you a link, which you may or may not access, as you will. Quote bombing and using obscure theological terms only takes away from the pure and simple Message of the Gospel. Stroking an institutional ego won’t lessen the validity of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in the eyes of God.

 

[Bballer32]

The Church that gave us the Bible predated Trent by centuries.

I don’t know why you claim this because it’s the same church before and after Trent.

The Church that gives us the Word and Sacraments is vital to our corporate worship. I find it amusing that Catholicism claims credit due to the early Western Christian Church which the Lutheran Church also grew out of, as did the Anglicans.

False. Luther was Catholic, therefore he was excommunicated from the Catholic Church. The Lutheran “church” didn’t exist until Luther went rogue.

Anglicanism came from King Henry VIII, who was also Catholic. Originally he was called by the pope “The Defender of the Faith” when it came to the early years of the Protestant Reformation. However, Henry VIII wanted a divorce (which Christ taught against) and the pope wouldn’t grant him an annulment, so he made himself the head of Catholicism in England. The pope then excommunicated him. Notice again that Henry also was Catholic before disobeying one of Christ’s simple commandments.

Luther and the other Protestants of Northern Europe felt that Rome had slidden into apostasy, that this Church had muted the Gospel message in favor of promoting their own authority. So, after excommunications, anathemas and warfare, the Protestant Churches became entrenched in Northern Europe and became relatively powerful.

This is because of the French and English revolutions along with nominalism and individualism.

The belief that we could all approach God on our own, without a priestly intermediary or the Vatican’s seal of approval, held powerful appeal and the Bible, translated into the language of the people, put into the hands of learned men of the people ( how many colleges and universities are Protestant in origin?) gave the people what they needed to stand against the tyranny inherent in a religious monopoly.

I don’t really want to respond to all of this. It’s just historical ignorance.

The “language of the people” and “learned men of the people”? this sounds super democratic and again very ignorant. The learned people that you speak came after a Long line of smarter learned people (i.e Thomas Aquinus, Albertus Magnus, Peter Abelard, etc.)

Monopoly? Try monarchy which still doesn’t even deal with Catholicism.

In places where the Inquisition held sway, obviously, this Reformation of the Western Church wasn’t going to get very far. We need the Church, the same Church that Christ established on Peter’s Confession, which was the very Rock of the Church, to guide us through this life, feed and nourish our faith through Word and Sacrament and to assist us in grooming our young to continue to live the life of the Gospel.

Something funny about your Peter’s confession comment. After many scriptural studies, I have come to realize that the whole “Rock Argument” is really irrelevant to Church establishment. What really matters is the authority that came afterwards in the following verses so don’t go there: that’s for a different Thread.

Study up, and truly look into History because you are missing A LOT of crucial info.

“He who studies history ceases to be Protestant” -Cardinal Henry Newman

 

[Bballer32]

We are heirs of the early Church Fathers, too. Again, we don’t see ourselves as the schismatics. bookofconcord.org/testimonies.php

You really just went there huh? Everyone in Heaven just disagreed with you right there

 

[steido01]

Once someone “knows” their status, in relation to the Catholic Church, then they are no longer innocently ignorant of the wrong they are in. Ignorance is no longer an escape for them.

Just want to make sure I’m understanding you clearly, Steve. Are you insinuating that the vast majority of Protestants will not make it to heaven?

You seem to be working under some misapprehension that Catholicism attempts to judge the state of your separated souls. (Else why even mention that?)

Let me assure you that there is no such teaching in Catholicism that claims for herself the right to judge souls.

We, too, accept them as fellow Christians.

This was my understanding, too. But the way Steve puts it, well… he seems to insinuate that the vast majority of Protestants are not saved. Hardly seems like we are considered fellow Christians.

 

[LutheranScholar]

If you all were preaching the same gospel, we wouldn’t object.

You seem to be working under some misapprehension that Catholicism attempts to judge the state of your separated souls. (Else why even mention that?)

Let me assure you that there is no such teaching in Catholicism that claims for herself the right to judge souls.

We, too, accept them as fellow Christians.

But where they have divorced themselves from the kerygma, we say: no. You are wrong.

And you should, too.

All right, point taken. Neither the Catholic or the Lutheran churches are in any position to judge the state of a person’s soul. That judgment rightfully belongs to God. Okay, good, that’s good. Do we not all proclaim the Trinity? Do we not share similar Scripture? Do we not all have the Sacraments of Baptism and Holy Communion? Do we not gather together in our churches to declare the Good News that Jesus came to relieve us from the Law’s awful burden by dying in our place? Kerygma, to those interested, means nothing more than preaching and we do preach! From the pulpits and lecterns every Sunday, Christ is proclaimed. Every time we celebrate the Sacrament of the Lord’s Supper, we are joined to all the angels and saints in God’s Presence, giving glory to Him. We receive the Body and Blood of Jesus when we approach the Altar and are so joined to Christ Himself! What a wonderful, awe inspiring Gift that is! Is somebody going to limit God’s power by saying " well, because he doesn’t have the proper spiritual pedigree ( which St. Paul warned Timothy about), God won’t work through him because we say so?" God forbid! Rather, “where two or three are gathered in My Name, there I am among them.” He said nothing about the Catholic Church being a prerequisite.

 

[LutheranScholar]

You really just went there huh? Everyone in Heaven just disagreed with you right there

You certainly can’t speak for the Heavenly Host. Sorry. That statement was not valid.

 

[LutheranScholar]

I don’t know why you claim this because it’s the same church before and after Trent.

False. Luther was Catholic, therefore he was excommunicated from the Catholic Church. The Lutheran “church” didn’t exist until Luther went rogue.

Anglicanism came from King Henry VIII, who was also Catholic. Originally he was called by the pope “The Defender of the Faith” when it came to the early years of the Protestant Reformation. However, Henry VIII wanted a divorce (which Christ taught against) and the pope wouldn’t grant him an annulment, so he made himself the head of Catholicism in England. The pope then excommunicated him. Notice again that Henry also was Catholic before disobeying one of Christ’s simple commandments.

This is because of the French and English revolutions along with nominalism and individualism.

I don’t really want to respond to all of this. It’s just historical ignorance.

The “language of the people” and “learned men of the people”? this sounds super democratic and again very ignorant. The learned people that you speak came after a Long line of smarter learned people (i.e Thomas Aquinus, Albertus Magnus, Peter Abelard, etc.)

Monopoly? Try monarchy which still doesn’t even deal with Catholicism.

Something funny about your Peter’s confession comment. After many scriptural studies, I have come to realize that the whole “Rock Argument” is really irrelevant to Church establishment. What really matters is the authority that came afterwards in the following verses so don’t go there: that’s for a different Thread.

Study up, and truly look into History because you are missing A LOT of crucial info.

“He who studies history ceases to be Protestant” -Cardinal Henry Newman

The Lutheran response to this would be " who cares?"

 

[LutheranScholar]

Just want to make sure I’m understanding you clearly, Steve. Are you insinuating that the vast majority of Protestants will not make it to heaven?

This was my understanding, too. But the way Steve puts it, well… he seems to insinuate that the vast majority of Protestants are not saved. Hardly seems like we are considered fellow Christians.

It’s not like they have much room to throw stones. If it weren’t for the institutional corruption of the Catholic Church in the 1500s there wouldn’t have been any need for a Reformation in the first place.

 

[steido01]

It’s not like they have much room to throw stones. If it weren’t for the institutional corruption of the Catholic Church in the 1500s there wouldn’t have been any need for a Reformation in the first place.

There’s no need to return the 300-year-old-polemics, LS. Mind the 8th Commandment and place the best construction on everything.

Our Catholic friends are just that – our friends. And we will need to work closer together as the secular world closes in around us. We do that not by bringing up the human deficiencies of Luther, Pope Leo X, or any of us alive today. We do that by seeking doctrinal agreement where we can, and deep understanding where we cannot. Let’s stay respectful.

 

[Bballer32]

We are heirs of the early Church Fathers, too. Again, we don’t see ourselves as the schismatics. bookofconcord.org/testimonies.php

Also, I would like to ask why do you follow the book of concord when that is clearly contrary to bible authority

 

[LutheranScholar]

Also, I would like to ask why do you follow the book of concord when that is clearly contrary to bible authority

It upholds Biblical Authority. Even over and above tradition, which is measured by it.

 

[Bballer32]

The Lutheran response to this would be " who cares?"

This is how Protestantism thrives. As long as indifferentism is around then so will Protestantism.

 

[Jon_S_1]

We are heirs of the early Church Fathers, too. Again, we don’t see ourselves as the schismatics. bookofconcord.org/testimonies.php

I understand you don’t see Luther as a schismatic. Was Luther a Bishop? No.

With what authority did Luther act…was he a prophet of God?

Luther had no authority to act on his own outside the bounds of the church to “return to anything”

It seems obvious to anyone that Luther broke away from the church. The church that Christ promised would never fail, the church that Christ promised the holy spirit would guide in all truth.

How did Luther honor Ignatius of Antioch words here…is this how Luther regarded his bishop? Note Ignatius did not qualify these statements with “if you agree with the bishop”.

“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. …] Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. …] Whatsoever [the bishop] shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.” (St. Ignatius: Letter to the Smyrnaeans; Ch 8)
“Let all things therefore be done by you with good order in Christ. Let the laity be subject to the deacons; the deacons to the presbyters; the presbyters to the bishop; the bishop to Christ, even as He is to the Father.” (St. Ignatius: Letter to the Smyrnaeans; Ch 9)

 

[steido01]

Also, I would like to ask why do you follow the book of concord when that is clearly contrary to bible authority

Well, we understand the Book of Concord to accurately reflect the Faith of the fathers and Scripture. That’s why the Lutheran Confessions quote so heavily from both sources.

To varying degrees, your own Church agrees with our Confessions. In fact, all of what Lutherans professed in Confessio Augustana was within the permissible range of Catholic belief, prior to Trent (which took place after Luther died).