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LutheranScholar
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I was Catholic for nearly twenty years of my life.
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LutheranScholar
Guest
I’m a member of the Lutheran Church- Missouri Synod. Yes, prior to 1988, the ELCA did not exist. The Evangelical Lutheran Church is simply the name that Lutherans have for their church, be it ELCA, LCMS, WELS, ELS, LCMC, etc…
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ptisme
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John 17:21
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.
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ptisme
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1 Timothy 3:15
15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household,** which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.**
15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household,** which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.**
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LutheranScholar
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Since my return to Christianity, the verse that speaks most loudly to me is John 15:5Modern English Version (MEV)
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who remains in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit. For without Me you can do nothing."
www.biblegateway.com
Without Jesus I am powerless indeed to do any good.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who remains in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit. For without Me you can do nothing."
www.biblegateway.com
Without Jesus I am powerless indeed to do any good.
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rfournier103
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WHEW!!! Thanks, man! I appreciate that!…I’m ok with you believing that. I do not.
I do not, nor could I ever have the authority to declare such a thing. I am just a regular schmoe - just like you.
HOWEVER… The Church that Christ Jesus Founded has certainly declared it so.
I can tell by this thread that Protestantism is alive and well.
Did the Church need to “clean up” some very serious corruption? Absolutely. Did the Church’s whole theology need to be changed? NO. Martin Luther, John Calvin, and the rest of their cohorts threw the baby out with the bathwater and formed an entirely new Christian community apart from the Church.
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ptisme
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Great quote
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aidanbradypop
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LOL Glad we cleared that up
The Church does have authority. Every Christian should proclaim that.
Well this may be where we differ. I believe the dirty bath water was tossed, yet the baby intact. Those Churches are still part of the Christian Church. Agree?
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rfournier103
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The Church DOES indeed have the Authority Christ delegated to Her through the passing of the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven.
You and I disagree because this Authority rests with the Catholic Church. There is not a single Protestant community that possesses this Authority.
The Lutheran church does not.
The Baptist church does not.
Louie’s Main Street Bible Grotto does not.
True Christian Dogma and Doctrine is NOT dirty bathwater; yet WAS rejected by the Protestants. The Real Presence for example…
I can agree that Protestants are Christians, and are part of the Christian church - with a lower case “c”. There is a huge difference between the “Church” and the “church”.
I believe that I read somewhere that you considered yourself a Catholic for a few minutes. You’re a smart guy, Dustin. You should know what I must believe and accept - and what I can’t.
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aidanbradypop
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We disagree on what the Church is. However, we both agree that there is a need for authority.
I respect that. There are many non Catholic Churches that believe in the RP as you speak about.
I see the RCC as a “c” that is part of the Christian "C"hurch.
Yes I was. I was Evangelical, the Catholic for 17 or so years and back home in Evangelicalism. Almost became a Deacon as well. Friend I respect what you believe. I respect you for presenting your faith the way you do. You are always charitable in every encounter with you! I hope you can say the same about me.
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Jon_S_1
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Which churches are?LOL Glad we cleared that up
The Church does have authority. Every Christian should proclaim that.
Well this may be where we differ. I believe the dirty bath water was tossed, yet the baby intact. Those Churches are still part of the Christian Church. Agree?
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aidanbradypop
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Code:
You already know my answer Jon.
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Jon_S_1
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Actually I am still unclear about it!!
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aidanbradypop
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The ones with the snakes in the back closet.
This sums it up gotquestions.org/what-is-the-church.html
Hope this helps ya see my position Jon. Have a good night friend.
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PRmerger
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Right.
What is the Christian message? Is it that we must be baptized by immersion? Is it that we must pray the sinner’s prayer? Is it that we are going to be raptured?
There is only chaos and confusion in the paradigm that states all or none of the above are true.
That is most definitely NOT what Christ willed.
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ptisme
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This is outstanding. IMHO the conservative protestants and the Catholics will reunite when the “stuff” hits the fan…
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Steve_Timm
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Hi, Rfournier!!
That is a really good point you made when you said that Protestants have forgotten that Martin Luther wanted to clean up the Catholic Church!! In fact, there was a large portion of Martin Luther that was saddened by people breaking with the Catholic Church. You are incredibly right when you mention the atrocities at the hands of the Protestants in places like Britain, The Netherlands and Germany. As a Protestant, this deeply saddens me as Christ did not die so people can hurt each other over doctrinal differences.
The council of Trent was a good step in the right direction at reform!! I am in prayer with you, rfournier that one day, all of Christendom will unite under Christ the King!! I would love to see that and I think we would be hard pressed to find any Catholic or Protestant that would object to that!!
Take care and catch you on the forum!!
Steve Timm
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Steve_Timm
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Hi, Steve B!!!Welcome to the forum :tiphat:
I’ve heard the comment as well, that Luther didn’t want to start a new Church apart from the Catholic Church. Here’s why I don’t believe that.
Re: “the saving work of Jesus on the cross”, doesn’t then translate into a person can then believe or reject what they want without consequences. That would be relativism.
- Excommunication isn’t meant to be permanent. The hope is that the one who is excommunicated will change and come back into communion. Luther was given multiple chances to change and he didn’t take any of them.
- He doubled down on his errors and refused correction. Here’s an example, 10 years after he was excommunicated, he said the following
- " I also know that in Rom. 3, the word “solum” is not present in either Greek or Latin text - the papists did not have to teach me that - it is fact! The letters s-o-l-a are not there."
- “if your Papist wishes to make a great fuss about the word “alone” (sola), say this to him: “Dr.Martin Luther will have it so and he says that a papist and an *** are the same thing.” Sic volo, sic iubeo, sit pro ratione voluntas. (I will it, I command it; my will is reason enough) For we are not going to become students and followers of the papists. Rather we will become their judge and master”.
- " However, I was not depending upon or following the nature of language when I inserted the word “solum” (alone) in Rom. 3 as the text itself, and St. Paul’s meaning, urgently necessitated and demanded it " iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/wittenberg/luther/luther-translate.txt
- This shows his disposition. There was no working with that guy
That’s my :twocents:
Thank you for your comments!!!
You have several valid points and I appreciate your views!!
You are right when you say Martin Luther was excommunicated from the Catholic Church and in his case, it became permanent. He was excommunicated simply because he spoke truth to power. The Catholic Church did not like that!! Jesus was also excluded from the fellowship of the temple for the very same reasons as Martin Luther. They both were fed up with the corruption of the religious establishment of their day. Both Martin Luther and Jesus share many similarities. Both men attracted the common man, rather than the religious elites, and both men taught that God was a God of love and not someone who was waiting in the wings to damn people. Martin Luther did not repent because he was standing up to the corruption of the Church!! Martin Luther so loved the Catholic Church that he wanted the power brokers of the time to teach correct Catholic teaching, doctrine and tradition. Not the selling of indulgences, giving a certain amount of money so you can buy your way into heaven, God being a wrathful God, etc.
You are right, Steve B when you mention about Martin Luther putting in Sola Scriptura in the translation of the scriptures. But, and here is where I feel many Catholics are not aware of this, Sola Scriptura is not in the original manuscripts of the scriptures!! You will not find it anywhere in the Bible. It is good that you referenced Romans Chapter 3, because that gives a good illustration of Lutheran theology. I think it gives a good illustration of Catholic Theology too!! Works always accompany true saving faith. One cannot be saved by faith alone!! Works always accompany a true faith. Works are a natural byproduct of faith. Lutherans don’t believe in Sola Scriptura alone. We believe in Church tradition (both of the Catholic and Lutheran traditions) the witness, writings and the example of the saints and the example and holiness of the Mother of God. Who, incidentally, is our Mother too!! It is an interesting thing to note, that Martin Luther always taught, professed and confessed that Mary was immaculately conceived, was a virgin her whole life and was the Mother of God and consequently, our mother too!!
Yes, indeed I agree with you that a person believing what they want to believe without consequences is relativism. In fact, that is a grave error that has infested our society!! As far as Christs sacrifice on the cross is concerned, I believe that is a done deal. The seal of forgiveness has been placed on anyone willing to believe in the life, death, resurrection and the ascention Christ. That, for me, is first and foremost. The saving work of Christ on the cross is not a relative thing for me at all. It is fact. If a person does not believe this, I would not want to be in their shoes when they pass over the veil!! There will be definite consequences for people who reject Christ. And they will not be good ones!!
If you see this post, Steve B, let me know what your thoughts are on this!!
Thank you again for your (name removed by moderator)ut, Steve B!! I like discussing Christ and his Church!!!
Take care all and God Bless!!!
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MaryT777
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So you were wrong for 20 year and now you are right?
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LutheranScholar
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Well, I was a Baptist beforehand for twenty- *one *years. By that argument, I guess you could say that the Baptists were right all along. You can tell a tree by its fruits. I’ve never, as a Catholic, experienced the desire that I do now as a Lutheran to live my life solely for Christ. If going from one supposedly Catholic diocese to another is like going to another denomination( sometimes there are even liturgical variances. What’s up with an altar being put in the middle of the sanctuary and people standing when they should be kneeling?), and if the LCMS is consistent in its doctrine no matter which district you live in, then yes, the LCMS gets points for consistency. I’ve never left a Confession as a Lutheran with doubts that the Confession was valid because I forgot a point or two of minutiae. Lutheran pastors have never been, on a global scale, the focus of the kind of scandals we’ve seen rock the Catholic Church, what with charges not only of pedophilia, but of verbal, physical and emotional abuse of those they are charged to teach. The Holy Spirit led me to the doors of my Lutheran Church Missouri Synod as someone with an open heart who was willing to learn. I’ve been embraced and accepted by Lutherans as I had never been as a Baptist ( the church I was raised in ) or as a Catholic. The Lutherans also make it possible for me to serve the church, to proclaim the Word and to have a direct influence on the affairs of the congregation. With the Word and Sacrament, I am assured of salvation. Where is that assurance in the Catholic Church?
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