The End.

[dans0622]

Yes. An oddity. I don’t see how it amounts to very much, though.

If there is no liturgy being celebrated, for a few brief hours, I don’t see any problem with saying that Easter Time ends with Vespers II of Pentecost while Ordinary Time begins on Monday.

Let’s keep in mind that adding the alleluias is something that “is done” during Easter time. The phrasing is not “do not add during O.T.” (in the way that we are told omit/substitute the Alleluia during Lent at Mass)

Until the calendar revision, Easter Time ended sometime on Ascension Day, AND there was a Pentecost season.

I can easily see that when the revision was made, the ideas were put-forth (and approved, etc.) that a) Easter would be extended until Vespers2 on Pentecost and b) Ordinary Time would resume on Monday, maybe (just maybe) the question of “what season applies to that few hours in the middle?” did not present itself.

So, if I pray Vespers 2 of Pentecost at 5 PM on Sunday, then pray Compline at 1:00 AM on early Monday, does it really matter what season-name I apply to the intervening hours?

Now, if a parish has a late Mass on Sunday (maybe 7 PM, which would be after I pray Vespers in private), there’s no doubt I would use the Pentecost Mass. When there is Liturgy, defining the season is surely important.

Right. … I don’t know. It makes more sense to me to say the Easter Season extends until the resumption of ordinary time–i.e., through Pentecost Sunday. If I recall, this is how the general norms of the calendar say it. Even in the breviary, according to what was posted earlier, it says night prayer on Pentecost Sunday is taken from the same volume of the breviary.

Maybe there was just no better place to put the notice that the Easter Season ends than at the conclusion of vespers. Putting it at the end of compline wouldn’t look right, since the same text is used week after week.

It’s an interesting bit of minutiae.

Dan

 

[OraLabora]

Right. … I don’t know. It makes more sense to me to say the Easter Season extends until the resumption of ordinary time–i.e., through Pentecost Sunday. If I recall, this is how the general norms of the calendar say it. Even in the breviary, according to what was posted earlier, it says night prayer on Pentecost Sunday is taken from the same volume of the breviary.

Maybe there was just no better place to put the notice that the Easter Season ends than at the conclusion of vespers. Putting it at the end of compline wouldn’t look right, since the same text is used week after week.

It’s an interesting bit of minutiae.

Dan

Well the French and Latin LOTH do specify that Easter season ends after Pentecost (and not at a specific hour of Pentecost). As does the Ordo of Solesmes (from which our abbey’s is derived, and from which the ordos of all the abbeys in the Solesmes congregation are derived).

But I guess it’s a moot point now. In any case it’s clear late Mass would be the Mass of Pentecost, and the breviary sends you to Compline in the Lent/Easter volume. Clearly one doesn’t use the introductions/hymns/antiphons/Marian Antiphon of Lent…

For me, not being clergy and usually going to Pentecost Mass at 11 am at the abbey, I can just do Compline as spelled out in the Lent/Easter volume of the breviary, and not worry about what liturgical “time” it is. But I still put my money on it being Eastertide until midnight, I trust the liturgical experts of the Solesmes Congregation to get it right

 

[FrDavid96]

Right. … I don’t know. It makes more sense to me to say the Easter Season extends until the resumption of ordinary time–i.e., through Pentecost Sunday. If I recall, this is how the general norms of the calendar say it. Even in the breviary, according to what was posted earlier, it says night prayer on Pentecost Sunday is taken from the same volume of the breviary.

I’m more inclined to go by the rubrics.

Both the Latin and the English LOTH have a rubric immediately following Vespers2 of Pentecost indicating the the Easter Season ends with the conclusion of Vespers.

That particular rubric is one of those uncommon ones that tell us when seasons begin or end, the type that we don’t always see except for specific times when there might be some confusion, and for that reason I’m more inclined to trust something written as a specific sentence than a more general one which could be an oversight.

The rubric “Easter Time ends here” is about as specific as one can get (for the topic).

Maybe there was just no better place to put the notice that the Easter Season ends than at the conclusion of vespers. Putting it at the end of compline wouldn’t look right, since the same text is used week after week.

Well, doesn’t that bring up the question: why write “Easter Time ends here” instead of writing “Easter Time ends after Compline later tonight”?

Also, what if I pray Compline at 1 AM, or if I go to bed really late at 3 AM?

It’s an interesting bit of minutiae.

Dan

Exactly. That’s what I meant earlier when I asked “what’s the difference?”
The only practical difference is whether to add the Alleluias or not. And the possibility of a few hours with no liturgical season doesn’t amount to much if it’s in the context that no Liturgy is being prayed anyway.

 

[tee_eff_em]

[Don’t mind me – I’m just a trouble-maker]

Right. … I don’t know. It makes more sense to me to say the Easter Season extends until the resumption of ordinary time–i.e., through Pentecost Sunday. If I recall, this is how the general norms of the calendar say it. Even in the breviary, according to what was posted earlier, it says night prayer on Pentecost Sunday is taken from the same volume of the breviary.

Maybe there was just no better place to put the notice that the Easter Season ends than at the conclusion of vespers. Putting it at the end of compline wouldn’t look right, since the same text is used week after week.

It’s an interesting bit of minutiae.

Dan

Maybe it’s to make up for the part where Easter Sunday (up until vespers II) appears to be both part of the Easter Triduum and part of the Easter Season?

tee

 

[GoGoDiego]

In my opinion though, the gap from the official end of the Easter Season and the midnight wherein Ordinary Time officially starts gives us the chance to tone down our Paschal Joy and prepare to return to the time throughout the year. Especially, since the OF abolished the Pentecost Octave. Just my opinion though.

I am going to go with Fr. David here, since it is officially stated when the Easter Season ends and I researched about it. And it would be fitting and proper, since I do not live in a monastery anyway

 

[dans0622]

[Don’t mind me – I’m just a trouble-maker]

Maybe it’s to make up for the part where Easter Sunday (up until vespers II) appears to be both part of the Easter Triduum and part of the Easter Season?

tee

Intriguing. If I had the inclination, I suppose that if I really dug into all of these details, I’d find yet other oddities. The truth is, I do not have that inclination. … Maybe I do, but don’t want to admit it. It’s hard to tell.

Dan

 

[Vico]

The Fifty days are inclusive from Easter Sunday through Pentecost Sunday.

General Norms for the Liturgical Year and Calendar

II. Easter Season

1. The fifty days from Easter Sunday to Pentecost are celebrated in joyful exultation as one feast day, or better as one “great Sunday.” [12]

These above all others are the days for the singing of the Alleluia.

1. The Sundays of this season rank as the paschal Sundays and, after Easter Sunday itself, are called the Second, Third, Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, and Seventh Sundays of Easter. The period of fifty sacred days ends on Pentecost Sunday.

 

[ProVobis]

Ordinary time begins on Monday after Pentecost.

GENERAL NORMS FOR THE LITURGICAL YEAR AND THE CALENDAR – 14 FEBRUARY 1969

VI. Ordinary Time

1. Apart from those seasons having their own distinctive character, thirty-three or thirty-four weeks remain in the yearly cycle that do not celebrate a specific aspect of the mystery of Christ. Rather, especially on the Sundays, they are devoted to the mystery of Christ in all its aspects. This period is known as Ordinary Time.
2. Ordinary Time begins on Monday after the Sunday following 6 January and continues until Tuesday before Ash Wednesday inclusive. It begins again on Monday after Pentecost and ends before evening prayer I of the First Sunday of Advent.

This is also the reason for the series of liturgical texts found in both the Roman Missal and The Liturgy of the Hours (Vol. III-IV), for Sundays and weekdays in this season.

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWLITYR.HTM

Seems this was written in 1969. Could it be possible that no one saw fit to change it when the other rule was changed/set in 1974?

 

[Vico]

Seems this was written in 1969. Could it be possible that no one saw fit to change it when the other rule was changed/set in 1974?

Do you mean the 1974 publication of the 1971 promulgation?

It gives this general schedule per day (midnight to midnight), which makes Night Prayer the last office of Pentecost, (but Office of Readings for the next day can be after that on Pentecost Sunday).

• Invitatory
• Office of Readings (may be at other times)
• Morning Prayer
• Prayer During the Day - Before Noon
• Prayer During the Day - Midday
• Prayer During the Day - Afternoon
• Evening Prayer
• Night Prayer

The 1988 Circular has this:

Prot. N. 120/88 Congregation for Divine Worship on Saturday, 20 February 1988.

1. The celebration of Easter is prolonged throughout the Easter season. The fifty days from Easter Sunday to Pentecost Sunday are celebrated as one feast day, the “great Sunday”. (105)
2. This sacred period of fifty days concludes with Pentecost Sunday, when the gift of the Holy Spirit to the Apostles, the beginnings of the Church and the start of her mission to all tongues and peoples and nations are commemorated. (113)

 

[FrDavid96]

Seems this was written in 1969. Could it be possible that no one saw fit to change it when the other rule was changed/set in 1974?

I don’t see how there is anything to change.

Easter Season ends with the conclusion of Vespers2 on Pentecost Sunday. I don’t see how that conflicts with anything else.

 

[ProVobis]

Do you mean the 1974 publication of the 1971 promulgation?

No, I meant the definition of Ordinary Time. Seems like the gap, though small as it is, might have been prevented had everything been defined at the same time.

But it’s not a matter that keeps me up at night.

 

[Vico]

No, I meant the definition of Ordinary Time. Seems like the gap, though small as it is, might have been prevented had everything been defined at the same time.

But it’s not a matter that keeps me up at night.

The 1985-1987 Liturgiuam Horarum (typico editio altera) is current. In the older books, before calendar reform, the Time after Pentecost begins with First Vespers of Trinity Sunday. But, since the calendar was changed, the octave of Pentecost was suppressed. Then the norm became what was posted in the reform of the liturgical calendar, beginning Ordinary Time on Monday.
General Norms for the Liturgical Year and the Calendar, 14 February 1969.

But the two seasons are clearly defined as Easter and Ordinary, with no gaps:

II. Easter Season

1. The fifty days from Easter Sunday to Pentecost are celebrated in joyful exultation as one feast day, or better as one “great Sunday.” [12]
2. … The period of fifty sacred days ends on Pentecost Sunday.

VI. Ordinary Time

…

1. Ordinary Time begins on Monday after the Sunday following 6 January and continues until Tuesday before Ash Wednesday inclusive. It begins again on Monday after Pentecost and ends before evening prayer I of the First Sunday of Advent.

It is quite different for the Byzantine Catholic, since for Pascha, the Leave-Taking (Apodosis) is on the vigil of the Ascension (Thursday). The Byzantine daily cycle is from vespers.

 

[peregrinus_sg]

Yes, that is what the Latin text of the editio typica says.

But FrDavid96, that has been superseded by the editio typica altera of the Liturgia Horarum. The current Latin text clarifies that the compline after Vespers II on Pentcost Sunday is to follow the Eastertide form of the Office. I don’t have the texts with me right now as the relevant volume is at home, but when I have a chance I will post the actual words of the current Latin edition.

Ordos aren’t authoritative.

In the Latin text, the rubric that says Easter Time ends “here” is printed immediately after the dismissal for Vespers II of Pentecost. There is no rubric stating that it ends after Compline. The English uses different words, but says the same thing.

In the French text, where do you find the words “here ends the Easter Season”? Are they printed after Vespers II of Pentecost, or are they printed after Compline?

In the Latin text, these words are printed immediately after the dismissal for Vespers II of Pentecost:
Explicit tempus paschale.

The Latin text does not say (as you are inferring) that Easter Time ends someplace other than “here…immediately after the dismissal”, namely “not here, but over there after Compline.”

 

[tee_eff_em]

Yes, that is what the Latin text of the editio typica says.

But FrDavid96, that has been superseded by the editio typica altera of the Liturgia Horarum. The current Latin text clarifies that the compline after Vespers II on Pentcost Sunday is to follow the Eastertide form of the Office. I don’t have the texts with me right now as the relevant volume is at home, but when I have a chance I will post the actual words of the current Latin edition.

Huh.

I have the text handy (well, not too far out of the way, in any case). The *editio typica altera (Libreria Editrice Vaticana MM) *states, after II Vesperas. Dominica Pentecostes:
*Explicit tempus paschale. Post dominicam Pentecostes incipit tempus per annum (vol. III). Cf. Tabellam supra, *14-15. *Completorium ut infra *1280.,
The notable sentence being the last, *“Compline as below, 1280”. *I do not own vol III, so I cannot say what may appear on p 1280 of that volume, but vol II {Tempus Quadragesimae, Sacrum Triduum Paschale, Tempus Paschale) 1280 is indeed POST II VESPERAS DOMINICAE ET SOLLEMINATUM

tee

 

[peregrinus_sg]

You beat me to it!

I checked Volume III of the editio typica altera, and on page 1280 of that volume is the office for St Ephrem. So clearly, the rubric cannot refer to Volume 3.

The Latin also indicates that Ordinary Time begins only on the day after Pentecost, I.e. Monday, not after the Second Vespers of Pentecost. A day, canonically, ends at midnight (Canon 202.1), so Post dominicam can only refer to Monday.

But it is true that the editio typica wasn’t entirely clear, so it is good that they clarified it in the editio typica altera.

Huh.

I have the text handy (well, not too far out of the way, in any case). The *editio typica altera (Libreria Editrice Vaticana MM) *states, after II Vesperas. Dominica Pentecostes:
Explicit tempus paschale. Post dominicam Pentecostes incipit tempus per annum (vol. III). Cf. Tabellam supra, 14-15. Completorium ut infra 1280.,
The notable sentence being the last, *“Compline as below, 1280”. *I do not own vol III, so I cannot say what may appear on p 1280 of that volume, but vol II {Tempus Quadragesimae, Sacrum Triduum Paschale, Tempus Paschale) 1280 is indeed POST II VESPERAS DOMINICAE ET SOLLEMINATUM

tee

 

[tee_eff_em]

You beat me to it!

I checked Volume III of the editio typica altera, and on page 1280 of that volume is the office for St Ephrem. So clearly, the rubric cannot refer to Volume 3.

The Latin also indicates that Ordinary Time begins only on the day after Pentecost, I.e. Monday, not after the Second Vespers of Pentecost. A day, canonically, ends at midnight (Canon 202.1), so Post dominicam can only refer to Monday.

But it is true that the editio typica wasn’t entirely clear, so it is good that they clarified it in the editio typica altera.

In the credit-where-it-is-due department :tiphat: , upon re-reading the thread I see that [user]OraLabora[/user] pointed this all out way back at [post=13899222]post #8[/post]. Kudos to you, though, for noting this appears in the editio typica altera, which is more recent than the current English approved for use in the US.

tee

 

[Vico]

You beat me to it!

I checked Volume III of the editio typica altera, and on page 1280 of that volume is the office for St Ephrem. So clearly, the rubric cannot refer to Volume 3.

The Latin also indicates that Ordinary Time begins only on the day after Pentecost, I.e. Monday, not after the Second Vespers of Pentecost. A day, canonically, ends at midnight (Canon 202.1), so Post dominicam can only refer to Monday.

But it is true that the editio typica wasn’t entirely clear, so it is good that they clarified it in the editio typica altera.

Also, GILIH
84 Compline is the final prayer of the day to be said before going to bed, even if this is after midnight.

 

[FrDavid96]

Folks,

The Pascal Season ends when the Church says it ends.

The rubric is quite clear that the Easter Season ends after the conclusion of 2nd Vespers on Pentecost evening.

Explicit tempus paschale.

Rubrics like that are written by the Church.

The rubric says that it ends “here.” (or “thus ends the Easter Season” etc.) It does not say “over there” or “somewhere else.” It does not say “after Compline.”

Page numbers, on the other hand, are not official. They are done by publishers, and can (certainly will) vary from one printing to another. While they are generally reliable, they are not as reliable as the actual rubrics which the Church does control.

Once 2nd Vespers of Pentecost is over, the Easter Season is over. Done.

 

[Vico]

Folks,

The Pascal Season ends when the Church says it ends.

The rubric is quite clear that the Easter Season ends after the conclusion of 2nd Vespers on Pentecost evening.

Explicit tempus paschale.

Rubrics like that are written by the Church.

The rubric says that it ends “here.” (or “thus ends the Easter Season” etc.) It does not say “over there” or “somewhere else.” It does not say “after Compline.”

Page numbers, on the other hand, are not official. They are done by publishers, and can (certainly will) vary from one printing to another. While they are generally reliable, they are not as reliable as the actual rubrics which the Church does control.

Once 2nd Vespers of Pentecost is over, the Easter Season is over. Done.

My last post was about compline for Pentecost Sunday which may be said on Pentecost Sunday (when before midnight) or in Ordinary Time (when after midnight), but it remains the compline of Pentecost Sunday.

 

[tee_eff_em]

Folks,

The Pascal Season ends when the Church says it ends.

The rubric is quite clear that the Easter Season ends after the conclusion of 2nd Vespers on Pentecost evening.

Explicit tempus paschale.

Rubrics like that are written by the Church.

The rubric says that it ends “here.” (or “thus ends the Easter Season” etc.) It does not say “over there” or “somewhere else.” It does not say “after Compline.”

Page numbers, on the other hand, are not official. They are done by publishers, and can (certainly will) vary from one printing to another. While they are generally reliable, they are not as reliable as the actual rubrics which the Church does control.

Once 2nd Vespers of Pentecost is over, the Easter Season is over. Done.

Page numbers should (except in the most coincidental circumstances) vary from publisher to publisher. But these page numbers are those of the Vatican’s own publishing house – I think if they’d wanted to direct the prayer to “vol. III, p. nnnn”, they would have been quite capable to do so.

I won’t dispute the end of Eastertide (as the OP did not). But to answer the OP’s question:

So we know that the Easter Season ends after Second Vespers of Pentecost (in the OF).

The question is:

At Compline, shouldn’t we use anymore the excessive alleluias of Easter? That is, we won’t use the antiphons for Easter, right?

Given the choice between using options designated *Tempore Quadragesimae *and those *Tempore Paschali *(which are the only ones appearing p. 1280ff), I would opt for the latter.

In the same way that (and in answer to the OP’s second question), were I to assist at an evening Mass on Pentecost, I would expect the lighting of the Paschal candle and the use of extra alleluja’s.

:twocents:
tee