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GKC
Guest
You are very welcome. I think you and I can do our part.
Nice meeting you.
GKC
- Status
Nice meeting you.
GKC
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Contarini
Guest
Flower_Charity,
Actually the Anglican Use parishes use the 1979 BCP (though I think they generally favor Rite One, which is very similar to the 1928 BCP with a few unfortunate cuts). Also, the actual Eucharistic Prayer used is the Roman Canon (or, in Rite II, one of the post-Vatican-II Eucharistic Prayers). Which is why worries about the Cranmerian connection are silly IMHO.
The Western Rite Orthodox do use the 1928 BCP, with some theological modifications.
In Christ,
Edwin
Actually the Anglican Use parishes use the 1979 BCP (though I think they generally favor Rite One, which is very similar to the 1928 BCP with a few unfortunate cuts). Also, the actual Eucharistic Prayer used is the Roman Canon (or, in Rite II, one of the post-Vatican-II Eucharistic Prayers). Which is why worries about the Cranmerian connection are silly IMHO.
The Western Rite Orthodox do use the 1928 BCP, with some theological modifications.
In Christ,
Edwin
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GKC
Guest
You are correct; I think there are about 8 or 9 Anglican Use parishes in the US.They usually use the 1979 Book (not a good idea, generally) adapted with some Novus Ordo-isms. No need to add "sacrfiice, it’s in the 1928 book. And in the some of the Sarum additions, IIRC.
A word about the Anglican Use parishes. Back in the late 70s, when the orthodox Anglicans began to split from the increasingly apostate ECUSA, the most Anglo-Catholic and high church Episcopal parish in our town was the Episcopal Church of the Good Shepherd. A large portion of the parish left. This group then split; one part, with the rector, went to Rome and were formed as an Anglican Use parish ( the RC parish of the Good Shepherd). The rector was, of course, ordained absolutely). The other group that left the Episcopal parish of the Good Shepherd, along with other orthodox Episcopalians from around the city, formed the Anglican Parish of the Epiphany, which is my parish.
I don’t know if the RC parish of the Good Shepherd here is still Anglican Use, or not. Generally, when the former Episcopal rector of such a parish leaves or dies, the parish becomes normal Norvo Ordo. Anglican Use is not designed for the long run.
Yes, I have met Antiochians who came from the Anglican tradition. I think one of our previous rectors may have taken that path. And yes, I think that St. Tikon is St. Tikon.
As an Anglican, I got a lot of choices, too, but I tend to stick with as high a service as I can get. Give me smells and bells and yells. And lots of candles. I hope the Latin Mass, whether NO or Tridentine, makes a full return. Preferably, Tridentine. It looks a lot like what I get at every Mass.
I think that abortificient contraceptives cause the death of an innocent human being, and that generally that’s a very bad idea and ought not be allowed. I have no problem with barrier contraception, or NFP.
Thanks for posting.
GKC
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GKC
Guest
Greetings, Edwin.
GKC
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fcb2001
Guest
to me, episocopal or anglican holy orders are invalid, so the communion recived by a catholic in an anglican church is invalid
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Serafin
Guest
Granted, and in what the CEC adheres to its founding vision and the Catholic faith it professes it could continue to be a blessing , as it has been for me and family . The rest, time will tell!
The church is not Jesus, Flower! History testifies that often we have acted more like the devil…and at times enforced and taught things that were wrong. For us, the Church is not limited to the RCC but includes us all. The dogmatic developments particular to your church after 1054 are just that… yours, but hardly the “teaching of the church”…undivided that is! Do the Orthodox also reject Jesus by objecting to papal Infallibility and the Immaculate Conception or is it just us Protestants?
Antiquity is no guarantee of infallibility, some would say the church of 2000 years ago was a lot different that today’s version. The Orthodox Church at Antioch is more ancient than that of Rome, their account of truth and yours differ slightly …are we to assume their version is a little more correct? As far as Italians, they have been wrong before …Hmmmm!
Anglo Catholics say the same thing to us about this and I agree… it can be very distasteful, but sometimes also so beautiful!
thanks for the info. What church do you go to? I hope high anglicans join the Catholic Church en masse to help fix our liturgy. I think you should celebrate the Sarum Liturgy that would be cool.
Drop papal infallibility and adress the role of the Pope in a unified Christemdom and you will have all of us …not just Anglo catholics converting in droves…but no liturgical dancing!
Blessings
Serafin
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GKC
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Greetings, fcb2001,
I have no problem with the first half of your sentence, beginning as it does “to me…”. But I’m not sure when and where you’ll find RCs receiving at an Anglican Mass. Is this something you are familiar with? If so, tell them to stop. It’s against the RCC rules.
GKC
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fcb2001
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the second part of the sentence was is a hypotheticical situation, iam just giving an example
GKC:
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GKC
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I am relieved. I like RCs to follow RCC rules.
GKC
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Serafin
Guest
RC’s take communion all the time at my parish…they do not always follow the rules!
Blessings
Serafin
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Flower_Charity
Guest
Serafin,
You keep dodging the question of authority. The orthodox do believe in the immaculate conception, but have a different way of understanding it. Besides, the Orthodox are not in full communion with Rome but there are plenty of Eastern Catholics who are. They don’t seem to have a problem with papal infallibility.
If we reject the teachings of the church, we reject Jesus. That is in the bible, “he who rejects you, rejects me”.
You have no basis on what you believe without authority. My question is, what is serafin’s authority when it comes to faith and morals? Is it the bible alone, is CEC, or is Serafin?
“…the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, all the churches must agree, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition” (Against Heresies 3:3:2 Irenaeus [A.D. 189]). -couldn’t say it better myself.
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GKC
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Oh, dear.
GKC
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JimO
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Serafin said:
“RC’s take communion all the time at my parish…they do not always follow the rules!”
I just gotta jump in here Serafin. Let’s be clear - as my Pastor is fond of saying, “Don’t judge the faith by the poor practice of some who claim it.” My earlier post, which was partially addressed by GKC laid out my concerns based on authority. I think that we can all agree that because the Church at large, including the Catholic Church, is comprised of sinners, there will never be a perfect Church until after the Second Coming. Agreed?
Now, I don’t want to restate my previous post (please read it before going on), but the bottom line is that Christ conferred His authority to the Apostles and He made no provision for dividing the Church. Paul emphasized this truth as well. Thus, with several thousand denominations, we have severed “body parts” (excuse the loose language) saying to one another “I am the Body and you are the severed part” or “We are all part of the Body”. Severed parts cannot survive. What has happened since the Reformation over and over again is the dicing up of pieces of Christ because they didn’t like the Body. Maybe this isn’t the best illustration, but you see where I’m going with this.
Anyway, I agree with Flower, you haven’t addressed the issue of authority. Where did the Church of England get the authority to separate? Subsequently, where does the authority in the Anglican Church reside to make decisions on dogma and how is that authority exercised to the member churches? Without authority a church has endless divisions and that is what is happening in every Protestant denomination.
I’ve heard it said that the authority is the Bible and that the Holy Spirit guides a given church, be it a large denomination or an independent church. Not so. The very divisions in Protestantism are based on different interpretations of Scripture. So, somebody is always wrong. Also, this doesn’t speak well of the Holy Spirit’s ability as a guide. That is why Christ provided a hierchy with authority. Individuals in the hierchy aren’t perfect, but neither were the Apostles. However, Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church.
“RC’s take communion all the time at my parish…they do not always follow the rules!”
I just gotta jump in here Serafin. Let’s be clear - as my Pastor is fond of saying, “Don’t judge the faith by the poor practice of some who claim it.” My earlier post, which was partially addressed by GKC laid out my concerns based on authority. I think that we can all agree that because the Church at large, including the Catholic Church, is comprised of sinners, there will never be a perfect Church until after the Second Coming. Agreed?
Now, I don’t want to restate my previous post (please read it before going on), but the bottom line is that Christ conferred His authority to the Apostles and He made no provision for dividing the Church. Paul emphasized this truth as well. Thus, with several thousand denominations, we have severed “body parts” (excuse the loose language) saying to one another “I am the Body and you are the severed part” or “We are all part of the Body”. Severed parts cannot survive. What has happened since the Reformation over and over again is the dicing up of pieces of Christ because they didn’t like the Body. Maybe this isn’t the best illustration, but you see where I’m going with this.
Anyway, I agree with Flower, you haven’t addressed the issue of authority. Where did the Church of England get the authority to separate? Subsequently, where does the authority in the Anglican Church reside to make decisions on dogma and how is that authority exercised to the member churches? Without authority a church has endless divisions and that is what is happening in every Protestant denomination.
I’ve heard it said that the authority is the Bible and that the Holy Spirit guides a given church, be it a large denomination or an independent church. Not so. The very divisions in Protestantism are based on different interpretations of Scripture. So, somebody is always wrong. Also, this doesn’t speak well of the Holy Spirit’s ability as a guide. That is why Christ provided a hierchy with authority. Individuals in the hierchy aren’t perfect, but neither were the Apostles. However, Christ promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church.
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Flower_Charity
Guest
JimO,
I totally agree. When you are talking to any separted christian body, it all comes down to authority. This is why the church is fragmented into thousands or more christian sects. Even in the Episcopal/Anglican churches there is like 100 different bodies. I don’t argue every doctrine or morality of the church. The root issue is authority. You’re better off striking at the foundation of their beliefs than the top.
I totally agree. When you are talking to any separted christian body, it all comes down to authority. This is why the church is fragmented into thousands or more christian sects. Even in the Episcopal/Anglican churches there is like 100 different bodies. I don’t argue every doctrine or morality of the church. The root issue is authority. You’re better off striking at the foundation of their beliefs than the top.
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GKC
Guest
I agree. Even if official Anglicanism burns down, falls over and sinks into the swamp.
GKC
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Katholikos
Guest
ByzCath,
My answer wasn’t intended to cover what Catholic priests may do privately, or within an order, but pertained to the public celebration of Mass. But thank you for your clarification.
K
Khoria_Anna
Guest
From my (admittedly limited) understanding, for all the talk of Henry on this thread, wasn’t Thomas Cranmer and those that followed that really set Anglicanism off on the wrong course into the disaster that we see today?
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GKC
Guest
Khoria Anna:
Without getting into a judgement on the latter part of your post, re: Anglcanism, the gist of what you imply is quite correct. Henry was, in his eyes, and for most of his life, a perfectly good Catholic. He never heard a Mass that wasn’t in Latin, never adopted a Reformed principle. See his Six Articles for an idea of what he believed, and enforced. He just took the Church in England private, as it were.
It was indeed Cranmer, and others, around the young King Edward that moved the CoE in a more Reformed direction. Which resulted in the Elizabethan Compromise, and a lot of Anglicans who looked at one another with suspicion, from that time on. It was the Oxford Movement, and later the Ritualists, in the 19th century, that began to move the CoE back toward its Catholic roots. Of course, for RCs, Henry’s first step was disaster enough.
Lots of history squeezed into all the above paragraphs.
GKC
Anglicanus Catholicus
Greetings, Khoria Anna,From my (admittedly limited) understanding, for all the talk of Henry on this thread, wasn’t Thomas Cranmer and those that followed that really set Anglicanism off on the wrong course into the disaster that we see today?
Without getting into a judgement on the latter part of your post, re: Anglcanism, the gist of what you imply is quite correct. Henry was, in his eyes, and for most of his life, a perfectly good Catholic. He never heard a Mass that wasn’t in Latin, never adopted a Reformed principle. See his Six Articles for an idea of what he believed, and enforced. He just took the Church in England private, as it were.
It was indeed Cranmer, and others, around the young King Edward that moved the CoE in a more Reformed direction. Which resulted in the Elizabethan Compromise, and a lot of Anglicans who looked at one another with suspicion, from that time on. It was the Oxford Movement, and later the Ritualists, in the 19th century, that began to move the CoE back toward its Catholic roots. Of course, for RCs, Henry’s first step was disaster enough.
Lots of history squeezed into all the above paragraphs.
GKC
Anglicanus Catholicus
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bboop
Guest
Having left the Episcopal Church a few years ago, I will only add – it is a very beautiful and reverential Eucharist. The ‘high’ churches outwardly resemble the best of Catholicism. Unfortunately, it is ‘theology by committee’ – without the anchor of history, the Magesterium, 2000 years of thinkers, they simply do not know what they believe. Because of this, what they believe keeps changing. The conservative churches (there are a few in LA) love the Lord and are fighting the good fight, but the heresies are from the TOP, and they are woven throughout the church. I believe.
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Serafin
Guest
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