The error of traditionalism is the same as the Pharasees.

[East_and_West]

So Jesus taught divorce is ok? Your Church teaches that ABC is ok, does it not? There are those that believe rebaptism is necessary, true?

Again, you say you honored the Pope and yet, it stopped. He held primacy and even the declaration between the Orthodox and Vatican sites that he held primacy over the universal Church. You rejected the Pope BEFORE infallibilty was defined. This wasn’t the issue and it doesn’t benefit your argument. You reject an authority set up by Christ himself that many Fathers verify. Whether you want to call it a primacy of honor or not. Your church rejected the honor due to him and it became dishonor.

No matter how many times you bring up clown masses it has nothing to do with the topic. It’s just another strawman argument.

AMEN!!! PREACH IT!!!

 

[bogoljub]

how do you know if a tradition is from God? Do you have your own version of ‘papal infallibility’?

God bless !

We know exactly what is the tradition of man ( we call it custom) and what belongs to the One Holy Apostolic and Catholic Tradition!

The Holy Tradition is directly from Christ and his Apostels and can not be changed - otherwise- we will be seperated from the true Church. The Holy Fathers and the Canons of the Church clearly tell us to hold strict to the Tradition- if we would not we would fall under anathema.

What Joab here presents is foolish because he interpretes the Scripture in his own understanding wich is contrary to the Holy Fathers and the Church ( also the rcc).

Christ never preached to abanden the Tradition, I have not come to abolish- I have come to fulfil…

The Apostels often tell people to hold fast the Tradition of the Chuch written and unwritten…

The Tradition is not something outward or unimportant- no it is the living apostolic faith and when we change it, it will change our faith, this is the reason the church fathers even in their Dogmatics wrote about how to pray and why …how u pray so u believe it can not be divided.

We do not keep Tradition for itself no- we keep Tradition as the authentic way to God. So do have the authentic experience of God - I think not. This experience is testified by thousends of Saints and all the fathers. And this experience must be the same today otherwise we will be decepted !

It is not enough to have a System of Dogmas and to go on Synday to Mass - the whole life must be changed - metanoia.
We have to life the Dogma and experience it and to experience it we need a method and this method is the Tradition wich will lead us to this true and authentic experience.

Tradition alone can not save us - we have to life Tradition ! But Tradition and charity are not contrary absolute not, to be obedient to Tradition will lead us to true charity and not a secular sentiment !

The Fathers say : Christ does not want mercinaries he wants genuine strugglers !

IN CHRIST

 

[chrisb]

AMEN!!! PREACH IT!!!

That is not ‘preaching’. That is simply an emotional outburst. You can catch one every Sunday at any Baptist Church. Emotionalism is alive and well even among Catholics… Hurrah!

Triumphalism isn’t sexy no matter who is practicing it.

 

[bogoljub]

So Jesus taught divorce is ok? Your Church teaches that ABC is ok, does it not? There are those that believe rebaptism is necessary, true?

Again, you say you honored the Pope and yet, it stopped. He held primacy and even the declaration between the Orthodox and Vatican sites that he held primacy over the universal Church. You rejected the Pope BEFORE infallibilty was defined. This wasn’t the issue and it doesn’t benefit your argument. You reject an authority set up by Christ himself that many Fathers verify. Whether you want to call it a primacy of honor or not. Your church rejected the honor due to him and it became dishonor.

No matter how many times you bring up clown masses it has nothing to do with the topic. It’s just another strawman argument.

God bless!

Your arguments are in vain. Not we have changed to honor the Pope - the Pope has changed his duties and his Papacy- that’s the point.

If the Pope would be the same we would honor him as before of course- but the Popes today are not the same like St. Gregory or St. Leo - please be true - u know this and I know this. You know that many rcc theologians say the same as the orthodox do.
Do u really know what happened 1054 I doubt u know ??

The Popes were more and more arrugant and proud that at one time we could not accept anymore and it was right - Glory to God he protected us from such deception ! And we can see clearly the outcome today of this deception how millions of christians are lead to blaspemie and anti christian behavier.

When u want to talk aobut divorce ok let’s start a new threat ! But let me answer short. Usually in orthodoxy we do not allow divorce-we only should be married once ( that’s the ideal of course) but the Holy fathers like St. Basil the great said ( in his canons) that it is a shame for the church but it is better to marry a second time than to lif in open adultery.
The church blesses such couple ( without crowning) after a long periode of repetence !

So the Ideal is high but we are often too weak to keep this ideal and the Church is a loving Mother and not an inhuman monster !

I know some rcc who were married but after years they were divorce and live now with a new partner and they are not allowed to receive any Mystery - they are outside the Church is this correct ?

And please notice that no one is more christian or more catholic, orthodox than St. Basil the great. And please notice that when St. Basil wrote this he also was catholic.
So I hope u see that your arguments are in vain.

In CHRIST

 

[jam070406]

God bless!

Your arguments are in vain. Not we have changed to honor the Pope - the Pope has changed his duties and his Papacy- that’s the point.

If the Pope would be the same we would honor him as before of course- but the Popes today are not the same like St. Gregory or St. Leo - please be true - u know this and I know this. You know that many rcc theologians say the same as the orthodox do.
Do u really know what happened 1054 I doubt u know ??

The Popes were more and more arrugant and proud that at one time we could not accept anymore and it was right - Glory to God he protected us from such deception ! And we can see clearly the outcome today of this deception how millions of christians are lead to blaspemie and anti christian behavier.

When u want to talk aobut divorce ok let’s start a new threat ! But let me answer short. Usually in orthodoxy we do not allow divorce-we only should be married once ( that’s the ideal of course) but the Holy fathers like St. Basil the great said ( in his canons) that it is a shame for the church but it is better to marry a second time than to lif in open adultery.
The church blesses such couple ( without crowning) after a long periode of repetence !

So the Ideal is high but we are often too weak to keep this ideal and the Church is a loving Mother and not an inhuman monster !

I know some rcc who were married but after years they were divorce and live now with a new partner and they are not allowed to receive any Mystery - they are outside the Church is this correct ?

And please notice that no one is more christian or more catholic, orthodox than St. Basil the great. And please notice that when St. Basil wrote this he also was catholic.
So I hope u see that your arguments are in vain.

In CHRIST

So you will only honor the position if the inidvidual person meets your criteria of what it due honor.

 

[Joab_Anias]

Point taken. Christ did envision that some Christians would believe that traditional doctrine could be divorced from traditional expressions of doctrine. However, I’m sure he doesn’t support such dualism.

Yes I am sure as well.

This is true, as is what I said. The Gospel is the motivation and power of the traditions, and the traditions give the Gospel power in people’s life. It’s both/and and not either/or.

I agree its both/and. Always have. However only the Gospel is perfect. Tradtitions are left open to the interpretation of the Gospel and should be. If those traditions are placing a stumbling block in front of Christian unity they must be renewed.

You’re forgetting that the Church speaks with the authority of God. The traditions established by the ancient Church are not mere traditions of men; they were established by the God-bearing Fathers and Mothers of the Church and have been sanctioned for use by the Body of Christ. These traditions truly come from God, have been approved by God and must be respected as such.

I definitly respect tradition. I don’t think I am forgetting the authority of God speaking through the Church. I feel I am remembering the promise of God that the Holy Spririt will lead us into all truth. This act of leading is a process that can renew our previous understandings making them wrong. This is exhibited in all the councils denouncing false traditions and doctrines.

What kind of spirit would want us to change the ancient boundaries of our Fathers?

Ah, it can be either the spirit of the deciever or the Holy Spirit. We must be careful and always defer to the deliberation of the Church in this regard.

In Orthodoxy, we think more about reforming our own lives through repentance than in reforming the traditions of our Faith.

As do we in Catholicism. I foremost look to reform myself. Just as I reform myself so does this reflect in the Church. The Church isn’t perfect as far as it is defiled by men. Its this defilement that requires attention.

Doctrine is dividing Christians too. Must we sacrifice it in order to have unity? It’s not our fault that non-Orthodox have lost fidelity to ancient traditions, just as it isn’t our fault that they have lost sight of ancient doctrine. Our duty is to remain constant in the Faith and practice of the Holy Fathers and labor for the return of others to the Church.

Doctrine may cause divisions but Dogma as understood through the leading of the Holy Spirit never should. If one departs from the revealed truth of God through the work of the Holy Spirit through the Church then this is a sure sign of dissent from Gods will. Its our utmost duty to ascend to the revealed truth of God through the Holy Spirit in its dogma and then weigh our traditions against those truths. To do otherwise is to place a stumbling block before our brethren. Look at the traditions of the Church that have been reformed and how they caused divisions. i.e.: Those of the schism and of the reformation. Those traditions have either been abolished or reformed and such work is often called to little to late or innovations. I would then ask why do the divisions persists? Let me give you another scenario, If I cause a brother harm through my own faults and then reform myself yet he fails to forgive me, woe to me who by the fault came but am I then more at fault because he fails to forgive me? I must continue on right?

Peace.

 

[LilyM]

When u want to talk aobut divorce ok let’s start a new threat ! But let me answer short. Usually in orthodoxy we do not allow divorce-we only should be married once ( that’s the ideal of course) but the Holy fathers like St. Basil the great said ( in his canons) that it is a shame for the church but it is better to marry a second time than to lif in open adultery.
The church blesses such couple ( without crowning) after a long periode of repetence !

So you’re saying Christ was an inhuman monster setting an ideal that was too high for most of us when He said ‘whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery’? Or when He said ‘if you love me you will keep my commands’ - meaning ‘thou shalt not commit adultery’ among the others? Then you’re saying that He’s no different from the Pharisees he criticised for putting unbearable burdens on people’s backs.

And where - where - is the repentance in a couple who enter into an adulterous relationship and say they’re sorry but fully intend to continue in it? Repentance means someone genuinely desires to cease committing that sin, not that they both continue and seek the Church’s blessing upon that sin!

 

[bogoljub]

So you’re saying Christ was an inhuman monster setting an ideal that was too high for most of us when He said ‘whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery’? Or when He said ‘if you love me you will keep my commands’ - meaning ‘thou shalt not commit adultery’ among the others? Then you’re saying that He’s no different from the Pharisees he criticised for putting unbearable burdens on people’s backs.

And where - where - is the repentance in a couple who enter into an adulterous relationship and say they’re sorry but fully intend to continue in it? Repentance means someone genuinely desires to cease committing that sin, not that they both continue and seek the Church’s blessing upon that sin!

God bless!

No I did not say that ! But do u know how proud yourr post is ?
You think you are better than the great Fathers of the church !

So u think u know better than the Cappadocian ? You have more strictness than the Pillars of true faith ? O I see.

But when u are so strict in holding all commandments why does your church break one commandment after the other ? Why set u aside on Canon after the other ? Why set u aside all the Traditions -the fasting the prayer of the hours, the Clown Mass is shortend to 45 min …???

It is really funny you put aside everything that is possible but with a second blessing ( wich the great Fathers allowed) you have problems - really funny.

So why does your church not stop committing sin and even bless it ? You fall from one extreme into the other. Before accusing others of comitting sin you first should stop it !

IN CHRIST

 

[bogoljub]

So you will only honor the position if the inidvidual person meets your criteria of what it due honor.

God bless !

Of course - do u think I will honor an innovator wich is under anathema ? If I would do I would be guilty of the same.
Do you honor Arius or Nestorius or do u honor the great heretic Pope honorius ?

No !!

 

[Joab_Anias]

God bless!

No I did not say that ! But do u know how proud yourr post is ?
You think you are better than the great Fathers of the church !

So u think u know better than the Cappadocian ? You have more strictness than the Pillars of true faith ? O I see.

But when u are so strict in holding all commandments why does your church break one commandment after the other ? Why set u aside on Canon after the other ? Why set u aside all the Traditions -the fasting the prayer of the hours, the Clown Mass is shortend to 45 min …???

It is really funny you put aside everything that is possible but with a second blessing ( wich the great Fathers allowed) you have problems - really funny.

So why does your church not stop committing sin and even bless it ? You fall from one extreme into the other. Before accusing others of comitting sin you first should stop it !

IN CHRIST

Please stop referring to the NO Mass as Clown Mass.

Mat 15:19 For from the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false testimonies, blasphemies.

Mar 3:28 Amen I say to you that all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and the blasphemies wherewith they shall blaspheme:

Luk 5:21 And the scribes and Pharisees began to think, saying: Who is this who speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone?

1Ti 6:4 * He is proud, knowing nothing, but sick about questions and strifes of words; from which arise envies, contentions, blasphemies, evil suspicions, *

Peace.

 

[pnewton]

God bless !

Of course - do u think I will honor an innovator wich is under anathema ?

God bless? I am reminded of James 3:9.

What did anyone here do to justify such an emotional outburst? You accused the Catholic Church of breaking the commandments, damn us with anathema and do this on a Catholic webnsite. I thougth such rampant, hate-filled anti-catholicism was restricted to fundamentalists and atheists. I did not know there were others

First, anathema is no longer a canonical penatly, so no one can be under it. Second, accusing others of sin without specifics is empty and vain. If this is an example of what was going on in the Orthodox forum, I am glad they closed it.

 

[bogoljub]

God bless? I am reminded of James 3:9.

What did anyone here do to justify such an emotional outburst? You accused the Catholic Church of breaking the commandments, damn us with anathema and do this on a Catholic webnsite. I thougth such rampant, hate-filled anti-catholicism was restricted to fundamentalists and atheists. I did not know there were others

First, anathema is no longer a canonical penatly, so no one can be under it. Second, accusing others of sin without specifics is empty and vain. If this is an example of what was going on in the Orthodox forum, I am glad they closed it.

God bless u!

No it was not an emotional outburst ! I did not accuse, it is a fact, and please you did first.
Yes he is under anathema, would I tell u something else I would ly.
I am not hate filled, I hate no one but we do not compromise in faith matters.

You are wrong anathema is a canonical penalty and can be under.but perhaps your church even changed this ???

When u are tooo weak to discuss and it is hard to read the truth than do not participate in such discussions.

But again I can tell there is no hate against catholics - my intention is not to blame others or hurt others ,we orthodox love all but we say what we believe ! We love all people but of course God and our Holy Church too. Would u prefer when I would tell u lies or when I would not tell what I really think ?

IN CHRIST

 

[ForeverAdam]

If those traditions are placing a stumbling block in front of Christian unity they must be renewed.

Christian unity entails unity in the ancient Faith. The ancient Faith entails both early Christian doctrine and practice. Neither can be sacrificed in order to arrive at authentic unity.

This act of leading is a process that can renew our previous understandings making them wrong. This is exhibited in all the councils denouncing false traditions and doctrines.

The Councils, which condemned false doctrines and traditions, condemned those who sought to change the traditional doctrine and practice of the Church. Far from reformers being lauded as ones who would renew the Church, their desire for innovation lead to their condemnation. This is still true in the Orthodox Church.

The Church isn’t perfect as far as it is defiled by men. Its this defilement that requires attention.

Never has it been known in the Church that the defilement of the Church is in her traditions. Rather, these traditions have always been given to the faithful to help them out of their personal defilement.

I would then ask why do the divisions persists? Let me give you another scenario, If I cause a brother harm through my own faults and then reform myself yet he fails to forgive me, woe to me who by the fault came but am I then more at fault because he fails to forgive me? I must continue on right?

Allow me to posit another scenario. Say that two Churches, even while apart in doctrine and practice, still maintain a common principle of respect for traditional expressions of Faith. One of these Churches proceeds to shatter this unity by choosing to “update” herself. This results in the two Churches being further apart than before. Why should the Church that didn’t change support this divisive move and thus confirm that innovation bears good fruit? My friend, we’re the Church that didn’t change the idea that traditional expressions of Faith are to be maintained. We consider your Church’s abandonment of many ancient traditions at Vatican II (and the implementation of that council) to have been a divisive move and we won’t support it. Do you not see how innovation only leads to division and not unity?

God bless,

Adam

 

[ForeverAdam]

If you define Tradition as outside pomp such as beards, leavened bread, ritual practice etc. then Orthodox have done well. If Tradition is understood as adhering to the deposit of Faith in the protection of the Holy Spirit then the Orthodox are slipping down a slippery slope.

As you know, Orthodoxy defines Holy Tradition as both traditional doctrine and practice. We’ve never divorced one from the other.

God bless,

Adam

 

[jam070406]

Christian unity entails unity in the ancient Faith. The ancient Faith entails both early Christian doctrine and practice. Neither can be sacrificed in order to arrive at authentic unity.

The Councils, which condemned false doctrines and traditions, condemned those who sought to change the traditional doctrine and practice of the Church. Far from reformers being lauded as ones who would renew the Church, their desire for innovation lead to their condemnation. This is still true in the Orthodox Church.

Never has it been known in the Church that the defilement of the Church is in her traditions. Rather, these traditions have always been given to the faithful to help them out of their personal defilement.

Allow me to posit another scenario. Say that two Churches, even while apart in doctrine and practice, still maintain a common principle of respect for traditional expressions of Faith. One of these Churches proceeds to shatter this unity by choosing to “update” herself. This results in the two Churches being further apart than before. Why should the Church that didn’t change support this divisive move and thus confirm that innovation bears good fruit? My friend, we’re the Church that didn’t change the idea that traditional expressions of Faith are to be maintained. We consider your Church’s abandonment of many ancient traditions at Vatican II (and the implementation of that council) to have been a divisive move and we won’t support it. Do you not see how innovation only leads to division and not unity?

God bless,

Adam

Vatican II was not a departure from Tradition. Radical liberalism, Modernism & poor education of the lay was the depature from Catholic Tradition.

 

[jam070406]

As you know, Orthodoxy defines Holy Tradition as both traditional doctrine and practice. We’ve never divorced one from the other.

God bless,

Adam

Nor has the Catholic Church.

 

[bogoljub]

Christian unity entails unity in the ancient Faith. The ancient Faith entails both early Christian doctrine and practice. Neither can be sacrificed in order to arrive at authentic unity.

The Councils, which condemned false doctrines and traditions, condemned those who sought to change the traditional doctrine and practice of the Church. Far from reformers being lauded as ones who would renew the Church, their desire for innovation lead to their condemnation. This is still true in the Orthodox Church.

Never has it been known in the Church that the defilement of the Church is in her traditions. Rather, these traditions have always been given to the faithful to help them out of their personal defilement.

Allow me to posit another scenario. Say that two Churches, even while apart in doctrine and practice, still maintain a common principle of respect for traditional expressions of Faith. One of these Churches proceeds to shatter this unity by choosing to “update” herself. This results in the two Churches being further apart than before. Why should the Church that didn’t change support this divisive move and thus confirm that innovation bears good fruit? My friend, we’re the Church that didn’t change the idea that traditional expressions of Faith are to be maintained. We consider your Church’s abandonment of many ancient traditions at Vatican II (and the implementation of that council) to have been a divisive move and we won’t support it. Do you not see how innovation only leads to division and not unity?

God bless,

Adam

God bless u my brother in Christ !

Excellent ! It is a pleasure to read your post. Thank u very much.

Glory be to God !

 

[ForeverAdam]

Vatican II was not a departure from Tradition. Radical liberalism, Modernism & poor education of the lay was the depature from Catholic Tradition.

I somewhat agree with you. Vatican II wasn’t perfect and made its own innovations. However, the actual documents of Vatican II didn’t sanction what Paul VI did to the traditional Roman Liturgy and countless other traditions. In fact, parts of Vatican II held the potential to re-anchor much of Catholicism in her Orthodox heritage. The forfeiting of this opportunity is one of the two great opportunities that were lost in the 20th century, IMO.

God bless,

Adam

 

[Joab_Anias]

Christian unity entails unity in the ancient Faith. The ancient Faith entails both early Christian doctrine and practice. Neither can be sacrificed in order to arrive at authentic unity.

The Councils, which condemned false doctrines and traditions, condemned those who sought to change the traditional doctrine and practice of the Church. Far from reformers being lauded as ones who would renew the Church, their desire for innovation lead to their condemnation. This is still true in the Orthodox Church.

Never has it been known in the Church that the defilement of the Church is in her traditions. Rather, these traditions have always been given to the faithful to help them out of their personal defilement.

Allow me to posit another scenario. Say that two Churches, even while apart in doctrine and practice, still maintain a common principle of respect for traditional expressions of Faith. One of these Churches proceeds to shatter this unity by choosing to “update” herself. This results in the two Churches being further apart than before. Why should the Church that didn’t change support this divisive move and thus confirm that innovation bears good fruit? My friend, we’re the Church that didn’t change the idea that traditional expressions of Faith are to be maintained. We consider your Church’s abandonment of many ancient traditions at Vatican II (and the implementation of that council) to have been a divisive move and we won’t support it. Do you not see how innovation only leads to division and not unity?

God bless,

Adam

Why do you consider changes so the Church may be more efficatious to be innovation?

Thats a protestant term used by the likes of Jack Chick.

Nothings is made up but comes from the complete revelation of Christ.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,

Mar 7:15 There is nothing from outside the man, having entered into him, which is able to defile him. But the things going out from him, those are the things defiling the man.

2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never attaining to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[Harmony1988]

Traditionalism is a problem when they they take precedence over Godly things.

Tradition is a good thing, but like anything else, when it takes precedence over what God wants done, it’s a problem.