The end of Protestantism

[ptisme]

Well, I was a Baptist beforehand for twenty- *one *years. By that argument, I guess you could say that the Baptists were right all along. You can tell a tree by its fruits. I’ve never, as a Catholic, experienced the desire that I do now as a Lutheran to live my life solely for Christ. If going from one supposedly Catholic diocese to another is like going to another denomination( sometimes there are even liturgical variances. What’s up with an altar being put in the middle of the sanctuary and people standing when they should be kneeling?), and if the LCMS is consistent in its doctrine no matter which district you live in, then yes, the LCMS gets points for consistency. I’ve never left a Confession as a Lutheran with doubts that the Confession was valid because I forgot a point or two of minutiae. Lutheran pastors have never been, on a global scale, the focus of the kind of scandals we’ve seen rock the Catholic Church, what with charges not only of pedophilia, but of verbal, physical and emotional abuse of those they are charged to teach. The Holy Spirit led me to the doors of my Lutheran Church Missouri Synod as someone with an open heart who was willing to learn. I’ve been embraced and accepted by Lutherans as I had never been as a Baptist ( the church I was raised in ) or as a Catholic. The Lutherans also make it possible for me to serve the church, to proclaim the Word and to have a direct influence on the affairs of the congregation. With the Word and Sacrament, I am assured of salvation. Where is that assurance in the Catholic Church?

Please dont take this as beating up on you but you use the words “I” and “me” an awful lot. That suggests why you weren’t satisfied with the Baptists and the Catholics previously IMHO.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Please dont take this as beating up on you but you use the words “I” and “me” an awful lot. That suggests why you weren’t satisfied with the Baptists and the Catholics previously IMHO.

Absolutely. The sense of being on my own as a do it yourself Christian was very pervasive before I entered the Lutheran Church. The Lutheran sense of community, the idea that one can be a part of the Body of Christ and contribute fully to it, has also been a great blessing. When I’m discussing my experiences, I will use the words I and me a lot. Doesn’t everyone?

 

[Stilldreamn]

Absolutely. The sense of being on my own as a do it yourself Christian was very pervasive before I entered the Lutheran Church. The Lutheran sense of community, the idea that one can be a part of the Body of Christ and contribute fully to it, has also been a great blessing. When I’m discussing my experiences, I will use the words I and me a lot. Doesn’t everyone?

Perhaps we ought to use the imperial “we” instead.

 

[ptisme]

Absolutely. The sense of being on my own as a do it yourself Christian was very pervasive before I entered the Lutheran Church. The Lutheran sense of community, the idea that one can be a part of the Body of Christ and contribute fully to it, has also been a great blessing. When I’m discussing my experiences, I will use the words I and me a lot. Doesn’t everyone?

The whole idea of finding happiness in this world is giving yourself completely to Christ and replacing “me” with “him”. Focus on self can leave us very lonely. Sounds like you’re figuring it out when you refer to being a “part of the Body of Christ”. I contend the restlessness you had wasn’t because of Catholicism but rather your focus on self. JMHO…

 

[MaryT777]

The whole idea of finding happiness in this world is giving yourself completely to Christ and replacing “me” with “him”. Focus on self can leave us very lonely. Sounds like you’re figuring it out when you refer to being a “part of the Body of Christ”. I contend the restlessness you had wasn’t because of Catholicism but rather your focus on self. JMHO…

Yes when we focus on what WE are getting out of Church our focus is internal instead of on Christ.

Mary.

 

[Memaw]

Absolutely. The sense of being on my own as a do it yourself Christian was very pervasive before I entered the Lutheran Church. The Lutheran sense of community, the idea that one can be a part of the Body of Christ and contribute fully to it, has also been a great blessing. When I’m discussing my experiences, I will use the words I and me a lot. Doesn’t everyone?

And you walked away from the TRUE Body, Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ in the Holy Mass and Blessed Sacrament !! Evidently you didn’t know your Catholic Faith very well. Prayers and God Bless, Memaw

 

[LutheranScholar]

And you walked away from the TRUE Body, Blood Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ in the Holy Mass and Blessed Sacrament !! Evidently you didn’t know your Catholic Faith very well. Prayers and God Bless, Memaw

No, I walked* to *the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ in the only really blessed way to receive Him… according to His Words and Institution. You know a tree by its fruits. May the Lord keep you steadfast in His faith.

 

[LutheranScholar]

Perhaps we ought to use the imperial “we” instead.

Oh, that would just make things peachy, I’m sure. We are highly amused. All the same, I have noticed that the Protestants on this board seem eager to embrace everybody who owns Jesus as Lord and Savior, regardless of doctrine, Catholic and Protestant alike, on their own terms and happily in their own churches, than I’ve seen from certain Catholics here. That, too, is a worthy testimony of Christ’s love manifested through His Church.

 

[MaryT777]

Oh, that would just make things peachy, I’m sure. We are highly amused. All the same, I have noticed that the Protestants on this board seem eager to embrace everybody who owns Jesus as Lord and Savior, regardless of doctrine, Catholic and Protestant alike, on their own terms and happily in their own churches, than I’ve seen from certain Catholics here. That, too, is a worthy testimony of Christ’s love manifested through His Church.

Are you kidding me? LCMS posters on this board have affirmed their belief our Pope sits in the seat of the AntiChrist. Have you read the language Luther uses in regards to Catholics in the Concord book, or have you read any of it at all? It certainly is not Catholic friendly and that is the Synod where you profess your belief is it not? The writings in the Concord book do not remotely support Christ’s love towards Catholics.

Were you involved in the LCMS during such time there were issues regarding Seminex, or the Benke dispute. The poor guy was drug through the slime in the mud for praying at the 911 service despite he had permission from his superior.Probably before your time and when you were in your Baptist Days. All Churches have had issues. The problem is who do you want guiding your Church? I choose the Holy Spirit in the Church Christ established , the Catholic Church ,with himself as the Head.

What about your policy on syncretism and unionism? What say you about that?
I would like your opinion personally as a Lutheran scholar on syncretism and unionism.
Do you agree with the LCMS teachings on these issues?

Mary.

 

[steido01]

…]I have noticed that the Protestants on this board seem eager to embrace everybody who owns Jesus as Lord and Savior, regardless of doctrine, Catholic and Protestant alike, on their own terms and happily in their own churches, than I’ve seen from certain Catholics here. That, too, is a worthy testimony of Christ’s love manifested through His Church.

Are you kidding me? LCMS posters on this board have affirmed their belief our Pope sits in the seat of the AntiChrist. Have you read the language Luther uses in regards to Catholics in the Concord book, or have you read any of it at all? It certainly is not Catholic friendly and that is the Synod where you profess your belief is it not? The writings in the Concord book do not remotely support Christ’s love towards Catholics.

Mary, in all your interactions with the LCMS posters here, have you ever found us to attack you personally? No. Do we come here to proselytize? No. Do we have doctrinal divisions between our communions? Of course. But we needn’t be offended when discussing them.

And please, please, please don’t confuse what a Lutheran means when he says “anti-Christ” with what a “Left Behinder” thinks. As we’ve explained ad nauseum, anyone -even a Lutheran pastor- can be anti-Christ. It’s just the label we use to denote what we consider to be teacher of false doctrine. Furthermore, as we’ve also noted repeatedly, our church does not teach that any individual pope is the Antichrist, and recognizes that they may very well be (heck, 99% chance they are) Christian. And further yet - the three claims Lutherans hold against the papacy are all conditional; they can end, and at least one of them has. Mary, you’re finding great offense where there really needn’t be so much. Edit: this is not to minimize the doctrinal differences that do separate us. But when you consider the non-Catholic, non-Orthodox Christians, a Catholic won’t find better friends than the Confessional Lutherans and [most] Anglo-Catholics.

Were you involved in the LCMS during such time there were issues regarding Seminex,

Were you involved in the RCC when the Old Catholics split off?

or the Benke dispute. The poor guy was drug through the slime in the mud for praying at the 911 service despite he had permission from his superior.

Benke was/still is President (Bishop) of the Atlantic District. His only superiors would’ve been the Praesidium, but no President of the Synod has the authority to break the Synod’s very clear beliefs without consequence. Benke didn’t just pray with other Christians (which would’ve been fine), he participated in a worship service with other religions, and publicly prayed with non-Christians. That can be seen as an endorsement of those beliefs. So, it is not allowed. This is reasonable. Would a pope take Lutheran communion? Or act as lector for a Lutheran worship service? Of course not.

All Churches have had issues.

Bingo.

What about your policy on syncretism and unionism? What say you about that? I would like your opinion personally as a Lutheran scholar on syncretism and unionism.
Do you agree with the LCMS teachings on these issues?

It’s not much different from your own. Non-Lutherans cannot typically partake in our Eucharist, and non-Catholics cannot typically partake of your Eucharist. Your priests do not participate in Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, or even Lutheran worship, and we do not participate in non-Christian prayer or non-Lutheran worship. What is so offensive about these reasonable and loving limits?

 

[Peter_J]

Not to be picky, but I don’t think LutheranScholar said all those things.

 

[Jon_S_1]

-]/-]-]/-]

Steve_Timm:
So I just thought I would demonstrate that this first paragraph just seems like a flowery exposition of a personal hero without much facts or evidence for support. So why it may be your opinion it is just an opinion based on your own personal beliefs. I could (well I did) rewrite your paragraph inserting Joseph Smith for Luther and Mormonism for Lutheranism and the protestant churches for Catholicism, and it is equally “accurate” from a Mormons perspective (more or less) If you know about Smith you know he wanted to find the truth but was so disillusioned by the competing factions of the american great awakening that (God told him) to start the “true church”.

Steve Tims paragraph revised by me.

You are right when you say Joseph Smith was -]excommunicated/-] [persecuted] from the Protestant Church and in his case, it became permanent. He was -]excommnicated/-] [persecuted] simply because he spoke truth to power. The Protestant Churches did not like that!! Jesus was also excluded from the fellowship of the temple for the very same reasons as Joseph Smith. They both were fed up with the corruption of the religious establishment of their day. Both Joseph Smith and Jesus share many similarities. Both men attracted the common man, rather than the religious elites, and both men taught that God was a God of love and not someone who was waiting in the wings to damn people. Joseph Smith did not repent because he was standing up to the corruption of the Church(es)!! Joseph Smith so loved the Churches that he wanted the power brokers of the time to teach correct Christian teaching, doctrine and tradition. Not the selling of indulgences, giving a certain amount of money so you can buy your way into heaven, God being a wrathful God, etc.

 

[Peter_J]

What about your policy on syncretism and unionism? What say you about that? I would like your opinion personally as a Lutheran scholar on syncretism and unionism.
Do you agree with the LCMS teachings on these issues?

Not that this of necessarily of interest to Ls (or is it? ) but it’s worth noting that the Catholic-Orthodox produced a document titled “Uniatism, method of union of the past and the present search for full communion.”

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/ch_orthodox_docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19930624_lebanon_en.html

 

[PRmerger]

You can tell a tree by its fruits.

Well, yes. But you want to make sure that the tree is rooted in truth, right?

For who can doubt that Mormonism has produced some very good fruit. Mormons are some of the kindest, most moral, most temperate folks I’ve ever met.

But their faith is grounded in some very, very heretical beliefs…so if we only look at “fruit” and not the “roots”, we’ll be Mormons.

I’ve never, as a Catholic, experienced the desire that I do now as a Lutheran to live my life solely for Christ.

We ought not judge what denomination we’re going to join by the fervor we’re experiencing.

For who can doubt that those in the Westboro Baptist Church profess quite passionately and ardently their devotion to Christ.

But, eek!

Clearly, a denomination which inspires fervency to live for Christ can be false.

If going from one supposedly Catholic diocese to another is like going to another denomination( sometimes there are even liturgical variances. What’s up with an altar being put in the middle of the sanctuary and people standing when they should be kneeling?),

Really? That’s a big deal to you?

This is definitely NOT a doctrinal difference.

and if the LCMS is consistent in its doctrine no matter which district you live in, then yes, the LCMS gets points for consistency.

They play different songs at different Lutheran services. That’s as inconsistent as what you have charged Catholic dioceses with.

 

[PRmerger]

Lutheran pastors have never been, on a global scale, the focus of the kind of scandals we’ve seen rock the Catholic Church, what with charges not only of pedophilia, but of verbal, physical and emotional abuse of those they are charged to teach.

Well, firstly, that’s probably because statistically Lutherans pastors are a drop in the bucket compared to the number of Catholic priests.

Secondly, even if there were no Lutheran pedophiles and hundreds of Catholic pedophiles, it’s a mistake to leave Jesus because of Judas.

Join the Church Jesus founded, warts and all, not the church that has the least amount of scandals.

 

[Memaw]

No, I walked* to *the Body and Blood of Jesus Christ in the only really blessed way to receive Him… according to His Words and Institution. You know a tree by its fruits. May the Lord keep you steadfast in His faith.

Divide and conquer into 40,000 different denominations in a little over 500 years. That’s not what Our Lord prayed for. The Catholic Church has been One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic for over 2,000 years. God Bless, Memaw

 

[steido01]

Not to be picky, but I don’t think LutheranScholar said all those things.

CAF is about the furthest extent of my computer skills… on a good day.

Sorry LS and Mary! Maybe Eric can fix my quoting?

 

[steido01]

Not that this of necessarily of interest to Ls (or is it? ) but it’s worth noting that the Catholic-Orthodox produced a document titled “Uniatism, method of union of the past and the present search for full communion.”

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/ch_orthodox_docs/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_19930624_lebanon_en.html

There’s much in Balamand to admire. Maybe in the future, it can be a model for Catholic-Protestant unity. I think we should also note… as much as Balamand brought the Catholic and the Orthodox together, neither side worshiped with the other during the conference. Catholics on Saturday evening, Orthodox on Sunday morning.

 

[Jon_S_1]

The ‘protestant’ search backwards for ‘simplicity’ and directness – which, of course, though it contains some good or at least intelligible motives, is mistaken and indeed vain. Because ‘primitive Christianity’ is now and in spite of all ‘research’ will ever remain largely unknown; because ‘primitiveness’ is no guarantee of value, and is and was in great part a reflection of ignorance. Grave abuses were as much an element in Christian ‘liturgical’ behaviour from the beginning as now. (St Paul’s strictures on eucharistic behaviour are sufficient to show this!) Still more because ‘my church’ was not intended by Our Lord to be static or remain in perpetual childhood; but to be a living organism (likened to a plant), which develops and changes in externals by the interaction of its bequeathed divine life and history – the particular circumstances of the world into which it is set. There is no resemblance between the ‘mustard-seed’ and the full-grown tree. For those living in the days of its branching growth the Tree is the thing, for the history of a living thing is pan of its life, and the history of a divine thing is sacred. The wise may know that it began with a seed, but it is vain to try and dig it up, for it no longer exists, and the virtue and powers that it had now reside in the Tree. Very good: but in husbandry the authorities, the keepers of the Tree, must look after it, according to such wisdom as they possess, prune it, remove cankers, rid it of parasites, and so forth. (With trepidation, knowing how little their knowledge of growth is!) But they will certainly do harm, if they are obsessed with the desire of going back to the seed or even to the first youth of the plant when it was (as they imagine) pretty and unafflicted by evils. The other motive (now so confused with the primitivist one, even in the mind of any one of the reformers): aggiornamento: bringing up to date: that has its own grave dangers, as has been apparent throughout history. With this ‘ecumenicalness’ has also become confused,

-JRR Tolkien Letter 306

 

[LutheranScholar]

Are you kidding me? LCMS posters on this board have affirmed their belief our Pope sits in the seat of the AntiChrist. Have you read the language Luther uses in regards to Catholics in the Concord book, or have you read any of it at all? It certainly is not Catholic friendly and that is the Synod where you profess your belief is it not? The writings in the Concord book do not remotely support Christ’s love towards Catholics.

Were you involved in the LCMS during such time there were issues regarding Seminex, or the Benke dispute. The poor guy was drug through the slime in the mud for praying at the 911 service despite he had permission from his superior.Probably before your time and when you were in your Baptist Days. All Churches have had issues. The problem is who do you want guiding your Church? I choose the Holy Spirit in the Church Christ established , the Catholic Church ,with himself as the Head.

What about your policy on syncretism and unionism? What say you about that?
I would like your opinion personally as a Lutheran scholar on syncretism and unionism.
Do you agree with the LCMS teachings on these issues?

Mary.

From the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod Handbook:
Constitution of The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod
Article VI Conditions of Membership
Conditions for acquiring and holding membership in the Synod are the following:

1. Acceptance of the confessional basis of Article II.
2. Renunciation of unionism and syncretism of every description, such as:
   a. Serving congregations of mixed confession, as such, by ministers
   of the church;
   b. Taking part in the services and sacramental rites of heterodox
   congregations or of congregations of mixed confession;
   c. Participating in heterodox tract and missionary activities.

I follow the lead of my church on this. If a congregation is to be genuine, it has to follow a single Confession, to quote Al Pacino as Michael Corleone, " all ships must sail in the same direction." Yes. If a congregation is to be Lutheran, let it be Confessional Lutheran, not some who profess Lutheranism, others who profess Pentecostalism, others who profess Unitarianism, etc… That kind of division in a single congregation can only lead to chaos. scholia.net/files/mccoy/82%20Unionism%20and%20Syncretism%20-%20Study%20and%20Guide.PDF