The ends justify the means in terms of God

[johnpfmcguire]

First of all, we don’t know for sure that any one person is in hell. It’s safe to say that a lot of people are especially if you put any stock in Fatima (which, by all accounts, you’d have to be mad, though not technically a heretic, to reject) or for that matter the Gospel (which categorically only heretics reject). Death is part of the salvation process. If only the saved died no one would want to be saved, then where would that land us? God has done his best, and we do our best by knowing where our line of inquiry needs to leave room for mystery and just desiring God above all things. What I see underlying one or two posts here is an immature rejection of pain and death. I guarantee you that will not avail you in understanding them. Your first task is to realistically accept them as inevitable. Don’t mistake matters of character for matters of intellect; our culture’s done plenty of that already, even “done that to death” as the saying goes, the predictable reaction by the sober but spiritually misguided being even a “culture of death.”

 

[catholictiger]

First of all, we don’t know for sure that any one person is in hell. It’s safe to say that a lot of people are especially if you put any stock in Fatima (which, by all accounts, you’d have to be mad, though not technically a heretic, to reject) or for that matter the Gospel (which categorically only heretics reject). Death is part of the salvation process. If only the saved died no one would want to be saved, then where would that land us? God has done his best, and we do our best by knowing where our line of inquiry needs to leave room for mystery and just desiring God above all things. What I see underlying one or two posts here is an immature rejection of pain and death. I guarantee you that will not avail you in understanding them. Your first task is to realistically accept them as inevitable. Don’t mistake matters of character for matters of intellect; our culture’s done plenty of that already, even “done that to death” as the saying goes, the predictable reaction by the sober but spiritually misguided being even a “culture of death.”

just answer the simple question please, this question doesn’t really affect me that much its just a question I have.

let me say a couple things real quick I understand that we don’t know who goes to hell, yes but that doesn’t the question I have, if we know some people go to hell just not who then how is death for someone who is condemned a greater good.

the if only the saved died then noone would want to be saved is a nice answer but i still think there is more then that because if I where to answer the objection with your answer I don’t think it would hold much ground.

 

[OrdinaryMelkite]

I heard Father Corapi on EWTN the other day saying that God allows Evil Things to happen so that Greater Good can come from it.

 

[JDaniel]

thanks for the response but you still didn’t answer the question well in the way I wanted it answered. You explain nicely how God is outside of time meaning he knows what our fate is but we stiil have free will and all that nice fun stuff.

CT:

What is your specific question? Yes, we have free will. Is this problematic to you, or, whomever?

but the simple question still remains if all evils bring out a greater good what is the greater good of someone dieing who God knows is not going to heaven meaning he is going to hell.

Who says all evils bring out a greater good? Can you give an example or two?

God bless,
jd

 

[catholictiger]

CT:

What is your specific question? Yes, we have free will. Is this problematic to you, or, whomever?

Who says all evils bring out a greater good? Can you give an example or two?

God bless,
jd

the question what you quoted in the second quoted

and your answer does really help things if not all evils bring out greater goods that kinda answers the question

 

[The_Exodus]

just answer the simple question please, this question doesn’t really affect me that much its just a question I have.

let me say a couple things real quick I understand that we don’t know who goes to hell, yes but that doesn’t the question I have, if we know some people go to hell just not who then how is death for someone who is condemned a greater good.

the if only the saved died then noone would want to be saved is a nice answer but i still think there is more then that because if I where to answer the objection with your answer I don’t think it would hold much ground.

I’m not sure I totally understand your question, but it seems to be: why does God allow evil to happen, to bring good out of it, if he commands his creatures not to perform evil, in order to bring about good?

Now, if you read closely, the analogy is not quite a parity. God only allows evil. He allows causes to be of themselves defective. He even allows them to do this in such a way that they are eternally damned. Hell is a difficult doctrine to come to grips with, but it is entirely logical. God is not bound to hold a defective cause in existence. If he were, no sin would take place. Yet he lets some beings fall away of themselves. He only permits evil – he does not and cannot cause it – and he permits it in order to display his righteous and holy justice which abhors sin. God wills his own goodness, and therefore wills to display his effects on his creation. His effects include justice as well as mercy. We must never forget, that his justice cannot be malicious or unjust, or else it would cease to be justice. On the other hand, God commands his creatures not to positively do evil so that good may come. There is a difference, however, between God’s permitting of evil and his command for creatures to refrain from doing it.

I hope this has answered your question.

 

[johnpfmcguire]

I wouldn’t be doing my prophetic Christian duty if I did not observe that to spend hours in questions of “Why does God ________?” is to court blasphemy and an ingratitude that borders on stark, raving lunacy. God is the only “Good Guy” there really is. God of his good graces gives sufficient account of Himself in Sacred Scripture. He did this in good faith. Also in good faith He embraced us all - and more to the point He embraced you, JDaniel - as his sons and daughters in Christ. To any reasonable human being this is enough…and so much more than enough. “All things work to the good of those who love the Lord and are called according to his purpose.” At a certain point, JDaniel, you have to ask yourself, “What is my purpose?” or “What motivates me?” I don’t know you well, but I will guarantee you that the purer your heart becomes, the cleaner your act, the more clearly you’ll see God as what He is, your Friend, your best Friend and your only Friend. Here’s a hint: Confession and Communion.

 

[JDaniel]

I wouldn’t be doing my prophetic Christian duty if I did not observe that to spend hours in questions of “Why does God ________?” is to court blasphemy and an ingratitude that borders on stark, raving lunacy. God is the only “Good Guy” there really is. God of his good graces gives sufficient account of Himself in Sacred Scripture. He did this in good faith. Also in good faith He embraced us all - and more to the point He embraced you, JDaniel - as his sons and daughters in Christ. To any reasonable human being this is enough…and so much more than enough. “All things work to the good of those who love the Lord and are called according to his purpose.” At a certain point, JDaniel, you have to ask yourself, “What is my purpose?” or “What motivates me?”

Good point, John!

God bless,
jd

 

[johnpfmcguire]

You don’t have to, but I’d love to see you elaborate on “Good point, John!” Also please see revised post above.

 

[JDaniel]

You don’t have to, but I’d love to see you elaborate on “Good point, John!” Also please see revised post above.

Would it be unkind of me to ask you to stop slinking around in the foliage and get to the point? Your monologue sounds as though you have a detrimental purpose in not being clearer.

God bless,
jd

 

[johnpfmcguire]

Have I got a nose for sarcasm or what! I think it’s fair to say I’ve been as direct as I was safe in doing, or in other words I’ve been as direct as you’ve been open. How about telling us just a tad more about what’s really gnawing at you? Would it help if I pointed out that my purpose is detrimental only to the flesh and not to the spirit? (And, yes, we are all of us enemies of one or the other.)

 

[JDaniel]

Have I got a nose for sarcasm or what! I think it’s fair to say I’ve been as direct as I was safe in doing, or in other words I’ve been as direct as you’ve been open. How about telling us just a tad more about what’s really gnawing at you? Would it help if I pointed out that my purpose is detrimental only to the flesh and not to the spirit? (And, yes, we are all of us enemies of one or the other.)

John:

Enough. I have no idea what you’re talking about, nor do I want to play 100 questions. I have looked back at my post where you are concerned and, on my life, don’t see why you are upset. Although maybe you’re not upset and I am misreading you. Would you please shed some light? The mods are not dumb. They will understand if a thing is said in charity, no matter that it be harsh. So, state your case, kind Sir.

God bless,
jd

 

[johnpfmcguire]

Well this is a pickle. What you read as upset is really directness, and what you read as indirectness is really prudence. Culture shock? Even so if we stick to the revealed truths of the Faith we should be okay communication-wise…can you dig that jive?

 

[TEPO]

If god tells us the ends can’t justify the means then why does he let us suffer to bring about a greater good.

In the beginning, man did not suffer natural death, pain, famine, etc. It was because of mans disobedience that we should all suffer.

…But what gives you the impression that God can’t apply the ends justify the means towards us? After all, He can do whatever He wants – right?

He also told Adam and Eve not to eat forbidden fruit, all the while, God knew exactly all the knowledge that would come from the fruit… So I guess it’s safe to say that God and man play by different sets of rules.

 

[TEPO]

God can strike you dead right now, and still control the depths of heaven… If we were to merely wish death upon another we are guilty of mortal sin… See the difference…?

 

[johnpfmcguire]

TEPO, thanks for the clarity. I never understood what motivated people to play like this was such a difficult issue, to linger so long on it. It is a zany game some play, too zany for my blood after awhile.

 

[JDaniel]

Well this is a pickle. What you read as upset is really directness, and what you read as indirectness is really prudence. Culture shock? Even so if we stick to the revealed truths of the Faith we should be okay communication-wise…can you dig that jive?

John:

Are you a troll?

God bless,
jd

 

[johnpfmcguire]

I do favor the a capella if that’s what you mean…(Dear God please let that be what he means.)

 

[Pieman333272]

One thing I can’t cope with is this - if God justifies the suffering inflicted on people who get the worse side of things on earth (i.e. 3rd world countries), isn’t that doing that too? Even if they’re saved by something else, like faith or good deeds or (most probably) both, isn’t God still letting the ends justify the means by not stopping the evil from happening until heaven? And possibly giving them a better state of heaven for offering up their sufferings?

 

[hazcompat]

One thing I can’t cope with is this - if God justifies the suffering inflicted on people who get the worse side of things on earth (i.e. 3rd world countries), isn’t that doing that too? Even if they’re saved by something else, like faith or good deeds or (most probably) both, isn’t God still letting the ends justify the means by not stopping the evil from happening until heaven? And possibly giving them a better state of heaven for offering up their sufferings?

This is our exile.Some love this punishment so much they cling to it rather than eternal bliss. It is on the path of suffering that the Church comes to meet man. Suffering is common to all. If you see injustice struggle against it. God became a man familiar with suffering and an acquaintance of grief. The gross inequlities in time are manmade. God declared creation good. Earthquakes, Tsunamies are parts of nature. We’re making better predictions, but physical death, until He comes, is part of life. From my grevious poverty I praise his indescribable generosity. All is Grace. Let nothing disturb your peace in Christ.

Pax et Bonum